Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I am thinking about signing up for the IB stock lending program, and would like to be sure that there are no tax consequences. I read on one forum that dividends are payed in lieu, although in the IB FAQ it says that dividends are payed, and not in lieu.
Does anyone have experience with the program -- are there any consequences from a tax perspective; does the W8 look any different when you are lending out the stocks?
EDIT: I meant the form 1099.
cheers,
Sean
Does anyone have experience with the program -- are there any consequences from a tax perspective; does the W8 look any different when you are lending out the stocks?
EDIT: I meant the form 1099.
cheers,
Sean
Last edited by sean.mcgrath on Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I've never received a payment in lieu. I always get dividends.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Thanks, Joe. And it is indistinguishable on the W8?
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I don't live in America and haven't seen a W-8 in decades, so I have no idea.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Ah. Ok, thanks.
EDIT: I meant 1099 form; was mixing them up.
EDIT: I meant 1099 form; was mixing them up.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
What stocks are you lending? How much do you earn from lending?
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
They're normal dividends so...they look like normal dividends on a 1099-DIV. I guess I'm not sure what you're asking, exactly.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:21 am Ah. Ok, thanks.
EDIT: I meant 1099 form; was mixing them up.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
IB has a program where they are authorized to lend your shares (e.g., for shorting). In my case it would be ETFs. They manage it and choose what/when/etc.
The return is not magnificent: about 0.02% of my assets per annum, if I calculate correctly. Still, it is free money, and would add almost 1% to my safe withdrawal amount forever
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I don't hold any stocks, only ETFs.
In that account I have EMGF, GSLC, IEMG, REET, RZV. I earn anywhere from $3 a month to $380 a month. But it depends massively on your portfolio size (obviously) and what you hold. I don't think my IEMG has ever been borrowed, for instance. What gets borrowed also changes substantially over time. From February to April EMGF was borrowed heavily. But no one has borrowed any of it since September.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
It might have just been out of date. Another Boglehead poster mentioned problems with payments in lieu on IB. But his experience was from a few years ago, whereas mine is current. So it is possible they upgraded/fixed their systems. Or maybe he was just unlucky. I'm not sure IB guarantees you won't get payments in lieu in every single possible circumstance. My recollection is they just promise to make a best effort to avoid it. Presumably you can lend to someone and they can decide not to return it the next day. I'm not sure securities lending has deadlines like "it must be returned by Friday".sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:38 amThanks, that is the answer I was looking for. The question stems from paranoia, due to some misinformation on a Dutch forum.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Hmm, it looks like their message "Positions that may be eligible for Stock Yield. Potential for additional annualized income of xxx" on the activity statement varies wildly by month. It could be more income than I'd realized: the estimated additional income for October was 9x November.AlohaJoe wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 am In that account I have EMGF, GSLC, IEMG, REET, RZV. I earn anywhere from $3 a month to $380 a month. But it depends massively on your portfolio size (obviously) and what you hold. I don't think my IEMG has ever been borrowed, for instance. What gets borrowed also changes substantially over time. From February to April EMGF was borrowed heavily. But no one has borrowed any of it since September.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Hmm, when I go into my account settings to sign up, there is this in the IB Fully Paid Securities Lending Program Disclosure:
I'll give it a try anyway and see what happens this year.Potential Adverse Tax Consequences from Receiving Cash Payments in Lieu of Dividends on Loaned Shares 1
When you lend your Fully-Paid Securities, you are entitled to receive the amount of all dividends and distributions made on or in respect of the loaned securities. However, these cash payments may be considered "in lieu of" dividends. If you are a U.S. taxpayer, cash payments in lieu of dividends do not qualify for the same tax treatment as "qualified dividends" and are taxed as normal ordinary income (up to 39.6%) instead of the preferential qualified dividend rate of 20% (U.S. federal income tax rates quoted here are for 2016 and are subject to change).
IB may be required to withhold tax on payments in lieu of dividends on U.S. and other country stocks and interest paid to you unless an exception applies. IB intends to treat the payments to you on the collateral under the program as interest although there can be no assurance the tax authorities will agree.
If you permit IB to borrow securities from you through the IB Stock Yield Enhancement Program and you are a U.S. taxpayer, IB may recall loaned shares from the borrower prior to a dividend, so as to reduce potential negative tax consequences to you. However, it is solely within IB's discretion to recall a loan and IB makes no guarantee it will recall a loan prior to a dividend. With respect to other corporate actions affecting loaned shares, non-cash distributions that you are entitled to receive in connection with ownership of loaned securities will be added to the loaned securities on the date of distribution and will be transferred to you at termination of the loan.
Special tax considerations may arise if shares of master limited partnerships or publicly traded partnerships are loaned out under the IB Stock Yield Enhancement Program or Self-Directed Fully-Paid Securities Lending Program. You are encouraged to consult the issuer's prospectus or your tax advisor for further information.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Do you have any costs to hold/ trade the etf's at IB ? Are you using Lite or Professional?AlohaJoe wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 amI don't hold any stocks, only ETFs.
In that account I have EMGF, GSLC, IEMG, REET, RZV. I earn anywhere from $3 a month to $380 a month. But it depends massively on your portfolio size (obviously) and what you hold. I don't think my IEMG has ever been borrowed, for instance. What gets borrowed also changes substantially over time. From February to April EMGF was borrowed heavily. But no one has borrowed any of it since September.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
These are probably dumb questions but.......
- When you lend a security are you still owning it? Why would entities want to borrow my ETF when they could just buy it themselves on the market?
- What happens if the price of the security rises/falls significantly while it is being lent?
- Is there some way you lose/gain on price fluctuations while it is lent, or is it exactly the same as if you hadn't joined the SYEP?
- Re: the tax consequences IF dividends were to be paid in lieu..... what is the different tax treatment between an actual dividend and one paid in lieu?
Thanks....
- When you lend a security are you still owning it? Why would entities want to borrow my ETF when they could just buy it themselves on the market?
- What happens if the price of the security rises/falls significantly while it is being lent?
- Is there some way you lose/gain on price fluctuations while it is lent, or is it exactly the same as if you hadn't joined the SYEP?
- Re: the tax consequences IF dividends were to be paid in lieu..... what is the different tax treatment between an actual dividend and one paid in lieu?
Thanks....
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Hi Occam,occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:13 am These are probably dumb questions but.......
- When you lend a security are you still owning it? Why would entities want to borrow my ETF when they could just buy it themselves on the market?
- What happens if the price of the security rises/falls significantly while it is being lent?
- Is there some way you lose/gain on price fluctuations while it is lent, or is it exactly the same as if you hadn't joined the SYEP?
- Re: the tax consequences IF dividends were to be paid in lieu..... what is the different tax treatment between an actual dividend and one paid in lieu?
Thanks....
I am definitely not an expert. They borrow the ETF in order to short it: they borrow it and immediately sell it; then they have to buy another one to return the loan at the end of the short period. They are hoping the second share is cheaper, of course.
In my opinion, during that period you don't actually own it; however, you don't see any difference re. losses/gains on your investment during that period. Re. in lieu: I was worried about tax consequences for capital gains and dividends paid in lieu (as the US has a tax treaty with the Netherlands that explicitly covers dividends, and I'm not sure whether it would cover in lieu). In the end I decided to go ahead without having 100% guarantees, as it seems to work fine. In the end, my conclusion: it is free money, but not much of it (only a percentage of shares get lent, typically paying me up to 1% interest during the lending period. In practice, my best guess is that it amounts to 0.2% additional return). I'm a bit on the fence about whether that is really worthwhile. I don't worry about getting paid back, as IB seems to have a robust process in place.
As to the mechanics, according to Interactive Brokers:
- Clients maintain full control of loaned shares with no impairment as to: Market exposure; The ability to sell at any time without prior notice; The representation of holdings in statements and the trading platform; and Cost basis.
However
- Loaned shares may not be protected by SIPC, however, the cash collateral received for the loaned securities is segregated within the 15c3-3 Reserve Account and therefore subject to the same investment restrictions;
- Proxy voting rights on loaned shares are forfeited (rights go to borrower);
- Loaned shares are typically used to facilitate short sales and such transactions may affect the value of shares.
And another FAQ.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Just curious.... I believe these securities are lent mostly for shorting etc... has all the recent high volatility led to some increased income for those particpating in this?
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Hello BH's,
I have just transferred to IB last week. They now have some of the lowest costs in the industry.
The Stock Yield Enhancement program was another feature that enticed me to make the move.
It is just another way of earning money on your money. Not much, but it gets added to the revenue side and not the cost side.
That is a plus for me.
It seems like a great idea.
I will learn more in the days and weeks to come.
If I can add to this thread in a positive way, I will post what I learn.
Thanks Bogleheads,
I have just transferred to IB last week. They now have some of the lowest costs in the industry.
The Stock Yield Enhancement program was another feature that enticed me to make the move.
It is just another way of earning money on your money. Not much, but it gets added to the revenue side and not the cost side.
That is a plus for me.
It seems like a great idea.
I will learn more in the days and weeks to come.
If I can add to this thread in a positive way, I will post what I learn.
Thanks Bogleheads,
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Is there any place in Client Portal (or other interfaces) to see if your securities are being lent? Or you have to wait until end of month?
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Yes, if I look at Jan-Feb vs. Mar-April, activity is up 50%. I have some value ETFs that have been getting hammered, and have also been lent a lot. FNDF (large, intl fundamental) was being lent out at above 5%. Before that the high rates were in the 2% range.occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:09 am Just curious.... I believe these securities are lent mostly for shorting etc... has all the recent high volatility led to some increased income for those particpating in this?
Again, realize that this is earning me virtually nothing: for March/April I received a two month return of 0.04%. I am considering stopping the program simply because it makes my statements too long
So far, my rationale for keeping it is that an assumed 0.2% steady annual return on top of a 4% SWR (as a reference) means I can increase my withdrawal rate by 5%. Not life-changing, but a bit above noise level.
Yes, I can run date range reports and see all the details: what is lent, how much, at what rate. So I can see up to the previous day.occambogle wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:11 am Is there any place in Client Portal (or other interfaces) to see if your securities are being lent? Or you have to wait until end of month?
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Thanks you for your reply... Yeah, that's not much. But still free money. When you say "I am considering stopping the program simply because it makes my statements too long " is that a joke? What I mean is... it doesn't actually complicate anything tax-wise right? It's just a little more interest income right?sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm Again, realize that this is earning me virtually nothing: for March/April I received a two month return of 0.04%. I am considering stopping the program simply because it makes my statements too long
Could you kindly explain how exactly to do this? I'm familiar with how to create custom reports... but I can't work out which data points or categories one should select to see the SYEP information?sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm Yes, I can run date range reports and see all the details: what is lent, how much, at what rate. So I can see up to the previous day.
EDIT: I think I worked it out... Is it the categories "Borrow/Loan fees" and "Borrow/Loans"? I made $2.87 in the last couple days... going out to celebrate
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
The way I look at it is to go into the menu, "Reports/Tax Docs," click on the arrow for "Run Activity," and choose the period "custom date range." When I run that report and "expand all," one of the sections is "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Interest Details (Stock Yield Enhancement Program)." That shows me the detail in the period.occambogle wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:19 am When you say "I am considering stopping the program simply because it makes my statements too long " is that a joke? What I mean is... it doesn't actually complicate anything tax-wise right? It's just a little more interest income right?
Could you kindly explain how exactly to do this?sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm Yes, I can run date range reports and see all the details: what is lent, how much, at what rate. So I can see up to the previous day.
This is the report that is getting long, and yes I was serious (but unlikely to act on it). So nothing to do with taxes. As far as I can see, it will not complicate my taxes at all, as the 1099 Div will stay the same (my original question). This Activity report now has three different sections about the program, listing every loan. It has quadrupled the size of the report, which is mildly annoying.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Ah OK. What I did is to create a Custom Statement and in that selected only the sections:sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm The way I look at it is to go into the menu, "Reports/Tax Docs," click on the arrow for "Run Activity," and choose the period "custom date range." When I run that report and "expand all," one of the sections is "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Interest Details (Stock Yield Enhancement Program)." That shows me the detail in the period.
Borrow/Loan Fees
Borrows/Loans
Payment in lieu of dividends
Then I can run that custom statement with whatever time period
Cool... Thanks.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm This is the report that is getting long, and yes I was serious (but unlikely to act on it). So nothing to do with taxes. As far as I can see, it will not complicate my taxes at all, as the 1099 Div will stay the same (my original question).
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
So what are the risks? I know its 002%, but still there is money, and there is nothing free in this world......
Also why do they need so much information to be able to create an account?
For each account holder, you will need:
US Social Security Number or ID number if not a US citizen (Driver's License, Alien Identification Card, Passport or National Identity Card).
Your employer name, address and phone number.
Bank or third-party broker account numbers for funding purposes, plus routing number for check deposits.
Estimated Net Worth (excluding value of residence).
Estimated Liquid Net Worth (excluding value of residence).
Annual Net Income.
Total Assets.
I get some fo them, but others are very new to me....
Also why do they need so much information to be able to create an account?
For each account holder, you will need:
US Social Security Number or ID number if not a US citizen (Driver's License, Alien Identification Card, Passport or National Identity Card).
Your employer name, address and phone number.
Bank or third-party broker account numbers for funding purposes, plus routing number for check deposits.
Estimated Net Worth (excluding value of residence).
Estimated Liquid Net Worth (excluding value of residence).
Annual Net Income.
Total Assets.
I get some fo them, but others are very new to me....
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Just in case useful for anyone else... I discovered to be eligible for SYEP the account needs to have $50k minimum. And if you have multiple accounts e.g. taxable and IRAs then the minimum applies to each account separately, it is not spread across them.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I don't think there are any risks except very theoretical. The way I look at it, I am getting compensated for someone using an underutilized asset. A bit like airBnB: I have an ETF that I'm not doing anything with, and a short-seller would like to borrow it. He pays me a small fee for the privilege.
I have no idea why they ask all that stuff. Since 9/11, financial institutions have become incredibly nosy.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Possible to know before investing how much money you can make based on your portfolio. I own intel, google shares for e.g., possible to know if I can make some money?
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
No. It all depends on how many people want to short them. I am certain that you will make some money with those shares, but no idea how much / often. Of my six ETFs at IB, five were lent out in April.
I wanted to find out whether, among similar ETFs, one is shorted more often than another, but did not find an easy way to get the information.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
You can use below website for some indications on market borrow fee rate and availability. It's very hard on predict if your stock/ETFs will be lend out a given day. The lower the availability the better chances of your stock will be lent out.
https://iborrowdesk.com/
https://iborrowdesk.com/
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
That is really helpful -- thanks, saver. My objective is to compare demand for, say, VTI vs. ITOT to see whether one is the "default" option for a specific type of ETF. This is what I was looking for.saver007 wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 4:07 pm You can use below website for some indications on market borrow fee rate and availability. It's very hard on predict if your stock/ETFs will be lend out a given day. The lower the availability the better chances of your stock will be lent out.
https://iborrowdesk.com/
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Well I had SYEP turned on for all of May and it earned me $17.14 on about a 70k investment.
So that's ummm... pretty small... but it feels like free money.
I hold NTSX, VXUS, and EDV. EDV was never lent out at all. VXUS was loaned out at least half the days, but earns IB only 1% and you 0.5%. NTSX was only loaned out 4 days but earns IB 7.5% and you 3.75%... so despite the infrequent lending it accounted for at least 2/3rds of the interest received.
Why anyone would short NTSX is beyond me, because it's a very small and balanced fund... but I don't understand these things.
So that's ummm... pretty small... but it feels like free money.
I hold NTSX, VXUS, and EDV. EDV was never lent out at all. VXUS was loaned out at least half the days, but earns IB only 1% and you 0.5%. NTSX was only loaned out 4 days but earns IB 7.5% and you 3.75%... so despite the infrequent lending it accounted for at least 2/3rds of the interest received.
Why anyone would short NTSX is beyond me, because it's a very small and balanced fund... but I don't understand these things.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Yes, that seems about right: somewhere around 0.3% return. The way I look at it, assuming the 0.3% holds steady (which I doubt, I think it is high now due to all the volatility) and in retirement I withdraw 3% after taxes, this will let me withdraw an extra 10% indefinitely. That's not too bad.occambogle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:26 am Well I had SYEP turned on for all of May and it earned me $17.14 on about a 70k investment.
So that's ummm... pretty small... but it feels like free money.
My Value ETFs got shorted a ton in the previous months, and it turned out that they were right.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
A minor update: it turns out you can add the short selling fee (%) for your holdings as a field in the IB app. It's sort of fun to see what the market demand is on betting that my ETF will go down (but no, I don't do anything with the information).
Right now it will cost you 5.94% to short FNDF, but only 0.72% to short ITOT.
Right now it will cost you 5.94% to short FNDF, but only 0.72% to short ITOT.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Yes I found that too. You can do the same in Client Portal. My AVDV will cost you a whopping borrow rate of 19.15% today, and someone actually borrowed my shares yesterday. I'll surely be able to retire soon off thissean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:15 pm A minor update: it turns out you can add the short selling fee (%) for your holdings as a field in the IB app. It's sort of fun to see what the market demand is on betting that my ETF will go down (but no, I don't do anything with the information).
Right now it will cost you 5.94% to short FNDF, but only 0.72% to short ITOT.
One thing that's odd though, when I run a report to show SYEP in the section "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Activity" it's showing some stuff lent and returned in June, but in the section "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Interest Details" it's only showing items up to the end of May. Is that by chance the same for you?
EDIT - Seems it was just a temporary issue and is now showing.
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Wow, I've never had a rate anywhere near that. This is why I wanted a way to look at the list -- I'd love to know which are the "go to" short ETF's in different classes.occambogle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:32 pm Yes I found that too. You can do the same in Client Portal. My AVDV will cost you a whopping borrow rate of 19.15% today, and someone actually borrowed my shares yesterday. I'll surely be able to retire soon off this
One thing that's odd though, when I run a report to show SYEP in the section "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Activity" it's showing some stuff lent and returned in June, but in the section "IBKR Managed Securities Lent Interest Details" it's only showing items up to the end of May. Is that by chance the same for you?
EDIT - Seems it was just a temporary issue and is now showing.
Assuming they know something, you are in for a wild ride with AVDV.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Is'nt there a risk in lending, it is not insured, besides IB being the borrower and unless they go under, that is all the insurance?
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Hi annu,
I believe there is a theoretical risk, but the short-seller has to put up cash that is segregated at IB.
As I posted above:
I think the risk is similar to having assets at a broker to begin with. I.e., extremely small.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:40 pm As to the mechanics, according to Interactive Brokers:
- Clients maintain full control of loaned shares with no impairment as to: Market exposure; The ability to sell at any time without prior notice; The representation of holdings in statements and the trading platform; and Cost basis.
However
- Loaned shares may not be protected by SIPC, however, the cash collateral received for the loaned securities is segregated within the 15c3-3 Reserve Account and therefore subject to the same investment restrictions;
And another FAQ.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Some rates I've seen (looking over past statements): MFDX 8.37%, REET 9.13%, SMLF 16.82%, EMGF 8.20%, GSLC 6.06%. In general, the more AUM the lower the borrow rate you'll get since there are so many shares out there floating around. That said, I've also owned some tiny funds (RZV) that had very low borrow costs (2%). So small size alone is no guarantee of a high borrow fee.occambogle wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:32 pmYes I found that too. You can do the same in Client Portal. My AVDV will cost you a whopping borrow rate of 19.15% today, and someone actually borrowed my shares yesterday. I'll surely be able to retire soon off thissean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:15 pm A minor update: it turns out you can add the short selling fee (%) for your holdings as a field in the IB app. It's sort of fun to see what the market demand is on betting that my ETF will go down (but no, I don't do anything with the information).
Right now it will cost you 5.94% to short FNDF, but only 0.72% to short ITOT.
Whoever is borrowing your shares has to pay collateral. It shows how much in the IBKR statement. It'll say something like "REET 2020-05-25 New Loan Allocation -4,326 shares $86,520 collateral." If they don't pay it back you get to keep the collateral of $86,520.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I don't think higher rates are actually an indication of risk, it's more a question of the ease of availability of shares to borrow and for smaller funds with low AUM like AVDV, I guess they are necessarily harder to borrow.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:10 am Wow, I've never had a rate anywhere near that. This is why I wanted a way to look at the list -- I'd love to know which are the "go to" short ETF's in different classes.
Assuming they know something, you are in for a wild ride with AVDV.
Value Date Symbol Quantity Collateral Amount Interest Rate Earned by IB (%) Interest Paid to IB Interest Rate on Customer Collateral (%) Interest Paid to Customer
2020-06-15 AVDV -172 7,912.00 17.36 3.82 8.68 1.91
So that's a whole $1.91.... hmm, early retirement may have to be postponed
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Thanks, interesting. I'm sure expected volatility is the other variable driving rates. I might poke around a bit on your observation: that would say, for a given class of ETFs, I might get a small (tiny multiplied by even more tiny) advantage to picking the one with the smallest AUM assuming the ERs are the same. Hard to imagine this is worth my time, but it does have me curious.AlohaJoe wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:30 am Some rates I've seen (looking over past statements): MFDX 8.37%, REET 9.13%, SMLF 16.82%, EMGF 8.20%, GSLC 6.06%. In general, the more AUM the lower the borrow rate you'll get since there are so many shares out there floating around. That said, I've also owned some tiny funds (RZV) that had very low borrow costs (2%). So small size alone is no guarantee of a high borrow fee.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I can't think volatility is a factor... TQQQ, a triple-leveraged Nasdaq ETF has a quarter of the borrow rate of NTSX. I think it's just a question of availability of shares available to lend.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:51 am Thanks, interesting. I'm sure expected volatility is the other variable driving rates. I might poke around a bit on your observation: that would say, for a given class of ETFs, I might get a small (tiny multiplied by even more tiny) advantage to picking the one with the smallest AUM assuming the ERs are the same. Hard to imagine this is worth my time, but it does have me curious.
I wouldn't for a second choose an ETF for the potential in SYEP, the SYEP return is miniscule. It's more like those sweet jars on the counter when you leave a restaurant... Yes, free sweets! And it's better than no sweets. But I wouldn't choose the restaurant based on them....
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Yep, agree.occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am I wouldn't for a second choose an ETF for the potential in SYEP, the SYEP return is miniscule. It's more like those sweet jars on the counter when you leave a restaurant... Yes, free sweets! And it's better than no sweets. But I wouldn't choose the restaurant based on them....
Expectations of volatility or Bearish sentiments has to drive demand when we're talking about ETFs. You can see it happen with the current COVID turbulence. Given the AUM is more or less constant, what do you think drives the large swings in the rates to short a specific ETF?occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am I can't think volatility is a factor... TQQQ, a triple-leveraged Nasdaq ETF has a quarter of the borrow rate of NTSX. I think it's just a question of availability of shares available to lend.
-
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:58 am
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
No idea I'm afraid. But the day that AVDV got shorted it rose more than 2%... so I'm not going to follow the shorter's sentimentsean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:28 am Given the AUM is more or less constant, what do you think drives the large swings in the rates to short a specific ETF?
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I didn't say they were right, just that they expect it. I've seen a study that says they don't do any better job predicting the market than any other stock pickers.occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:59 am No idea I'm afraid. But the day that AVDV got shorted it rose more than 2%... so I'm not going to follow the shorter's sentiment
Anyway, I think they like volatility and may not always care if it goes up or down at the end of a day -- as long as there are wild swings, they can reverse the short at the right moment.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Where do you go to find the table of rates? I don't have an IB account yet, but I'd like to check the rates on few securities.occambogle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:35 amI don't think higher rates are actually an indication of risk, it's more a question of the ease of availability of shares to borrow and for smaller funds with low AUM like AVDV, I guess they are necessarily harder to borrow.sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:10 am Wow, I've never had a rate anywhere near that. This is why I wanted a way to look at the list -- I'd love to know which are the "go to" short ETF's in different classes.
Assuming they know something, you are in for a wild ride with AVDV.
Value Date Symbol Quantity Collateral Amount Interest Rate Earned by IB (%) Interest Paid to IB Interest Rate on Customer Collateral (%) Interest Paid to Customer
2020-06-15 AVDV -172 7,912.00 17.36 3.82 8.68 1.91
So that's a whole $1.91.... hmm, early retirement may have to be postponed
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
saver007 wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 4:07 pm You can use below website for some indications on market borrow fee rate and availability. It's very hard on predict if your stock/ETFs will be lend out a given day. The lower the availability the better chances of your stock will be lent out.
https://iborrowdesk.com/
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
So, if the % is very low, such as VTI, you have little chance of it being leant out?sean.mcgrath wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:28 pmsaver007 wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 4:07 pm You can use below website for some indications on market borrow fee rate and availability. It's very hard on predict if your stock/ETFs will be lend out a given day. The lower the availability the better chances of your stock will be lent out.
https://iborrowdesk.com/
-
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
- Location: US in NL
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
I assume it does reflect supply vs. demand, but IB lends out proportionally to everyone in the program, so even my ITOT has been lent. The amount you earn on the low % ones is trivial, however.
Re: Tax consequences of IB Stock Yield Enhancement program?
Do you pay any fees to IB in order to utilize this feature?occambogle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:26 am Well I had SYEP turned on for all of May and it earned me $17.14 on about a 70k investment.
So that's ummm... pretty small... but it feels like free money.
I hold NTSX, VXUS, and EDV. EDV was never lent out at all. VXUS was loaned out at least half the days, but earns IB only 1% and you 0.5%. NTSX was only loaned out 4 days but earns IB 7.5% and you 3.75%... so despite the infrequent lending it accounted for at least 2/3rds of the interest received.
Why anyone would short NTSX is beyond me, because it's a very small and balanced fund... but I don't understand these things.