Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

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ACJC
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Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by ACJC » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm

VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊

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abuss368
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Re: Which is better?

Post by abuss368 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:54 pm

What are the fund names for these ticker symbols?
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

mortfree
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Re: Which is better?

Post by mortfree » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm

Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.

I use VTI.

Doesn’t mean anything in regards to what the OP may consider better though.

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Which is better?

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:18 pm

VTI - Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF
VT - Vanguard Total World Stock ETF

I had to look them up, so I'll post the results here so others won't have to.

And, yes, I am a real Boglehead, and I don't appreciate the insulting remark that I might not be. In fact, I'm such a real Boglehead that I invest only in mutual funds and ignore the ETFs.

inverter
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Re: Which is better?

Post by inverter » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Either is fine. Depends on your own investment thesis.

John Laurens
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Re: Which is better?

Post by John Laurens » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:20 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:54 pm
What are the fund names for these ticker symbols?
VTI is a Vanguard US Total Stock Index exchange traded fund.

VT is Vanguard Total World Index exchange traded fund.

In your “signature”, what does REIT stand for?

Regards,
John

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abuss368
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Re: Which is better?

Post by abuss368 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:22 pm

John Laurens wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:20 pm

In your “signature”, what does REIT stand for?

Regards,
John
Hi John -

REIT - Real Estate Investment Trust

www.reit.com if you would like to better understand real estate as an investment class.
Last edited by abuss368 on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

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abuss368
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Re: Which is better?

Post by abuss368 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 pm

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.
I would suspect that many Bogleheads do not know ticker symbols. Many years ago when we traded individual stocks, I could easily recall well over a hundred (and more) ticker symbols. It was all worthless and for nothing. Once I learned the Boglehead approach to investing, ticker symbols became a thing of the past!
Last edited by abuss368 on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

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abuss368
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Re: Which is better?

Post by abuss368 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:25 pm

ACJC wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm
VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊
Either would be fine. Consider an all in one Lifestyle or Target fund.
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

mortfree
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Re: Which is better?

Post by mortfree » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:28 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:25 pm
ACJC wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm
VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊
Either would be fine. Consider an all in one Lifestyle or Target fund.
Lifestrategy fund. Probably auto corrected.

Consider tax efficiency of those two alternatives

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abuss368
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Re: Which is better?

Post by abuss368 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:29 pm

ACJC wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm
VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊
Have you considered a 529 Plan as a possible option?
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + U.S. & International REITs

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Which is better?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:00 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 pm
mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.
I would suspect that many Bogleheads do not know ticker symbols. Many years ago when we traded individual stocks, I could easily recall well over a hundred (and more) ticker symbols. It was all worthless and for nothing. Once I learned the Boglehead approach to investing, ticker symbols became a thing of the past!

Agreed. Far too many ticker symbols to remember them all:
This Excel spreadsheet was updated in September 2017. It is broken down into eight sheets, one each for

stocks (106332 tickers)
ETFs (21196tickers)
futures (9294 tickers)
indices (80017 tickers)
mutual funds (24926 tickers)
currency pairs (4019 tickers)

That’s 245784 tickers symbols in total.
source: http://investexcel.net/all-yahoo-finance-stock-tickers/
245,784 is an awful lot of ticker symbols to have to memorize. I'll look them up instead, or merely suggest when people post tickers, to repost listing out the names of the funds themselves.
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

mega317
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Re: Which is better?

Post by mega317 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:25 pm

"Better" is not a useful word.

VTI for someone who doesn't want international, or wants international at a different ratio, or cares about a few basis points in expense ratio.
VT for someone who values simplicity, wants to hold the market weight of international.

Neither is better than the other. Or at least reasonable people will disagree.

I'm bummed for you that this turned into a ticker thread. Maybe editing your original post will fix that?

22twain
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Re: Which is better?

Post by 22twain » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:35 pm

mega317 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:25 pm
"Better" is not a useful word.
Bingo. You (the original poster) needs to define what “better” means for you.
My investing princiPLEs do not include absolutely preserving princiPAL.

ACJC
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Re: Which is better?

Post by ACJC » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:16 am

Yes we already have 529’s :). Sorry I used symbols instead of the complete name of the ETF. I will do some more researching regarding the Life Strategy funds and tax efficiency regarding a brokerage account instead of a 401k for example. The VT (total world) does have international exposure and is more expensive. Your expertise is always awesome here!! Thanks for the answers. I don’t think either is a bad option just making sure I’m making a informed decision and not missing anything :)

mortfree
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Re: Which is better?

Post by mortfree » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:02 am

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:00 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 pm
mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.
I would suspect that many Bogleheads do not know ticker symbols. Many years ago when we traded individual stocks, I could easily recall well over a hundred (and more) ticker symbols. It was all worthless and for nothing. Once I learned the Boglehead approach to investing, ticker symbols became a thing of the past!

Agreed. Far too many ticker symbols to remember them all:
This Excel spreadsheet was updated in September 2017. It is broken down into eight sheets, one each for

stocks (106332 tickers)
ETFs (21196tickers)
futures (9294 tickers)
indices (80017 tickers)
mutual funds (24926 tickers)
currency pairs (4019 tickers)

That’s 245784 tickers symbols in total.
source: http://investexcel.net/all-yahoo-finance-stock-tickers/
245,784 is an awful lot of ticker symbols to have to memorize. I'll look them up instead, or merely suggest when people post tickers, to repost listing out the names of the funds themselves.
Yet another reason for the three fund portfolio.

Less ticker symbols to remember. I won’t list them here though.

:D

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Which is better?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:36 am

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.

I use VTI.

Doesn’t mean anything in regards to what the OP may consider better though.
I consider myself a Boglehead. "You get what you don't pay for" to me means watching the ERs carefully. I can do this without using Vanguard funds. I do happen to hold VTI at TDAmeritrade, so I know what it is. I don't know what VT is. I also could not for sure tell you the tickers of the Fidelity funds I own without looking at them. I do remember SCHB at Schwab because.....well.....it's really easy to remember since it's sort of the name of Charlie.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

Valuethinker
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Re: Which is better?

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:49 am

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.

I use VTI.

Doesn’t mean anything in regards to what the OP may consider better though.
Would this be in your RRSP or your TFSA?

Or your ISA or your SIPP?

Is it approved by the FCA? Is it UCITS VI compliant? Is the structure a SICAV or just an OEICS?

What does the PRA think? Has the MPC opined on it or is it FPC? Is there anything from the BIS? Did you pull the 10k from Edgar? Did they file under 412?

In short, my friend, the world does not end at the water's edge. There are countries outside the USA and they all have their financial jargon.

Oh yes and we have our own fund tickers ;-) too.

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GoldStar
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Re: Which is better?

Post by GoldStar » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:09 am

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.

I use VTI.

Doesn’t mean anything in regards to what the OP may consider better though.
Yes they are.
Many here have been using mutual funds all their lives so might recognize VTSAX but not VTI.
Or they might be in Fidelity or Schwab and not Vanguard so might only be familiar with their index symbols.

veronix
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Re: Which is better?

Post by veronix » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:28 am

VTI or VT - which is more risky?

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Which is better?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:46 am

veronix wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:28 am
VTI or VT - which is more risky?
Vanguard lists both as a "4" on the risk potential (1 to 5), (see for yourself):
https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/VT
https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/vti

Some might say VT (total world Stok ETF) is more risky because it has currency risk which VTI (Total U.S. stock market ETF) does not. But you're also taking home country bias (a type of risk, look up Japan) if you put all your assets in just one country (even the U.S.A.).

In addition, there's been research that has shown that a portfolio that includes international stocks (anywhere from 20%-40%) actually reduced the volatility of portfolios, so it really depends on how you define risk now doesn't it?

source: (see page 5)
https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGGEB.pdf
"Invest we must." -- Jack Bogle | “The purpose of investing is not to simply optimise returns and make yourself rich. The purpose is not to die poor.” -- William Bernstein

delamer
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Re: Which is better?

Post by delamer » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:53 am

If you already have money in 529 accounts for your kids, then you should decide between VT and VTI in the context of the 529 investments.

ResearchMed
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Re: Which is better?

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:54 am

ACJC wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm
VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊
Could you please edit title to put in the two fund symbols/names?

Otherwise, you may have a lot of people not even opening your thread, not knowing if it would be comparing two types of cars, BBQ grills, shampoo, "boxers or briefs", or whatever...

RM
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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:48 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:54 am
ACJC wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:51 pm
VTI or VT for our boys UTMA accounts? We do not have 3000.00 for the mutual funds :(. Thank you 😊
Could you please edit title to put in the two fund symbols/names?

Otherwise, you may have a lot of people not even opening your thread, not knowing if it would be comparing two types of cars, BBQ grills, shampoo, "boxers or briefs", or whatever...

RM
I fixed the thread title.

ACJC - If you want to change the thread title further, just edit the Subject: line in Post #1.
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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by whodidntante » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:55 pm

Consider improving your question. You're going to get people telling you which fund they prefer.

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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:14 pm

^^^ Translation: Please post your portfolio info in this thread using the Asking Portfolio Questions format. It will make you think about the "big picture" while giving us the information we need to point you in the right direction.

I see that you have already asked several questions, but you'll get much better advice if you could keep all of your information in one spot. If you have any questions about your portfolio, ask them here.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

Dominic
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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by Dominic » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Either is great. Diversified, cheap, and relatively tax efficient.

Total World is more diversified, but since it's ~50% non-US, it is exposed to exchange rate risk. Additionally, the allocation to the US market in Total World can change over time.

My personal preference is to buy some of Total US Stock Market and some of Total International Stock Market (VXUS). Pick anywhere between 25-50% international and the rest in US. If you want to have exactly one fund in your portfolio, then Total World is probably the better choice.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Which is better?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:59 pm

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm
Is someone really a BH if they don’t know these two symbols by now?

Should be a pre-requisite.
...
Yes.

The Bogleheads investment philosophy makes no mention of memorizing ticker symbols, one way or the other.

PJW

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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by lostdog » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:17 am

Vanguard Total World. It's the only rational choice. Any other allocation outside of world market cap is not rational.
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MichCPA
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Re: Which is better? [Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTI) or Total World (VT)?]

Post by MichCPA » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:33 am

I really don't understand why VTI is domestic and VT includes international. Seems like it should be the opposite. I don't think there is a major difference in VT vs VTI + VXUS.

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