Order cancellation at Vanguard

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rks
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Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by rks »

Is it true that once an order for say buying a Vanguard mutual fund is place on Vanguard website, you cannot cancel it before it is executed after market close. I placed a buy order for VTSMX early in the morning and later decided to cancel it, I even see a cancel button on order status page. When I click it, it says it is outside the window to allow cancellation. I even called their customer service, and after being on hold for almost 30 min, the person tells me they do not allow cancellation even if order has not been executed. I have Fidelity account too, and they do not have such a strict policy.
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JoMoney
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by JoMoney »

I've cancelled a pending order at Vanguard when the market was closed (i.e. a weekend), but not for an order placed during market hours.
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Blake7
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by Blake7 »

I'd be interested to know what Vanguard's cancellation window is upon placing an order, since they disallow a non-executed order to be cancelled?
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BL
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by BL »

Seems like I always get the warning that an order cannot be cancelled, so have always assumed that is the case. This is with the old platform and funds, not ETFs.
yohac
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by yohac »

Yesterday I was able to cancel a Vanguard bond fund exchange, a couple hours before the close. I'm on the "new" platform.
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JoMoney
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by JoMoney »

Blake7 wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm I'd be interested to know what Vanguard's cancellation window is upon placing an order, since they disallow a non-executed order to be cancelled?
There's a difference between mutual fund orders, and stock/ETF trade orders. Hopefully it's obvious you can cancel the latter if not executed. Mutual funds operate in a different environment since they have to trade at net asset value of whatever the closing price is and need some additional buffer to manage their transactions for the day.
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4nursebee
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by 4nursebee »

How far away from market close was the cancel order placed?

I see posts on forums from 2007 saying the same thing happened, that it is not allowed.

Perhaps read over all the paperwork when signing up for accounts could help.
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Blake7
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by Blake7 »

JoMoney wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:15 pm
Blake7 wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm I'd be interested to know what Vanguard's cancellation window is upon placing an order, since they disallow a non-executed order to be cancelled?
There's a difference between mutual fund orders, and stock/ETF trade orders. Hopefully it's obvious you can cancel the latter if not executed. Mutual funds operate in a different environment since they have to trade at net asset value of whatever the closing price is and need some additional buffer to manage their transactions for the day.
Yes, I'm aware stock and ETF trades can be cancelled before execution. Since the OP's question was regarding mutual funds, it still doesn't seem right Vanguard would prohibit a cancellation before it's executed. It takes a day for the transactions to update online after all, so you'd think they be able to reconcile things as long as the mutual fund transaction is cancelled before 1600 EST. And why tease the clients with a cancel order button that isn't greyed out and declines the cancellation once clicked? Anyway, life goes on.
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jhfenton
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by jhfenton »

In my experience you can now cancel open mutual fund orders on the brokerage platform until sometime after 1 PM ET. The exact time is unstated, and I haven't made any effort to nail down the exact time.

I assume that fund managers receive a summary of open orders in the afternoon and can use that to estimate cash flows. Yes, you can enter orders at 3:59 PM, but locking them in as they come in during the afternoon probably helps the fund managers.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by ResearchMed »

Blake7 wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:40 pm
JoMoney wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:15 pm
Blake7 wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm I'd be interested to know what Vanguard's cancellation window is upon placing an order, since they disallow a non-executed order to be cancelled?
There's a difference between mutual fund orders, and stock/ETF trade orders. Hopefully it's obvious you can cancel the latter if not executed. Mutual funds operate in a different environment since they have to trade at net asset value of whatever the closing price is and need some additional buffer to manage their transactions for the day.
Yes, I'm aware stock and ETF trades can be cancelled before execution. Since the OP's question was regarding mutual funds, it still doesn't seem right Vanguard would prohibit a cancellation before it's executed. It takes a day for the transactions to update online after all, so you'd think they be able to reconcile things as long as the mutual fund transaction is cancelled before 1600 EST. And why tease the clients with a cancel order button that isn't greyed out and declines the cancellation once clicked? Anyway, life goes on.
There is a very clear window message that one must acknowledge prior to confirming a mutual fund purchase/sale at Vanguard, and it states that no cancellations are allowed.
(I've heard occasional reports of cancellations being done, but I've assumed there were special circumstances...)

Yes, at Fidelity (and other brokerage firms) they can be cancelled before the close (or other deadline, if appropriate), but Vanguard is entitled to their own rules.
If you prefer the ability to cancel after submitting a mutual fund order, then do those elsewhere.

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jhfenton
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by jhfenton »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:06 pm There is a very clear window message that one must acknowledge prior to confirming a mutual fund purchase/sale at Vanguard, and it states that no cancellations are allowed.
(I've heard occasional reports of cancellations being done, but I've assumed there were special circumstances...)
It says "Once you've submitted this transaction, you may not be able to cancel or change it." (emphasis added)

It's not special circumstances. I cancel orders occasionally. There is an undisclosed cut-off in the early afternoon. The ability to cancel is not promised, but it's been that way for the 3 years I've been a Vanguard customer on the brokerage platform. I can't speak to the old mutual fund-only platform.
ResearchMed wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:06 pm Yes, at Fidelity (and other brokerage firms) they can be cancelled before the close (or other deadline, if appropriate), but Vanguard is entitled to their own rules.
If you prefer the ability to cancel after submitting a mutual fund order, then do those elsewhere.
Agreed. I'm fine with their policy.
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by abuss368 »

Interesting. I never attempted to cancel an order as we always purchased whatever investment was below our asset allocation.
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ishkadetto
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by ishkadetto »

I wanted to post my data point today in case it's helpful for anyone. I placed an order to exchange a fund into VFWAX when what I wanted was to exchange into VTWAX. Ooops!

Within 15 minutes of making the error, I went to "order status" and clicked "cancel", and was given the message: "Your request to cancel order numbers ######## was sent to Vanguard for approval on 03/21/2019 at 1:55 p.m., Eastern time. To track your request, View order status from the link below. Your orders will be canceled only if they have not been executed. Print this confirmation for your records."

When I now check "order status" it shows "Cancelled" as the new status, so I believe it worked.
Ken.
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by Ken. »

I just accidentally sold the wrong Vanguard fund this Friday evening at around 10:30pm PST, and went to cancel it around 11pm. The confirmation page on the website said that I could track my request on the Order Status page (actually it was the same verbiage that ishkadetto wrote above). So I went there and it showed the order status as being cancelled.

I was wondering how reliable that is. Can I assume that it has indeed been canceled, or should I call on Monday morning just to follow up? I think I will do that anyway but I thought I would just check with the bogleheads here.
SxSW
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by SxSW »

You can check the account on Monday to confirm without calling.
Ken.
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by Ken. »

I will check it on Monday but I think I will also call just to be doubly sure, mainly because of the message you see when you place a purchase that once purchased you may not be able to cancel the order.

Also I noticed that unlike when you place an order you get an email confirmation I did not get any email confirmation after I cancelled the order.
rossington
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by rossington »

Ken. wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:39 pm I will check it on Monday but I think I will also call just to be doubly sure, mainly because of the message you see when you place a purchase that once purchased you may not be able to cancel the order.

Also I noticed that unlike when you place an order you get an email confirmation I did not get any email confirmation after I cancelled the order.
If the cancel for some reason did not go through just exchange back and sell the original desired fund at the same time on Monday.
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jhfenton
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by jhfenton »

Ken. wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:24 am I just accidentally sold the wrong Vanguard fund this Friday evening at around 10:30pm PST, and went to cancel it around 11pm. The confirmation page on the website said that I could track my request on the Order Status page (actually it was the same verbiage that ishkadetto wrote above). So I went there and it showed the order status as being cancelled.

I was wondering how reliable that is. Can I assume that it has indeed been canceled, or should I call on Monday morning just to follow up? I think I will do that anyway but I thought I would just check with the bogleheads here.
If it shows the order as cancelled it is cancelled. You can absolutely cancel orders entered outside markets. Orders become uncancellable sometime in the afternoon on market days. If you try to cancel an order after the deadline, it will explicitly tell you that it could not be cancelled.
Ken.
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Re: Order cancellation at Vanguard

Post by Ken. »

rossington wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:47 am If the cancel for some reason did not go through just exchange back and sell the original desired fund at the same time on Monday.
Yes, but I would have to pay capital gains tax since the sale was not cancelled.
jhfenton wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:43 pm If it shows the order as cancelled it is cancelled. You can absolutely cancel orders entered outside markets. Orders become uncancellable sometime in the afternoon on market days. If you try to cancel an order after the deadline, it will explicitly tell you that it could not be cancelled.
Thanks for the clarification jhfenton. The sell order I cancelled no longer shows in my Order Status or Pending Activity views so I guess it's all good now.
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