Where to put international?

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blueman457
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Where to put international?

Post by blueman457 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:37 pm

Q: I'm constantly have this debate in my head: where should I put international index fund?

I have access to the following accounts. I have only now just started a taxable account.

401(a): Total stock market;
403(b): TIAA traditional/Total Bond
Roth: Total Stock Market/International/ REIT

It seems historically that TSM has had better returns than international, and therefore I'm more inclined to keep TSM in my Roth IRA account, and use international in my taxable account. Is that appropriate?

Thanks,

Blue Man

Edited for clarity.

jalbert
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by jalbert » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:50 pm

If you knew US stocks would outperform non-US stocks moving forward you would not hold non-US stocks at all, so I don’t think that is the right motivation.

Holding non-US stocks in a taxable account preserves the foreign tax credit, a credit for taxes paid to another country. This is an argument for holding non-US stocks in a taxable account.

On the other hand, non-US stocks have a larger dividend yield and the dividends are not 100% qualified. Non-US stocks have a larger tax drag from dividends than US stocks.

When in retirement the dividend income becomes realized retirement income so the additional tax drag is lessened and non-US in taxable space wins. While in accumulation mode it depends on federal tax bracket and state income taxes. In a high income tax state that taxes all dividends as regular income, the tax drag on non-US equity dividends may be more than the foreign tax credit benefit. In the absence of an analysis justifying otherwise, just put non-US equities in taxable space.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

drk
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by drk » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:49 pm

For help on the tax-drag issues jalbert noted, take a look at triceratop's post on relative tax-efficiency. This is very much a YMMV situation. In my case, it's more tax-efficient to hold international stocks in tax-advantaged accounts, so I do that.

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BeBH65
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by BeBH65 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 am

We have a wiki article on Tax-efficient_fund_placement with a step by step apprach to Assigning_asset_classes_to_different_accounts.
Maybe that can be of use to you.
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

JustinR
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by JustinR » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:31 am

Place international in your tax-advantaged accounts.

Chip
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by Chip » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:49 am

JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:31 am
Place international in your tax-advantaged accounts.
Would you recommend that for me as well? Even though I am being PAID by the IRS (tax credit more than fund ERs plus fund taxes) to hold international in my taxable account?

As others have noted, it's not one size fits all.

JustinR
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by JustinR » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:01 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:49 am
JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:31 am
Place international in your tax-advantaged accounts.
Would you recommend that for me as well? Even though I am being PAID by the IRS (tax credit more than fund ERs plus fund taxes) to hold international in my taxable account?

As others have noted, it's not one size fits all.
I suppose if you live in a state that has no income tax and your income is so low that you don't pay federal income taxes either, international is more tax efficient than US.

For most people, international is less tax efficient than US. OP would need to plug in his own numbers into the spreadsheet to be sure.

Chip
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by Chip » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:16 am

JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:01 am
I suppose if you live in a state that has no income tax and your income is so low that you don't pay federal income taxes either, international is more tax efficient than US.

For most people, international is less tax efficient than US. OP would need to plug in his own numbers into the spreadsheet to be sure.
I agree that the spreadsheet is the right tool to use. I don't agree with your "most people" generalization as I don't have the data.

I pay federal taxes each year (the tax credit can't be claimed if you owe no taxes) and I live in a state that has mid-level income taxes. The foreign tax credit is worth several hundred $ a year to me.

JustinR
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by JustinR » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:20 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:16 am
JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:01 am
I suppose if you live in a state that has no income tax and your income is so low that you don't pay federal income taxes either, international is more tax efficient than US.

For most people, international is less tax efficient than US. OP would need to plug in his own numbers into the spreadsheet to be sure.
I agree that the spreadsheet is the right tool to use. I don't agree with your "most people" generalization as I don't have the data.

I pay federal taxes each year (the tax credit can't be claimed if you owe no taxes) and I live in a state that has mid-level income taxes. The foreign tax credit is worth several hundred $ a year to me.
What are your tax rates in the upper left for the spreadsheet? Curious at what values total international becomes more efficient than total US.

Chip
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by Chip » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:39 am

I don't use total international. I've put developed large cap blend and value in taxable, EM and small cap in Roths. So my tax rates aren't relevant.

But it's easy enough to use the spreadsheet and figure out the numbers for VTIAX/VXUS. I note that they are very close to VTI for the 12%/6% in triceratop's example. And I note that IXUS is significantly more tax efficient (which is weird).

Error in my earlier post: Tax credit does not completely compensate for fund ERs. But it's very close for LC blend.

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:15 am

I'm looking at the spreadsheet

viewtopic.php?t=242137

Can somebody help me understand?

- Why are QDI tax rate is 23.8%?
- The assumption seems to be tax-sheltered account, right? I don't see tax credit any place

I thought that the point of the OP is relative tax-efficiency. If you want to invest X in international and Y in US, and fixed amount of taxable and non-taxable, where would you put X (assume Y goes into whatever is leftover).

I thought X would have to go in non-taxable just because of a tax credit that would be lost otherwise. OR am I missing something else?

blueman457
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by blueman457 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:29 am

OP here.

I know you can’t predict the future, but for overall increased net worth, it is worth sacrificing ROTH space for international over TSM?

I am in a high tax bracket with state income tax.

Thanks.

Blue man

MikeG62
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by MikeG62 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:48 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:49 am
JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:31 am
Place international in your tax-advantaged accounts.
Would you recommend that for me as well? Even though I am being PAID by the IRS (tax credit more than fund ERs plus fund taxes) to hold international in my taxable account?

As others have noted, it's not one size fits all.
According to the wiki...

"Step 3: Placing international stock funds in the taxable account:

It is sometimes possible to get tax credit for foreign taxes paid from international stock funds, but this opportunity is lost in tax-advantaged accounts. If all else is equal, the existence of the credit may make it advantageous to prioritize these funds in the taxable account. Whether or not the foreign tax credit is sufficient depends on such factors as the the percentage of the fund's foreign source income component, the foreign tax rate, the percentage of the foreign dividends that are qualified, and the the US marginal tax bracket of the fundholder."
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience

JustinR
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by JustinR » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:20 pm

international001 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:15 am
I'm looking at the spreadsheet

viewtopic.php?t=242137

Can somebody help me understand?

- Why are QDI tax rate is 23.8%?
- The assumption seems to be tax-sheltered account, right? I don't see tax credit any place

I thought that the point of the OP is relative tax-efficiency. If you want to invest X in international and Y in US, and fixed amount of taxable and non-taxable, where would you put X (assume Y goes into whatever is leftover).

I thought X would have to go in non-taxable just because of a tax credit that would be lost otherwise. OR am I missing something else?
QDI rate for most people should be 15% I think.

After plugging in your tax rates on the top left, the spreadsheet tells you how tax efficient each fund is for you. The lower the better.

The spreadsheet helps you determine which fund to put in taxable. Place your least tax efficient (higher ratio) funds in tax-advantaged. So if bonds has the highest ratio, you should fill up your tax-advantaged space with bonds first, then the next highest ratio fund, and so on.

The spreadsheet takes into account the foreign tax credit, which you only get in taxable. So, for VXUS if the efficiency number is higher than VTI (for example) that means that even with the foreign tax credit, VXUS is still less tax efficient than VTI. So in this case you should put VXUS in tax-advantaged even if you'll lose the foreign tax credit.

Does that help?
international001 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:15 am
I thought X would have to go in non-taxable just because of a tax credit that would be lost otherwise. OR am I missing something else?
You have it backwards. You only get the foreign tax credit in taxable. Sometimes this credit can offset the tax inefficiency of the fund. Again, the spreadsheet already takes this into account so if the number is higher it's better to lose the tax credit and have it in tax-advantaged.

jalbert
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by jalbert » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:14 pm

It seems historically that TSM has had better returns than international, and therefore I'm more inclined to keep TSM in my Roth IRA account, and use international in my taxable account. Is that appropriate?
It is a very appropriate result arrived at by highly flawed reasoning. The recent outperformance of US could just as easily be why int'l outperforms in the next 10 years as opposed to why US equities will win.

I think holding IXUS in a taxable account will be a good way to get int'l equity exposure in a tax efficient manner. You can use IXUS and (80% VEA / 20% VWO) as tax loss harvesting pairs if you decide to harvest losses.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

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zonto
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by zonto » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:59 pm

Thank you all for the helpful responses to this thread. Not the OP, but found the discussion enlightening and made a couple tweaks to my portfolio today based on the relative tax efficiency data shared.
“Diversification is about accepting good enough while missing out on great but avoiding terrible.” - Ben Carlson

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triceratop
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by triceratop » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:07 pm

Chip wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:39 am
I don't use total international. I've put developed large cap blend and value in taxable, EM and small cap in Roths. So my tax rates aren't relevant.

But it's easy enough to use the spreadsheet and figure out the numbers for VTIAX/VXUS. I note that they are very close to VTI for the 12%/6% in triceratop's example. And I note that IXUS is significantly more tax efficient (which is weird).

Error in my earlier post: Tax credit does not completely compensate for fund ERs. But it's very close for LC blend.
Hardly just an example -- that is my current tax bracket. :) So, there are at least a few people out there paying state tax and seeing IXUS as more tax efficient, which is something that was considered to be a corner case by another poster in this topic!
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

jalbert
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by jalbert » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:39 pm

The tax efficiency of IXUS relative to VTIAX/VXUS likely has narrowed some from the inclusion of China H-chips and N-chips (100% QDI) in the FTSE index. If holding int’l equity index funds in tax-qualified accounts you might as well hold a mix of 80% VEA and 20% VWO for the lower ER.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

megabad
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by megabad » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:06 pm

Sort of building off prior posts but I prefer to specifically have mostly what some refer to as "Developed" international in my taxable. I find that the qualified dividend yield is relatively higher than my US equity holdings in most years and I can claim FITC. The chinese/korean/russian equities throw off less in QDI and are less advantageous to me in taxable after filling out form 1116 for the FITC.

inbox788
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by inbox788 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:10 pm

I'm confused by this too. I went ahead and put some in Roth because that's where I had just opened an account that wasn't automatically saved (like 401k that's directly and invisibly taken out without any intervention). I keep having second thoughts about putting it in the 401k and juggling out something vs taxable, but since it hasn't been giving me any trouble, I just leave it in the Roth. I don't know if I should be worrying about investment and taxes now or how to figure out the effects of switching things around now or later taking into account retirement assumptions, which are variable. It's all so confusing, so I guess I'm distributing it around and calling it tax diversification.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... _placement

jalbert
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by jalbert » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:07 pm

jalbert wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:39 pm
The tax efficiency of IXUS relative to VTIAX/VXUS likely has narrowed some from the inclusion of China H-chips and N-chips (100% QDI) in the FTSE index. If holding int’l equity index funds in tax-qualified accounts you might as well hold a mix of 80% VEA and 20% VWO for the lower ER.
The bold phrase was not correct. China A-shares are generally 100% QDI but that is not true for H-chips and N-chips.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:32 pm

JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:20 pm

The spreadsheet takes into account the foreign tax credit, which you only get in taxable. So, for VXUS if the efficiency number is higher than VTI (for example) that means that even with the foreign tax credit, VXUS is still less tax efficient than VTI. So in this case you should put VXUS in tax-advantaged even if you'll lose the foreign tax credit.


You have it backwards. You only get the foreign tax credit in taxable. Sometimes this credit can offset the tax inefficiency of the fund. Again, the spreadsheet already takes this into account so if the number is higher it's better to lose the tax credit and have it in tax-advantaged.
Thanks for the clarifications, I understand now.
Yes, a typo, I know only get the credit tax in taxable


If everything had the same return, I'd agree with your reasoning, but one may consider better to put stock in tax-advantage (vs bonds) because they had better return and, despite being more tax efficient, you'll end up better at the end.

Same with US stocks that tend to perform better, no?

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:45 pm

BTW

It would seem https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... e_accounts
is wrong about international in practical terms, no? In the sense that even considering tax credit, the are just less tax efficient.

danaht
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by danaht » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:00 pm

I like to put the international funds that produce mostly unqualified dividends in my tax advantaged accounts (emerging markets ie VWO, SCHE)
For the international funds that produce mostly qualified dividends (ie developed international VEA, or SCHF)- I like to place in a taxable account.

note: some people recommend placing all international funds in tax advantaged accounts - but I disagree with this advice. A tax advantaged account will not be able to capture the foreign dividend tax credits for the foreign taxes paid. So, at least hold the ones producing qualified dividends (VEA, or SCHF) in a taxable account to capture tax credits.

3funder
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by 3funder » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:07 pm

Honestly, VTSMX and VGTSX are both low-cost equity index funds with extremely low turnover. I wouldn't worry about the overall tax efficiency of either.

JustinR
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by JustinR » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:22 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:32 pm
JustinR wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:20 pm

The spreadsheet takes into account the foreign tax credit, which you only get in taxable. So, for VXUS if the efficiency number is higher than VTI (for example) that means that even with the foreign tax credit, VXUS is still less tax efficient than VTI. So in this case you should put VXUS in tax-advantaged even if you'll lose the foreign tax credit.


You have it backwards. You only get the foreign tax credit in taxable. Sometimes this credit can offset the tax inefficiency of the fund. Again, the spreadsheet already takes this into account so if the number is higher it's better to lose the tax credit and have it in tax-advantaged.
Thanks for the clarifications, I understand now.
Yes, a typo, I know only get the credit tax in taxable


If everything had the same return, I'd agree with your reasoning, but one may consider better to put stock in tax-advantage (vs bonds) because they had better return and, despite being more tax efficient, you'll end up better at the end.

Same with US stocks that tend to perform better, no?
Maybe. I get that argument but was never sure on which side was right.

However, Total International (VXUS) did better than Total US (VTI) last year, so..

terran
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by terran » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:52 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:45 pm
BTW

It would seem https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... e_accounts
is wrong about international in practical terms, no? In the sense that even considering tax credit, the are just less tax efficient.
I was noticing this too. Is the reason for the discrepancy that triceratop's data uses more like a 3% dividend yield for international while the wiki seems to be based on a 1.85% yield? Have dividend yields just gone up a lot in recent years for international?

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:03 pm

JustinR wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:22 am
Maybe. I get that argument but was never sure on which side was right.

However, Total International (VXUS) did better than Total US (VTI) last year, so..
I'm talking about a long term trend, I don't care about last year. Not sure if we can count on the same trend for the future (like small cap beating large cap).

The spreadsheet seems to focus on only last year. Am I wrong?
I would like to see something more long term, is it available?

Where can we get all this good info the spreadsheet has (QDI ratio, ...) ?

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triceratop
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by triceratop » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

terran wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:52 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:45 pm
BTW

It would seem https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... e_accounts
is wrong about international in practical terms, no? In the sense that even considering tax credit, the are just less tax efficient.
I was noticing this too. Is the reason for the discrepancy that triceratop's data uses more like a 3% dividend yield for international while the wiki seems to be based on a 1.85% yield? Have dividend yields just gone up a lot in recent years for international?
I don't "use more like a 3% dividend yield" -- I use the realized dividend yield for that year.
I'm talking about a long term trend, I don't care about last year. Not sure if we can count on the same trend for the future (like small cap beating large cap).

The spreadsheet seems to focus on only last year. Am I wrong?
I would like to see something more long term, is it available?

Where can we get all this good info the spreadsheet has (QDI ratio, ...) ?
You can find 2015,2016 links in the OP to the 2017 thread.

You can get this data from the fund provider (use Google), as I do.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

jalbert
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by jalbert » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:34 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:45 pm
BTW

It would seem https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... e_accounts
is wrong about international in practical terms, no? In the sense that even considering tax credit, the are just less tax efficient.
It depends on your state and federal tax brackets.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 am

triceratop wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Where can we get all this good info the spreadsheet has (QDI ratio, ...) ?
You can find 2015,2016 links in the OP to the 2017 thread.

You can get this data from the fund provider (use Google), as I do.
[/quote]

Sorry.. I guess I cannot find it.
Where do you get QDI for VTI, for instance (URL)? I have to do a google and it brings me to a Vanguard page

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:18 am

jalbert wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:34 am

It depends on your state and federal tax brackets.
As much as I change it on the spreadsheet, International shows a higher % of tax efficiency

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zonto
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by zonto » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:44 am

Higher is bad.
“Diversification is about accepting good enough while missing out on great but avoiding terrible.” - Ben Carlson

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triceratop
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by triceratop » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:49 am

international001 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 am
triceratop wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Where can we get all this good info the spreadsheet has (QDI ratio, ...) ?
You can find 2015,2016 links in the OP to the 2017 thread.

You can get this data from the fund provider (use Google), as I do.
Sorry.. I guess I cannot find it.
Where do you get QDI for VTI, for instance (URL)? I have to do a google and it brings me to a Vanguard page
here: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... ncome-2017
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:13 am

zonto wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:44 am
Higher is bad.
Exactly.. that why I'm saying it makes sense to put them on tax-shelter. State taxes do not seem to make a difference

international001
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Re: Where to put international?

Post by international001 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:14 am

triceratop wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:49 am
international001 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 am
triceratop wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Where can we get all this good info the spreadsheet has (QDI ratio, ...) ?
You can find 2015,2016 links in the OP to the 2017 thread.

You can get this data from the fund provider (use Google), as I do.
Sorry.. I guess I cannot find it.
Where do you get QDI for VTI, for instance (URL)? I have to do a google and it brings me to a Vanguard page
here: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... ncome-2017

I found this. But I'd like to see not only QDI but all the parameters used in the spreadsheet. Also, if possible in a all-funds web like morningstar so I can compare to non-Vanguard funds/ETFs

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