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One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:05 pm
by renue74
I'm considering a life change this year and visited a local financial advisor a few weeks ago. About 40% of our net worth is in paid off rental property...with the rest in a well balanced 65/35 AA set of vanguard funds. I started self-managing in 2015 after discovering this forum.

Well....I wanted to get a 3rd party POV on our overall situation....including rental property...any tax strategies, etc.

I was pretty adamant to the FA that I was only looking for a one time fee only relationship for him to look at everything and give me insight.

He quoted $3350 for this.

The last time I did this was way back in 2010 or so and I think I paid $400. Is over $3K normal for a one time advisor?

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 pm
by mhalley
Sounds like a normal amount from what I have read on the internet, it depends on the advisor. Depends on how comprehensive a plan you want. You can go as low as $96 for Mark Zoril. I did a consultation with him ( but I just had a couple very specific questions I wanted a second opinion on) and was satisfied. The year of e money is worth the fee.
https://planvisionmn.com/

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:29 pm
by dbr
You could ask exactly what he is going to deliver for this fee. What did you say you wanted him to do?

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:35 pm
by Dottie57
A friend did this. It was an hourly fee. The advisor needed documentation - expenses, assets, pensions, mortgages and an inherited annuity. They delivered a solid plan on taking a lump sum annuity and then Stuffing lots into tax deferred. Also delivered a plan for retirement. It was a cost between 1500 tp 2000.


I too wonder what op is expecting. Approval, a tax plan?

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:44 pm
by MittensMoney
Just a note - if there is one nearby, you should seek out an advisor who has the CPA designation. The tax knowledge for your rental properties won't necessarily be in the wheelhouse of your average FA.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:09 pm
by DarkHelmetII
I got a fee only fiduciary review for $2,000. Was helpful for an unbiased sanity check. But, regardless of how much you are willing to pay, I think it is hard to find any one professional who truly understands the nuances of real estate + all of the tax wrinkles (with and without the real estate) in conjunction with all of the "core" bogleheads principles of stocks and bonds.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:40 pm
by Nate79
Maybe instead try Rick Ferri.

https://rickferri.com/investors/

Might save a little but at least you can trust his advice.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:45 pm
by whodidntante
For $3350 I would expect a bicycle worth at least $1500 to come with the advice.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:02 pm
by megabad
renue74 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:05 pm
The last time I did this was way back in 2010 or so and I think I paid $400. Is over $3K normal for a one time advisor?
According to Kiplinger (https://www.kiplinger.com/article/retir ... eckup.html), in 2014, the average cost was between $600 and $1500 for a one time planning session. I would expect that this includes a face to face meeting and a brief analysis primarily driven by a simple software package. This would not include any analysis of significant real estate holdings in my opinion.

If you are looking for real estate analysis and tax planning these would be additional services that could cost more. Also, if you are speaking to someone who is not an hourly planner, you would almost certainly pay far more than you should. Was the quote from an actual hourly planner? Or from an AUM planner who is giving you a one-off quote for this abnormal service?

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 am
by rolandtorres
I had time with both Mark Zoril for $96 and Grove (hellogrove.com) for $600. You have to have your financial life in some order and be comfortable with online questionnaires and connecting your accounts online with either. I got the sense Mark was more used to dealing with simplifying hairier /complex situations than my simple one so I'm not sure I got much out of it, but for $96 it was worth a shot. For Grove, it felt like a more traditional plan developed so the pricing seemed like good value- the only issue is their long waitlist.

Given your probable need for good tax advice I'd also consider Allan Roth.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 am
by msk
40% of NW is in paid off RE. Could be one condo, could be 100 units scattered in 10 states...
I'd say if the charge is less than 0.1% of NW then it sounds like a very reasonable quote. If more than 1% of NW it sounds excessive. Obviously the OP considers his circumstances complex enough to require somebody else's reassurance. Simple: state the details comprehensively here on BH and you'll get very sensible advice for free. Then you can get a financial adviser to to tie up any loose ends on specific items.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:47 am
by student
rolandtorres wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:03 am
I had time with both Mark Zoril for $96 and Grove (hellogrove.com) for $600. You have to have your financial life in some order and be comfortable with online questionnaires and connecting your accounts online with either. I got the sense Mark was more used to dealing with simplifying hairier /complex situations than my simple one so I'm not sure I got much out of it, but for $96 it was worth a shot. For Grove, it felt like a more traditional plan developed so the pricing seemed like good value- the only issue is their long waitlist.

Given your probable need for good tax advice I'd also consider Allan Roth.
I have never heard of Mark Zoril but it looks interesting. For $96 it maybe worthwhile for the OP to take a look. Judging form the videos, it seems that one can manually input the assets rather that connecting the accounts. The funniest line from the FAQ is "Mark Zoril invests all of his money in a Vanguard 2040 Retirement Date Fund. "

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:12 am
by Mr.BB
Why not get quotes from more advisors? Check out the Garnett Network, you'll be able to find experts with different backgrounds and of course prices.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:47 am
by renue74
I think what I am looking for is "optimization."

Am I doing all that I can to make fair returns at the risk level I'm at?
Are there any tax strategies I'm missing on our rental properties beyond simple repair expenses and depreciation that I should be doing?
Should I move the rental properties into their own LLC and not own them personally?

I keep very detailed Google sheets of our portfolio. I track net worth and estimated/planned retirement projections. I don't need, nor want the advisor to give me suggestions on AA, fund holdings, etc.

To answer another question from above....this is an AUM advisor who I asked for a one time review. Independent guy. He is a referral from my real estate agent. I had asked him for somebody who knew something about rentals...but I'm not sure any FA is well versed or qualified to discuss this.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:56 am
by ruralavalon
renue74 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:05 pm
I'm considering a life change this year and visited a local financial advisor a few weeks ago. About 40% of our net worth is in paid off rental property...with the rest in a well balanced 65/35 AA set of vanguard funds. I started self-managing in 2015 after discovering this forum.

Well....I wanted to get a 3rd party POV on our overall situation....including rental property...any tax strategies, etc.

I was pretty adamant to the FA that I was only looking for a one time fee only relationship for him to look at everything and give me insight.

He quoted $3350 for this.

The last time I did this was way back in 2010 or so and I think I paid $400. Is over $3K normal for a one time advisor?
renue74 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:47 am
I think what I am looking for is "optimization."

Am I doing all that I can to make fair returns at the risk level I'm at?
Are there any tax strategies I'm missing on our rental properties beyond simple repair expenses and depreciation that I should be doing?
Should I move the rental properties into their own LLC and not own them personally?

I keep very detailed Google sheets of our portfolio. I track net worth and estimated/planned retirement projections. I don't need, nor want the advisor to give me suggestions on AA, fund holdings, etc.

To answer another question from above....this is an AUM advisor who I asked for a one time review. Independent guy. He is a referral from my real estate agent. I had asked him for somebody who knew something about rentals...but I'm not sure any FA is well versed or qualified to discuss this [emphasis added].
It depends on what the advisor was asked to do. It depends on whether tor not the advisor can really help with tax strategy on your real estate investments, which seems to be your main issue.

We did consult a planner when I switched to managing our own investments, and paid several thousand dollars for 4 half day long planning sessions.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 am
by dbr
renue74 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:47 am
I think what I am looking for is "optimization."

Am I doing all that I can to make fair returns at the risk level I'm at?
Are there any tax strategies I'm missing on our rental properties beyond simple repair expenses and depreciation that I should be doing?
Should I move the rental properties into their own LLC and not own them personally?

I keep very detailed Google sheets of our portfolio. I track net worth and estimated/planned retirement projections. I don't need, nor want the advisor to give me suggestions on AA, fund holdings, etc.

To answer another question from above....this is an AUM advisor who I asked for a one time review. Independent guy. He is a referral from my real estate agent. I had asked him for somebody who knew something about rentals...but I'm not sure any FA is well versed or qualified to discuss this.
Assuming you can supply the needed data in a format the advisor can process with little effort, I think that fee might be excessive for a first look at optimization. On the other hand sitting down to actually model the implications of various adjustments could be time consuming and therefore expensive. Does this FA understand exactly what you want?

Getting a fair return at your risk level is kind of a cut and dried thing that wouldn't be expensive to advise. You would get as good an answer to that posting here as from any advisor.

How to handle tax and business decisions for rental properties is probably something most so called FAs don't/can't do anyway. What has he said about that question?

I think his cost is partly that the business he really wants is AUM and you have to pay him a premium to go outside his business model.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:53 pm
by Rob5TCP
For a few hundred dollars, it would be worth it to me
to get a second opinion (objective, fixed fee, non
commission advisor).

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:40 pm
by Godot
mhalley wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 pm
Sounds like a normal amount from what I have read on the internet, it depends on the advisor. Depends on how comprehensive a plan you want. You can go as low as $96 for Mark Zoril. I did a consultation with him ( but I just had a couple very specific questions I wanted a second opinion on) and was satisfied. The year of e money is worth the fee.
https://planvisionmn.com/
Glad to see this, although I'm curious about how he makes money charging only $96 annual fee.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:02 pm
by miket29
another advisor that seems to follow a Bogle-type approach using index funds is Allan Roth at https://daretobedull.com/

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:12 pm
by rolandtorres
Godot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:40 pm
mhalley wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 pm
Sounds like a normal amount from what I have read on the internet, it depends on the advisor. Depends on how comprehensive a plan you want. You can go as low as $96 for Mark Zoril. I did a consultation with him ( but I just had a couple very specific questions I wanted a second opinion on) and was satisfied. The year of e money is worth the fee.
https://planvisionmn.com/
Glad to see this, although I'm curious about how he makes money charging only $96 annual fee.
Mark is a decent guy and you can read a few things on the internet about how he's helped ex-pats and he used to comment on Finance Buff. He saves time by asking you watch his youtube setup tutorials instead of handholding you. But he also saves time I suspect by not doing a ton of prep work before your meeting with him and the sweet spot (I suspect) is for someone with minimal financial literacy to get to a reasonably good place. For $96, that's a steal compared to what else is out there. I'm not sure he's going to enlighten a Bogleheader that much- as stated above, he himself invests in a TDF.

Re: One time fee only advisor - costs?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:37 pm
by Watty
Where your advisor is at will also make a difference. One in an expensive area like New York City will likely cost a lot more than one in the midwest.