Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

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renue74
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Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:37 pm

I own nine rental properties and have a $3M Personal Umbrella policy with Geico. ($1500/year...because I have a 17 year new driver)

Back in the summer, I deeded all my rentals from my personal name to my LLC.

I completely forgot about the Umbrella policy and called Geico yesterday to make sure they had a list of my rentals. They told me my policy no longer covers properties owned by an LLC.

So...I scramble today and got a "General Liability" Umbrella Policy today for my LLC and added all my properties to that. Just like personal umbrella, they will make you max out your individual policy coverage before covering. $500K-individual rental property coverage + $3M business LLC umbrella.

So...my question is...this "enough" asset protection?

I had a long conversation with a real estate investor earlier this week who does a convoluted LLC "shell game" to protect his personal assets. (In-state LLC for each rental property. A holding company LLC in Wyoming....and the Wyoming LLC is the member manager of the In-State LLC for each rental. All personal assets in the Wyoming LLC for asset protection.)

Thoughts?

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ResearchMed
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by ResearchMed » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm

renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:37 pm
I own nine rental properties and have a $3M Personal Umbrella policy with Geico. ($1500/year...because I have a 17 year new driver)

Back in the summer, I deeded all my rentals from my personal name to my LLC.

I completely forgot about the Umbrella policy and called Geico yesterday to make sure they had a list of my rentals. They told me my policy no longer covers properties owned by an LLC.

So...I scramble today and got a "General Liability" Umbrella Policy today for my LLC and added all my properties to that. Just like personal umbrella, they will make you max out your individual policy coverage before covering. $500K-individual rental property coverage + $3M business LLC umbrella.

So...my question is...this "enough" asset protection?

I had a long conversation with a real estate investor earlier this week who does a convoluted LLC "shell game" to protect his personal assets. (In-state LLC for each rental property. A holding company LLC in Wyoming....and the Wyoming LLC is the member manager of the In-State LLC for each rental. All personal assets in the Wyoming LLC for asset protection.)

Thoughts?
First, we always had business/commercial insurance - including umbrella - for any rental property.
Maybe it varies from state to state, but personal policies won't cover anything that is a "business or commercial enterprise", regardless of how it is "titled", whether they are owned by an LLC or by us personally.
I can't quite tell how the policies are written.

... which brings me to... how are your rental titled?
If there are mortgages, is it in your name or the LLC's name?
IF you have *your* name on these, then the LLC won't really be much protection, as you aren't buffered the way you'd probably want.

RM
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renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:58 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm
renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:37 pm
I own nine rental properties and have a $3M Personal Umbrella policy with Geico. ($1500/year...because I have a 17 year new driver)

Back in the summer, I deeded all my rentals from my personal name to my LLC.

I completely forgot about the Umbrella policy and called Geico yesterday to make sure they had a list of my rentals. They told me my policy no longer covers properties owned by an LLC.

So...I scramble today and got a "General Liability" Umbrella Policy today for my LLC and added all my properties to that. Just like personal umbrella, they will make you max out your individual policy coverage before covering. $500K-individual rental property coverage + $3M business LLC umbrella.

So...my question is...this "enough" asset protection?

I had a long conversation with a real estate investor earlier this week who does a convoluted LLC "shell game" to protect his personal assets. (In-state LLC for each rental property. A holding company LLC in Wyoming....and the Wyoming LLC is the member manager of the In-State LLC for each rental. All personal assets in the Wyoming LLC for asset protection.)

Thoughts?
First, we always had business/commercial insurance - including umbrella - for any rental property.
Maybe it varies from state to state, but personal policies won't cover anything that is a "business or commercial enterprise", regardless of how it is "titled", whether they are owned by an LLC or by us personally.
I can't quite tell how the policies are written.

... which brings me to... how are your rental titled?
If there are mortgages, is it in your name or the LLC's name?
IF you have *your* name on these, then the LLC won't really be much protection, as you aren't buffered the way you'd probably want.

RM
All my rental properties are owned free & clear. No mortgages.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by ResearchMed » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:00 pm

renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:58 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm
renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:37 pm
I own nine rental properties and have a $3M Personal Umbrella policy with Geico. ($1500/year...because I have a 17 year new driver)

Back in the summer, I deeded all my rentals from my personal name to my LLC.

I completely forgot about the Umbrella policy and called Geico yesterday to make sure they had a list of my rentals. They told me my policy no longer covers properties owned by an LLC.

So...I scramble today and got a "General Liability" Umbrella Policy today for my LLC and added all my properties to that. Just like personal umbrella, they will make you max out your individual policy coverage before covering. $500K-individual rental property coverage + $3M business LLC umbrella.

So...my question is...this "enough" asset protection?

I had a long conversation with a real estate investor earlier this week who does a convoluted LLC "shell game" to protect his personal assets. (In-state LLC for each rental property. A holding company LLC in Wyoming....and the Wyoming LLC is the member manager of the In-State LLC for each rental. All personal assets in the Wyoming LLC for asset protection.)

Thoughts?
First, we always had business/commercial insurance - including umbrella - for any rental property.
Maybe it varies from state to state, but personal policies won't cover anything that is a "business or commercial enterprise", regardless of how it is "titled", whether they are owned by an LLC or by us personally.
I can't quite tell how the policies are written.

... which brings me to... how are your rental titled?
If there are mortgages, is it in your name or the LLC's name?
IF you have *your* name on these, then the LLC won't really be much protection, as you aren't buffered the way you'd probably want.

RM
All my rental properties are owned free & clear. No mortgages.
That certainly might help, but how are they *titled*?
Do YOU own them personally (in your own name), or are they each/all owned by an LLC?

RM
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:13 pm

We paid much less for the same coverage with boy driver's. Much less. Are you sure your 9 properties didn't drive that cost?
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retired@50
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by retired@50 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:33 pm

I would imagine you need to have a long conversation with your insurance agent about the umbrella policy and its advantages and limitations. When I think about 9 properties, that's a pretty wide variety of things that can go wrong within a number of households.

What happens if a tree falls, what happens if someone has a slip and fall, what happens during weather issues...??? This creates a lot of potential problems.

Regards,

DarkHelmetII
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by DarkHelmetII » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:07 pm

Umbrella typically only expands $$ of coverage, not the types of perils covered. Key distinction.

So in a sense the answer is easy ... Umbrella will not cover you if the underlying auto / homowners / landlord policy will not cover you.

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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:14 pm

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:07 pm
Umbrella typically only expands $$ of coverage, not the types of perils covered. Key distinction.

So in a sense the answer is easy ... Umbrella will not cover you if the underlying auto / homowners / landlord policy will not cover you.
:thumbsup

This means that an umbrella policy would not cover malpractice, for instance.
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by abuss368 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:15 pm

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:07 pm
Umbrella typically only expands $$ of coverage, not the types of perils covered. Key distinction.

So in a sense the answer is easy ... Umbrella will not cover you if the underlying auto / homowners / landlord policy will not cover you.
That is my understanding as well. One is not purchasing a new type of insurance to cover against different risks but rather increasing coverage on the insurance policies already in place.
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boglerdude
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by boglerdude » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:50 am

LLCs arent magic get out of jail free cards, if youre negligent the veil will be pierced. "Accidents" are not foreseeable negligence.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:44 am

boglerdude wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:50 am
LLCs arent magic get out of jail free cards, if youre negligent the veil will be pierced. "Accidents" are not foreseeable negligence.
Note: IANAL

It's still not clear how OP's rental properties are titled.

If there is ANYthing "official" linking OP as a person to the "business", then OP has already, in a sense, "pierced the veil" - and before the veil could even be lowered.

And especially in a single member LLC, it could be hard to distinguish between the "owner" (or operator/manager) and the LLC.
That's why *everything* would need to be titled separately and nothing commingled. Property titles in name of LLC, all banking accounts - including all "business" charges - on accounts titled in the name of the LLC, etc.

And yes, there are situations where that veil can be pierced anyway.
Worse, someone could sue and *not* be successful piercing the veil, but one must spend money to defend, anyway.
Or have the right type of insurance to pay for this.

RM
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RagnarRahl
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by RagnarRahl » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:55 am

Look very carefully to see if your policy covers mold damage. My homeowner's policy with State Farm did not. I had a leaky shower in an apartment condo and caused some mold damage to the apartment below. Fortunately my neighbor found it early and the damage wasn't huge, but I had to pay it out of pocket.

Topic Author
renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:54 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:00 pm
renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:58 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm
renue74 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:37 pm
I own nine rental properties and have a $3M Personal Umbrella policy with Geico. ($1500/year...because I have a 17 year new driver)

Back in the summer, I deeded all my rentals from my personal name to my LLC.

I completely forgot about the Umbrella policy and called Geico yesterday to make sure they had a list of my rentals. They told me my policy no longer covers properties owned by an LLC.

So...I scramble today and got a "General Liability" Umbrella Policy today for my LLC and added all my properties to that. Just like personal umbrella, they will make you max out your individual policy coverage before covering. $500K-individual rental property coverage + $3M business LLC umbrella.

So...my question is...this "enough" asset protection?

I had a long conversation with a real estate investor earlier this week who does a convoluted LLC "shell game" to protect his personal assets. (In-state LLC for each rental property. A holding company LLC in Wyoming....and the Wyoming LLC is the member manager of the In-State LLC for each rental. All personal assets in the Wyoming LLC for asset protection.)

Thoughts?
First, we always had business/commercial insurance - including umbrella - for any rental property.
Maybe it varies from state to state, but personal policies won't cover anything that is a "business or commercial enterprise", regardless of how it is "titled", whether they are owned by an LLC or by us personally.
I can't quite tell how the policies are written.

... which brings me to... how are your rental titled?
If there are mortgages, is it in your name or the LLC's name?
IF you have *your* name on these, then the LLC won't really be much protection, as you aren't buffered the way you'd probably want.

RM
All my rental properties are owned free & clear. No mortgages.
That certainly might help, but how are they *titled*?
Do YOU own them personally (in your own name), or are they each/all owned by an LLC?

RM
I just deeded from my name to my LLC this past summer....which spurred me rethinking my personal umbrella policy.

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renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:13 pm
We paid much less for the same coverage with boy driver's. Much less. Are you sure your 9 properties didn't drive that cost?
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)

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sk2101
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by sk2101 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:13 pm

One of my rentals is also titled in an LLC, so I am quite familiar with this issue. An umbrella policy will not cover a rental property in an LLC, period. Assuming you did everything correctly and the corporate veil cannot be pierced then your liability is limited to the value of the property in the LLC, they can't come after your personal assets. If you want additional protection then you need a General Liability (GL) insurance. Those are not that expensive, I used to pay about $800/year for $5M on 3 properties.

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sk2101
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by sk2101 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm

renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)
You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.

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Wiggums
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by Wiggums » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:18 pm

My understanding is that you need commercial or general liability insurance for the LLC. On top of that, you can extend the LLC insurance policy. Unfortunately, the insurance companies use different names for their commercial insurance. I can understand why Geico won’t use an individual umbrella policy on an LLC that can do business in multiple states and be subject to various state rules.

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dm200
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by dm200 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:23 pm

Years ago, back when I had both an Umbrella Policy and considerable assets - I learned that a personal umbrella policy (what I had) did not cover any business related lawsuits.

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renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm

sk2101 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)
You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.
I did yesterday. They actually removed them when I told them I just deeded them into my LLC.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:57 pm

renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm
sk2101 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)
You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.
I did yesterday. They actually removed them when I told them I just deeded them into my LLC.
Did you at the same time make sure to get a business/commercial policy, including umbrella, for the properties?

RM
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Topic Author
renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:21 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:57 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm
sk2101 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)
You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.
I did yesterday. They actually removed them when I told them I just deeded them into my LLC.
Did you at the same time make sure to get a business/commercial policy, including umbrella, for the properties?

RM
Yes. I got general liability umbrella for the LLC. Through the same carrier I have my rental property insurance the Through.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:57 pm

renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:21 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:57 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm
sk2101 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 am
The properties did drive up the cost a little. But, last year I was paying $750 for $3M coverage and when my kid started driving it went to $1500. All other things were constant (rental property numbers)
You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.
I did yesterday. They actually removed them when I told them I just deeded them into my LLC.
Did you at the same time make sure to get a business/commercial policy, including umbrella, for the properties?

RM
Yes. I got general liability umbrella for the LLC. Through the same carrier I have my rental property insurance the Through.
Hate to keep asking, but do you have regular business/commercial insurance, too, for the rentals? Fire/etc.?

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

OnTrack
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by OnTrack » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:59 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:15 pm
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:07 pm
Umbrella typically only expands $$ of coverage, not the types of perils covered. Key distinction.

So in a sense the answer is easy ... Umbrella will not cover you if the underlying auto / homowners / landlord policy will not cover you.
That is my understanding as well. One is not purchasing a new type of insurance to cover against different risks but rather increasing coverage on the insurance policies already in place.
Not sure that is correct.
From https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
"President Clinton's umbrella insurers (State Farm and Pacific Indemnity) are paying to defend him against defamation charges that are part of Paula Jones' sexual-harassment suit, while O.J.'s umbrella insurer paid the legal bill for his civil trial."
I doubt they had underlying insurance that covered those cases.
IANAL

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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by AznSaver » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:00 am

Homeowner's insurance/along with a GLI (commercial general liability (Broad insurance liability coverage for businesses)) can cover for the stated instances of defamation: libel/slander through coverage of "personal injury".

"Personal injury" in insurances terms isn't what people think it is... Tort claims are the typical types of physical damage claims like and auto accident/injury. A policy with underlying coverage for this, is additional covered for this with umbrella coverage. Typical personal injury is an endorsement added to the coverage.

Things excluded from umbrella coverage are usually professional liability/malpractice, errors and omissions (E&O coverage), employee dishonesty...
There are quite a few differences between coverages in a personal vs commercial policy along with individual carrier differences.

I have Allstate for my rental properties and for me in Washington State their umbrella coverage does extend to rental properties, I think the limit was 7 before it became invalid. There are other stipulations: single-family homes, non-multi-unit dwellings. I would actually prefer a commercial policy because of the additional endorsements available (loss of income, etc.).

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renue74
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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by renue74 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:10 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:57 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:21 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:57 pm
renue74 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:56 pm
sk2101 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:17 pm

You should call and ask them to remove the rental properties from the policy, since you are paying for them but effectively getting no coverage.
I did yesterday. They actually removed them when I told them I just deeded them into my LLC.
Did you at the same time make sure to get a business/commercial policy, including umbrella, for the properties?

RM
Yes. I got general liability umbrella for the LLC. Through the same carrier I have my rental property insurance the Through.
Hate to keep asking, but do you have regular business/commercial insurance, too, for the rentals? Fire/etc.?

RM
Yes. I do have a business policy for each rental. Typically my Statefarm people call it a "landlord policy" and it covers up to $500K before the General Liability Umbrella for the LLC would kick in.

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Re: Umbrella Policy - when does it NOT cover something?

Post by abuss368 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm

OnTrack wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:59 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:15 pm
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:07 pm
Umbrella typically only expands $$ of coverage, not the types of perils covered. Key distinction.

So in a sense the answer is easy ... Umbrella will not cover you if the underlying auto / homowners / landlord policy will not cover you.
That is my understanding as well. One is not purchasing a new type of insurance to cover against different risks but rather increasing coverage on the insurance policies already in place.
Not sure that is correct.
From https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
"President Clinton's umbrella insurers (State Farm and Pacific Indemnity) are paying to defend him against defamation charges that are part of Paula Jones' sexual-harassment suit, while O.J.'s umbrella insurer paid the legal bill for his civil trial."
I doubt they had underlying insurance that covered those cases.
IANAL
Thank you fro providing. Interesting.
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