Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am

I have been a Fido customer for about 4 years now with no plans to switch. With some changes however to their trading costs I want to get some opinions moving forward.

I have 2 accounts with them (Taxable & Roth IRA)
24% tax bracket

Taxable I hold a good amount and mixture of the below
Roth IRA
When I have extra money, I have been just adding funds and purchasing more FSKAX (total US market) in my taxable or buying more in my Roth IRA each year when contributions can be made.

In addition, I want to sell down some of my International and reallocate to Total Market.
  • Do you think it would be worth while to purchase Total Market funds as VTI or VTSAX as it doesn't look like there is a trade fee now to hold Vanguard in Fido. I could shift my Intl funds to it and also use it for future contributions. Now sure how much it will save me year end on tax efficiency
Comparing
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.015 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Last edited by rocketsrule on Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BogleMelon
Posts: 2168
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:49 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by BogleMelon » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am

I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am

BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?

fwellimort
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:41 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by fwellimort » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:15 am

For taxable on Fidelity, why not ITOT?
Other than that, ETFs tend to be more tax efficient than mutual funds (exception being Vanguard mutual funds due to patent).
That said, don't fret too much. All these choices have ridiculously low fees so you aren't losing in much.
Go download yourself a copy of: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
on your google drive and update the ticker (was in one of the Boglehead posts. Thank you to whoever spent the time to make this).

(by total expense, I mean expense + tax)
VTI total expense is 0.42. FSKAX total expense is 0.51.
VTI is more tax efficient even after higher fees by 0.09%.
ITOT and VTI are about the same for total expense.

For tax advantaged (Roth IRA, etc.), taxes don't matter so just go by expense ratios. Fidelity should win out there.
Last edited by fwellimort on Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

HomeStretch
Posts: 2964
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by HomeStretch » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:18 am

There is not a trading fee to buy Vanguard ETFs like VTI at Fidelity but not sure if there is no fee to buy Vanguard mutual funds like VTSAX at Fidelity.

I would definitely hold VTI (or ITOT) rather than FSKAX in a Fidelity Taxable account. FSKAX has distributed short-term capital gains (taxed at ordinary tax rates) in recent years whereas VTSAX/VTI have not. In my Fidelity Taxable account, I turned off automatic reinvestment of FSKAX dividends/capital gains and have tax loss harvested when possible as the tax inefficiency was noticeable.

You can look up FSKAX’s S/T capital gains distribution history on Fidelity’s website to calculate the tax differential between ordinary/capital tax rates. I think the QDI % for FSKAX and VTSAX is similar.

User avatar
birdog
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by birdog » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:22 am

I would go with VTI in taxable if it were me. I like the better tax efficiency of ETFs in taxable. BTW, I like your overall portfolio.

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:27 am

fwellimort wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:15 am
For taxable on Fidelity, why not ITOT? 0.03% fee unlike VTI (0.04% fee).
Other than that, ETFs tend to be more tax efficient than mutual funds (exception being Vanguard mutual funds due to patent).
That said, don't fret too much. All these choices have ridiculously low fees so you aren't losing in much.
Go download yourself a copy of: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
on your google drive and update the ticker (was in one of the Boglehead posts. Thank you to whoever spent the time to make this).

(by total expense, I mean expense + tax)
VTI total expense is 0.42. FSKAX total expense is 0.51.
VTI is more tax efficient even after higher fees by 0.09%.
ITOT is more efficient than VTI by 0.01% at your tax bracket.

For tax advantaged (Roth IRA, etc.), taxes don't matter so just go by expense ratios. Fidelity should win out there.
I downloaded at Xls and go to open but says error is data. Everything un # shares/$10000 just shows #value.

Also if i update a ticker is it supposed to automatically update the er and fees below or do i need to do this?

Ferdinand2014
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Ferdinand2014 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:34 am

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am
I have been a Fido customer for about 4 years now with no plans to switch. With some changes however to their trading costs I want to get some opinions moving forward.

I have 2 accounts with them (Taxable & Roth IRA)
24% tax bracket

Taxable I hold a good amount and mixture of the below
Roth IRA
When I have extra money, I have been just adding funds and purchasing more FSKAX (total US market) in my taxable or buying more in my Roth IRA each year when contributions can be made.

In addition, I want to sell down some of my International and reallocate to Total Market.
  • Do you think it would be worth while to purchase Total Market funds as VTI or VTSAX as it doesn't look like there is a trade fee now to hold Vanguard in Fido. I could shift my Intl funds to it and also use it for future contributions. Now sure how much it will save me year end on tax efficiency
Comparing
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
I do not think it would be worthwhile to purchase VTI or VTSAX. The tax efficiency difference is a rounding error. No need to make your life complicated.
“You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.“ — Warren Buffett

fwellimort
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:41 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by fwellimort » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:39 am

Clone it in Google Drive and use Google Spreadsheets (it uses Google's finance API so downloading it locally won't help).

Update Federal and QDI to the tax bracket. Didn't really have time to change the numbers so I might be off.
Scroll down to FSTVX and change that to FSKAX.
Expense ratio should be updated to 0.015 and dividends too if you can (the dividends are similar enough it really doesn't matter)..

Then look at the total expense at end.
That said, general rule of thumb is:
iShares and Vanguard on taxable
Vanguard and Fidelity on tax advantaged

At end of day, we are talking about +- < 0.1%. 10 cents every $100. Don't fret too much.

retired@50
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by retired@50 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:45 am

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

I'm not certain how much you'd save in taxes by using VTI over FSKAX, but you KNOW you'll save on the expense ratio.
$200,000 x .0015 = $300 per year for FSKAX, versus $200,000 x .0003 = $60 per year for VTI. Savings = $240 just on the ongoing expense ratio.

Edit, turns out the ER of 0.15 below is inaccurate. It's actually .015. This means the FSKAX fund is less expensive. Regards,
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER
According to the Vanguard website, the turnover for VTI & VTSAX is 3.4%. Since they are two share classes of the same fund, it stands to reason that the turnover is identical.

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Regards,
Last edited by retired@50 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

anon_investor
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by anon_investor » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:46 am

VTI or ITOT should both work in taxable, both have 0.03% expense ratios. They do track different total US stock market indexes, so their returns might be slightly different, but overall very similar.

Since you hold VTEB, you obviously are familiar with using ETFs, but one draw back is you have to buy per share vs. a dollar amount. Personally, I have my taxable at Vanguard and use VTSAX because I like the convenience of putting in a dollar amount per paycheck vs. having left over change buying ETF shares.

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:56 pm

retired@50 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:45 am
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

I'm not certain how much you'd save in taxes by using VTI over FSKAX, but you KNOW you'll save on the expense ratio.
$200,000 x .0015 = $300 per year for FSKAX, versus $200,000 x .0003 = $60 per year for VTI. Savings = $240 just on the ongoing expense ratio.

Edit, turns out the ER of 0.15 below is inaccurate. It's actually .015. This means the FSKAX fund is less expensive. Regards,
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER
According to the Vanguard website, the turnover for VTI & VTSAX is 3.4%. Since they are two share classes of the same fund, it stands to reason that the turnover is identical.

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Regards,
Thanks. I updated to .015

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:00 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:39 am
Clone it in Google Drive and use Google Spreadsheets (it uses Google's finance API so downloading it locally won't help).

Update Federal and QDI to the tax bracket. Didn't really have time to change the numbers so I might be off.
Scroll down to FSTVX and change that to FSKAX.
Expense ratio should be updated to 0.015 and dividends too if you can (the dividends are similar enough it really doesn't matter)..

Then look at the total expense at end.
That said, general rule of thumb is:
iShares and Vanguard on taxable
Vanguard and Fidelity on tax advantaged

At end of day, we are talking about +- < 0.1%. 10 cents every $100. Don't fret too much.
I cloned it made a copy to my drive.

I changed FSTVX to FSKAX and nothing changed below. The er and everything stays the same unless I manually need to do this.

How do I find the divident or distrobution rate for FSKAK to plug in? Says 1.25 in the sheet

If I am at 24% I guess 15% for QDI?
Last edited by rocketsrule on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
White Coat Investor
Posts: 14269
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Greatest Snow On Earth

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by White Coat Investor » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:07 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am


Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes. These differences are very minimal. Do what is most convenient for you on this subject.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

Northern Flicker
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Northern Flicker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
Index fund investor since 1987.

User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 16720
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:10 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am
When I have extra money, I have been just adding funds and purchasing more FSKAX (total US market) in my taxable or buying more in my Roth IRA each year when contributions can be made.

In addition, I want to sell down some of my International and reallocate to Total Market.
Do you think it would be worth while to purchase Total Market funds as VTI or VTSAX as it doesn't look like there is a trade fee now to hold Vanguard in Fido. I could shift my Intl funds to it and also use it for future contributions. Now sure how much it will save me year end on tax efficiency
Comparing
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.015 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
It's okay to mix total market types.

I think that at Fidelity there is a fee to buy Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX).

Also consider iShares Core S&P Total U.S. Stock Market ETF (ITOT) ER 0.03%. It's available at Fidelity commission free.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm

Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6906
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm

anon_investor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:46 am
VTI or ITOT should both work in taxable, both have 0.03% expense ratios. They do track different total US stock market indexes, so their returns might be slightly different, but overall very similar.

Since you hold VTEB, you obviously are familiar with using ETFs, but one draw back is you have to buy per share vs. a dollar amount. Personally, I have my taxable at Vanguard and use VTSAX because I like the convenience of putting in a dollar amount per paycheck vs. having left over change buying ETF shares.
I'd also use ITOT or VTI. Another nice thing about them tracking different indexes is that you can tax-loss harvest between them without any concern for the IRS knocking on your door.

OP, why are you moving out of Total International? You know it'll outperform US equities the day after you sell, right?

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6906
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:44 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm
Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10
Good luck. You are not just market timing, but far worse, you are performance chasing. This does not usually end well.

anon_investor
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by anon_investor » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:48 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm
OP, why are you moving out of Total International? You know it'll outperform US equities the day after you sell, right?
Ain't that the truth! :twisted: :beer

Northern Flicker
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Northern Flicker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:56 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm
Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10
Why are you investing in stocks at all if a 10-20% drop causes you to want to sell?
Index fund investor since 1987.

User avatar
Leif
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:15 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Leif » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:17 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:18 am
There is not a trading fee to buy Vanguard ETFs like VTI at Fidelity but not sure if there is no fee to buy Vanguard mutual funds like VTSAX at Fidelity.
$75 fee at Fidelity to purchase out of network (i.e., Vanguard) MFs. No fee to sell.

The problem with holding Fidelity MF in taxable is potential capital gain distributions. I have unfortunately experienced this myself. Whereas with Vanguard funds, that have an associated ETF class, they seldom, if ever, have CG distributions. I wish I had bought these funds in my taxable at Vanguard.
Last edited by Leif on Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Wiggums
Posts: 1954
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Wiggums » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:49 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm

I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10
You should not base your Equities decision based on a very short period of time.
Last edited by Wiggums on Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chrono Triggered
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Chrono Triggered » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:03 pm

ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:10 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am
When I have extra money, I have been just adding funds and purchasing more FSKAX (total US market) in my taxable or buying more in my Roth IRA each year when contributions can be made.

In addition, I want to sell down some of my International and reallocate to Total Market.
Do you think it would be worth while to purchase Total Market funds as VTI or VTSAX as it doesn't look like there is a trade fee now to hold Vanguard in Fido. I could shift my Intl funds to it and also use it for future contributions. Now sure how much it will save me year end on tax efficiency
Comparing
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.015 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
It's okay to mix total market types.

I think that at Fidelity there is a fee to buy Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX).

Also consider iShares Core S&P Total U.S. Stock Market ETF (ITOT) ER 0.03%. It's available at Fidelity commission free.
Correct, there is a fee to purchase VTSAX at Fidelity. Commissions for ETFs in general are free at Fidelity now so one can select any broad market fund of their choosing.

OP, ITOT and VTI are great selections to target at Fidelity. Either or, mix and match, entirely up to you. All are practically identical in terms of performance and tax efficiency. If you want a Vanguard mutual fund in taxable, I suggest you create a Vanguard brokerage account.

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:10 pm

Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:56 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm
Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:01 am
I think VTI in taxable is more efficient than FSKAX
By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10
Why are you investing in stocks at all if a 10-20% drop causes you to want to sell?
I don't want to market time at all. I just want to bring down my position on international little bit and move it to total US. Have a good amount and would just like to bring the percentage down a little bit.

I have to double check but in my 4011 I have a tech sector fund that I've used for a long time that has some of those companies in it from the international. I try to keep a simple 3 fund porfolio with some money and tech sector as my wild card

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:13 pm

Chrono Triggered wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:03 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:10 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 am
When I have extra money, I have been just adding funds and purchasing more FSKAX (total US market) in my taxable or buying more in my Roth IRA each year when contributions can be made.

In addition, I want to sell down some of my International and reallocate to Total Market.
Do you think it would be worth while to purchase Total Market funds as VTI or VTSAX as it doesn't look like there is a trade fee now to hold Vanguard in Fido. I could shift my Intl funds to it and also use it for future contributions. Now sure how much it will save me year end on tax efficiency
Comparing
FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.015 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
It's okay to mix total market types.

I think that at Fidelity there is a fee to buy Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX).

Also consider iShares Core S&P Total U.S. Stock Market ETF (ITOT) ER 0.03%. It's available at Fidelity commission free.
Correct, there is a fee to purchase VTSAX at Fidelity. Commissions for ETFs in general are free at Fidelity now so one can select any broad market fund of their choosing.

OP, ITOT and VTI are great selections to target at Fidelity. Either or, mix and match, entirely up to you. All are practically identical in terms of performance and tax efficiency. If you want a Vanguard mutual fund in taxable, I suggest you create a Vanguard brokerage account.
I like to keep it simple and most of my funds are in Fidelity so if I can pick up a VTI or itot there I would much rather do so especially if it doesn't cost me anything extra to purchase out a network.

I have a lot of fidelity total US (FSKAX) but pumping in money moving forward I want something that's going to have less capital gain distros so I will keep what I have currently and then just fund the one of other two ETFs

Chrono Triggered
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Chrono Triggered » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:16 pm

rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:10 pm
Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:56 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:40 pm
Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
rocketsrule wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:06 am


By how much. Lets say 200K of VTI vs 200K of FSKax for 2018 tax year?

FSKAX - 17% Turnover / 0.15 ER
VTSAX - 3% Turnover / 0.04 ER
VTI -Cant find Turnover / 0.03 ER

Is it ok to mix total market types?
Yes you can mix total market index funds from different providers. ETFs and Vanguard index mutual funds are more tax-efficient because they generally do not distribute capital gains (and it is reasonable to assume they never will).

For a total int’l index, IXUS is more tax-efficient than the Vanguard funds in this space, which are in turn more tax-efficient than the Fidelity funds.

Differences in securities lending and transaction costs including soft-dollar fees make it impossible to compare the overall costs of two index funds whose ERs differ by a couple of basis points of so.
I'm trying to get out of international. My US to international is about 80/20 and I got hit all last year pretty hard and just am back to even. I know it's good to have both but I want to probably sell half of it and move the rest back into US so maybe 90/10
Why are you investing in stocks at all if a 10-20% drop causes you to want to sell?
I don't want to market time at all. I just want to bring down my position on international little bit and move it to total US. Have a good amount and would just like to bring the percentage down a little bit.

I have to double check but in my 4011 I have a tech sector fund that I've used for a long time that has some of those companies in it from the international. I try to keep a simple 3 fund porfolio with some money and tech sector as my wild card
What made you change your mind from a 80/20 domestic:international allocation to a 90/10 besides international being down? Sounds like recency bias is at play here.

Northern Flicker
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by Northern Flicker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:21 pm

I have to double check but in my 4011 I have a tech sector fund that I've used for a long time that has some of those companies in it from the international. I try to keep a simple 3 fund porfolio with some money and tech sector as my wild card
Well, I can tell you that I believe that most professional investment managers including institutional portfolio managers of the most successful investing institutions would tell you that the recent over-performance of the tech sector and underperformance of non-US equities is a great opportunity to lock in your gains in the tech sector by liquidating all of it, and rebalancing back to your established allocation to non-US equities. No guarantees of returns of course but if you asked my advice it would be to ditch the tech sector fund and bump up non-US equities to 24-25% of equities.

Tax efficiency comparisons of different funds is a non-issue in a 401K.
Index fund investor since 1987.

Topic Author
rocketsrule
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: Fido Customer - Fidelity Total Market vs Vanguard Total Market

Post by rocketsrule » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:34 am

Northern Flicker wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:21 pm
I have to double check but in my 4011 I have a tech sector fund that I've used for a long time that has some of those companies in it from the international. I try to keep a simple 3 fund porfolio with some money and tech sector as my wild card
Well, I can tell you that I believe that most professional investment managers including institutional portfolio managers of the most successful investing institutions would tell you that the recent over-performance of the tech sector and underperformance of non-US equities is a great opportunity to lock in your gains in the tech sector by liquidating all of it, and rebalancing back to your established allocation to non-US equities. No guarantees of returns of course but if you asked my advice it would be to ditch the tech sector fund and bump up non-US equities to 24-25% of equities.

Tax efficiency comparisons of different funds is a non-issue in a 401K.
I think I will just keep riding this for a little longer. Been in it since about 2012 and havent really added more money to it since. Around $80k now but maybe I should think about locking it in and just moving to something else.
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/slmcx

Have some funds tied up in BSPIX in the 401K for SP500 so maybe I can shift to that as I dont really have any good INtl offerings in the 401k other than 1 with over 1% er
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/bspix

Post Reply