I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

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ronno2018
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I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

:oops:

Moved my accounts from Wells Fargo Advisors to Vanguard a couple months ago and was continuing my swap out project from VTI (total USA) to ESGV (socially responsible total USA) across four accounts, when I spaced out and placed a second order a couple days after the first amount I sold/then bought.

Basically the "Funds available to trade" amount at Vanguard does not update as quickly as Wells Trade (I think). So when I glanced at it prior to the second trade, it said I had $112K available when in fact it should have said $28K which was the proceeds of my second trade.

The lesson I have learned is just wait a few days to allow the sale proceeds to make it into "Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund (Settlement fund)", then buy from that.

To fix the error I just ended up calling Vanguard customer service, they conferenced me into a "trading desk/market maker" Vanguard guy and he undid the purchase by calling someone else. It was nice in that I probably had a $100 loss since the ETF did decline a bit over 48 hours. Pretty nice customer service although the phone hold time was 10 minutes.

It does seem odd that an individual IRA account would allow you to overbuy like that -- maybe they need to change their setup a bit?
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abuss368
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by abuss368 »

Accidents happen and one has to be careful but I take it was a good experience. Glad to hear Vanguard customer service could help and resolve.
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unclescrooge
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by unclescrooge »

abuss368 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:08 pm Accidents happen and one has to be careful but I take it was a good experience. Glad to hear Vanguard customer service could help and resolve.
It's unfortunate it took human intervention to fix the short comings of their technology.

But I guess it could've been worse.
livesoft
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by livesoft »

I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything in real-time, so you really have no chance of not repeating this.
[edited for typos]
Last edited by livesoft on Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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abuss368
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by abuss368 »

livesoft wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything is real-time, so you really have no chance of repeating this.
Interesting.
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Trader Joe
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by Trader Joe »

ronno2018 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:04 pm :oops:

Moved my accounts from Wells Fargo Advisors to Vanguard a couple months ago and was continuing my swap out project from VTI (total USA) to ESGV (socially responsible total USA) across four accounts, when I spaced out and placed a second order a couple days after the first amount I sold/then bought.

Basically the "Funds available to trade" amount at Vanguard does not update as quickly as Wells Trade (I think). So when I glanced at it prior to the second trade, it said I had $112K available when in fact it should have said $28K which was the proceeds of my second trade.

The lesson I have learned is just wait a few days to allow the sale proceeds to make it into "Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund (Settlement fund)", then buy from that.

To fix the error I just ended up calling Vanguard customer service, they conferenced me into a "trading desk/market maker" Vanguard guy and he undid the purchase by calling someone else. It was nice in that I probably had a $100 loss since the ETF did decline a bit over 48 hours. Pretty nice customer service although the phone hold time was 10 minutes.

It does seem odd that an individual IRA account would allow you to overbuy like that -- maybe they need to change their setup a bit?
I am vert happy to hear that you were able to work with Vanguard Customer Service to fix your error.
sambb
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by sambb »

unclescrooge wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:18 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:08 pm Accidents happen and one has to be careful but I take it was a good experience. Glad to hear Vanguard customer service could help and resolve.
It's unfortunate it took human intervention to fix the short comings of their technology.

But I guess it could've been worse.
very true. yet another technology woe at vanguard. unfortunate.
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Stinky
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by Stinky »

unclescrooge wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:18 pm
It's unfortunate it took human intervention to fix the short comings of their technology.
Sounds like 1990's (or earlier) technology to me.
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260chrisb
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by 260chrisb »

livesoft wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything in real-time, so you really have no chance of not repeating this.
[edited for typos]
Not at all? You? Not at all?
livesoft
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by livesoft »

I have not made a transaction at Vanguard in about 10 years. My spouse has some accounts there. We do not have any ETFs at Vanguard itself. I did in the past, but it was just too painful.

When I have made a transaction, it has only been to get screen captures to post here at Bogleheads.org on how to do things.
Last edited by livesoft on Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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retired@50
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by retired@50 »

The OP seems to blame himself for the error, and everyone else blames Vanguard technology.

Curious.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Topic Author
ronno2018
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

retired@50 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:55 pm The OP seems to blame himself for the error, and everyone else blames Vanguard technology.

Curious.

Regards,
Well I think it is a combo. I should have paid more attention, but definitely their web interface could use some tweaking. They need to look at their competitor's web tools and sites.

They are such a good deal for average investors -- we are willing to put up with a fair amount of user unfriendliness to get the efficiency of their platform.
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by Billionaire »

livesoft wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything in real-time, so you really have no chance of not repeating this.
[edited for typos]
It's inexcusable.
MotoTrojan
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by MotoTrojan »

Lucky you only lost $100 on this amount of equity exposure.

Wonder if you’d get to keep it if the market went up ;).
ohai
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ohai »

Do you have margin in your account? If not, they allowed you to make an invalid trade and this is a serious operational error. If you call them and complain more, I am pretty sure they will at least refund you the $100.
Topic Author
ronno2018
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

ohai wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:25 pm Do you have margin in your account? If not, they allowed you to make an invalid trade and this is a serious operational error. If you call them and complain more, I am pretty sure they will at least refund you the $100.
Well, they just reimbursed me in full, I just said that theoretically I could have lost money on the mistake if I did not call them and instead just sold the position on my own. So they did right by me but it was a bit stressful. Stress that would have been avoided if they had a more understandable web site.
Topic Author
ronno2018
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

ohai wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:25 pm Do you have margin in your account? If not, they allowed you to make an invalid trade and this is a serious operational error. If you call them and complain more, I am pretty sure they will at least refund you the $100.
Margin has to be pre-approved according to their documentation, I did not have pre-approval. So why was I allowed to purchase more than I could fund in a traditional IRA? It is a mystery. Maybe I need to talk to the SEC?
Topic Author
ronno2018
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

:(
MotoTrojan wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:20 pm Lucky you only lost $100 on this amount of equity exposure.

Wonder if you’d get to keep it if the market went up ;).
The trade desk basically let me keep some cash (was more efficient for them I think) and suggested I could benefit a bit if I bought again at the then lower market price! Unfortunately the market went up as I talked to him... :(
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by JakeyLee »

Apparently I'm the only pleb here that has had Vanguard save me more times than I can remember. In 28 years I've had disastrous experiences with Schwab, Fidelity, Ameritrade, and yes... vangaurd. When the dust settled I have realized that almost none of these experiences were true disasters. But I'll be darned if they didn't feel that way in the moment. I'm glad this was resolved. All good... Nothing to see here.
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by whodidntante »

livesoft wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything in real-time, so you really have no chance of not repeating this.
[edited for typos]
Hmmm. Maybe that's why there seem to be so many people riding the "ETFs are bad" train around here. Choo choo!

ETFs work fine at the evil for-profit brokers. That's probably because those brokers are trying to trick us with lower costs and better services.
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by neilpilot »

whodidntante wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:43 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:19 pm I don't use Vanguard because it doesn't update anything in real-time, so you really have no chance of not repeating this.
[edited for typos]
Hmmm. Maybe that's why there seem to be so many people riding the "ETFs are bad" train around here. Choo choo!

ETFs work fine at the evil for-profit brokers. That's probably because those brokers are trying to trick us with lower costs and better services.
In other words, ETFs are bad if you use a bad trading platform?
livesoft
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by livesoft »

Someone else wrote about another incident in this old post:
I go senile, day trade on margin, wash sale, and...
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by TomatoTomahto »

JakeyLee wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:40 pm Apparently I'm the only pleb here that has had Vanguard save me more times than I can remember. In 28 years I've had disastrous experiences with Schwab, Fidelity, Ameritrade, and yes... vangaurd. When the dust settled I have realized that almost none of these experiences were true disasters. But I'll be darned if they didn't feel that way in the moment. I'm glad this was resolved. All good... Nothing to see here.
I haven’t had Vanguard save me, but the only time I’ve had a brokerage error cost me money was at Fidelity. Yes, the Fidelity whose customer service everyone seems to tout.

Something about complaining about Vanguard seems to make posters feel like iconoclasts, which is silly since this isn’t a Vanguard site, but rather a site related to Bogle. If you don’t like Vanguard, vote with your feet and then let it go.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
drzzzzz
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by drzzzzz »

This should never have happened in an IRA account since that means you are trading on margin which isnt allowed by the IRS in an IRA account. You can use unsettled funds, but per your post you were over that amount with your second "accidental" trade.
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unclescrooge
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by unclescrooge »

Stinky wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:49 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:18 pm
It's unfortunate it took human intervention to fix the short comings of their technology.
Sounds like 1990's (or earlier) technology to me.
Yup.

The technology required to prevent this user error is trivial, and is standard practice at pretty much every other brokerage.

While I use a couple of Vanguard ETFs, I would never use their platform.
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ronno2018
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Re: I just accidentally bought $83K in ETF stock

Post by ronno2018 »

unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:55 pm
Stinky wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:49 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:18 pm
It's unfortunate it took human intervention to fix the short comings of their technology.
Sounds like 1990's (or earlier) technology to me.
Yup.

The technology required to prevent this user error is trivial, and is standard practice at pretty much every other brokerage.

While I use a couple of Vanguard ETFs, I would never use their platform.
It has been an educational few months at Vanguard for me. It is definitely an investment web platform and not a trading one. I only have a few more trades to get my portfolio simplified and optimized, and then just have re-balancing events going forward. I would use their advisory services but I am too frugal...
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