Vanguard International Fund down for year?

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Jesteroftheswamp
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Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Jesteroftheswamp » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:31 pm

I was reading the Annual Report for Vanguard Total International and not sure I understood it but I THINK it mentioned the fund was down 8 percent. Can anyone confirm this??

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jhfenton
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by jhfenton » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm

VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.

Silk McCue
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Silk McCue » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:36 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:31 pm
I was reading the Annual Report for Vanguard Total International and not sure I understood it but I THINK it mentioned the fund was down 8 percent. Can anyone confirm this??
Vanguard is a great source for answers to questions like these.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... ance/vtiax

Cheers

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Jesteroftheswamp
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Jesteroftheswamp » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:40 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
Down from what?? How do I know if I gained or lost $$$?

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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:40 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
According to Yahoo Finance, VTIAX opened on January 1 at 30.85 and closed December 31 at 25.37, which works out to a change of 17.76%.
"I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." (Aaron Sorkin)

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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:41 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:40 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
Down from what?? How do I know if I gained or lost $$$?
Compare the price at which you bought to the price today. If today's price is less, you lost money. If today's price is more, you gained.
"I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." (Aaron Sorkin)

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Jesteroftheswamp
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Jesteroftheswamp » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???

Silk McCue
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Silk McCue » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
From Jan 1 2018 through December 31 2018 the price of the stock went down. That’s how you have a negative return. For the year it was down 14.43%. Look at the link I provided earlier.

Cheers

tibbitts
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by tibbitts » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:54 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
I don't think anyone understands your question. With most equity investments, domestic or international, if you held them a year ago and didn't add or subtract from your positions, you lost money. That's kind of the end of the story.

If you are asking how to calculate your return with share purchases or sales during the year, then yes the math gets complicated. What are you trying to do?

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Jesteroftheswamp
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Jesteroftheswamp » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
From Jan 1 2018 through December 31 2018 the price of the stock went down. That’s how you have a negative return. For the year it was down 14.43%. Look at the link I provided earlier.

Cheers
VTIAX opened on January 2 at 30.85 and closed December 31 at 25.37, which works out to a change of 17.76%, so where is the 14% from?

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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by livesoft » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:00 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
What report?

If you end up with less than you started with then that is a negative return. Example: Buy $10,000 worth, it goes down in value to $9,000, so you lost 10%. That's a -10% return. You have only 100% - 10% or 90% of your value left.
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SpringMan
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by SpringMan » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:00 pm

The fund was down but comparing only the share price change does not tell whole story since the fund pays a quarterly dividend. My recollection is yahoo does not factor in the dividends.
Best Wishes, SpringMan

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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Silk McCue » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:02 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
From Jan 1 2018 through December 31 2018 the price of the stock went down. That’s how you have a negative return. For the year it was down 14.43%. Look at the link I provided earlier.

Cheers
VTIAX opened on January 2 at 30.85 and closed December 31 at 25.37, which works out to a change of 17.76%, so where is the 14% from?
Reinvested dividends are not accounted for when doing point to point calculations and are thus not useful.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... ions/vtiax

Cheers

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Jesteroftheswamp
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by Jesteroftheswamp » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:02 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm
jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:33 pm
VTIAX (Vanguard Total International Admiral) was down 14.43% in 2018.
The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
From Jan 1 2018 through December 31 2018 the price of the stock went down. That’s how you have a negative return. For the year it was down 14.43%. Look at the link I provided earlier.

Cheers
VTIAX opened on January 2 at 30.85 and closed December 31 at 25.37, which works out to a change of 17.76%, so where is the 14% from?
Reinvested dividends are not accounted for when doing point to point calculations and are thus not useful.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... ions/vtiax

Cheers
So the 14% is taking into account reinvested dividends?

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by UpperNwGuy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:15 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:31 pm
I was reading the Annual Report for Vanguard Total International and not sure I understood it but I THINK it mentioned the fund was down 8 percent. Can anyone confirm this??
You must be referencing the fund’s annual report that Vanguard emailed out this morning. If you look at the date on the report, it is October 31, 2018, so the results are from November 2017 through October 2018. That means it includes two good months that preceded calendar year 2018 and excludes two bad months at the end of calendar year 2018. So the decline, measured as total return, is between 8 and 9 percent. Calendar year 2018 results are worse than that because they are missing those two good months and include two bad months.
Last edited by UpperNwGuy on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

e5116
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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by e5116 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:16 pm

Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:08 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:02 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm
Jesteroftheswamp wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:46 pm


The report says Vanguard Into Stock returned -8.71%; how do you computer a negative return???
From Jan 1 2018 through December 31 2018 the price of the stock went down. That’s how you have a negative return. For the year it was down 14.43%. Look at the link I provided earlier.

Cheers
VTIAX opened on January 2 at 30.85 and closed December 31 at 25.37, which works out to a change of 17.76%, so where is the 14% from?
Reinvested dividends are not accounted for when doing point to point calculations and are thus not useful.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... ions/vtiax

Cheers
So the 14% is taking into account reinvested dividends?
Yes, the negative 14% is the TOTAL RETURN of the fund for the year.

From Vanguard:
"What is "total return"?
Total return figures take into account not only the increases (and decreases) in the prices of the shares you own but also the value of any payouts you received. (It also assumes these payouts are reinvested and continue to grow.)

For instance, your stock fund's share price may have gone from $50 to $60 during the reporting period, which would be a 20% increase. If the fund also paid a dividend of $5 per share, your total return is 30%."

https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... ce-details

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Re: Vanguard International Fund down for year?

Post by nisiprius » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:40 pm

If you invested $10,000 into VTIAX in a brokerage account on 1/1/2018, and accepted the default of reinvesting dividends, then today, if you look into your account, you will see $8,556.71 which means that you've lost $10,000 - $8,556.71 = $1,443.29 = 14.4329%.

Returns are stated as gains.

Losses are stated as negative gains.

Returns are customarily rounded to two decimal places. So, the total return was -14.43%.

Source

Image

If you did not reinvest dividends, then your VTIAX account would show a loss of 16.87%, but you will also see money from fund dividend payments which went into your settlement account, so you did not lose 16.87%, but less. Exactly how much less, to the penny, depends on exactly on what you did with those dividend payments.

Image
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