Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

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ndnboy
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Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:43 pm

Recent purchase of QQQ like everything else has taken a hit this past week. Is it a good time to TLH and can I pick up positions in VTI, IVV, VOO etc without any wash issues?

New to the TLH and wanted to check, and stay fully invested Thx.

wolf359
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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by wolf359 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:24 pm

Yes, none of those other ETFs are substantially similar to QQQ (which is the IRS test.) They track other indexes, which are quite different. Therefore, you can exchange it with the others without running afoul of wash sale rules.

Now, there IS a followup question about WHY you are buying QQQ. (If you're asking this question, you may not know about the makeup of QQQ versus the other ETFs you mentioned. That question implies lack of knowledge, which is a red flag.)

I, too, own QQQ. However, I own it as a bet on large momentum-driven growth stocks. It's my version of betting on the FANG stocks, which make up about 50% of the market capitalization of that ETF. (In plain English, it means that half of the index's value is made up of a handful of individual stocks.) QQQ should by no means be considered broadly diversified. It is a bet on the continued bull market. The index is too concentrated on a few industries for safety. I know that this holding is very risky. I therefore limit it to a set amount of my portfolio. It's part of my "play money," not my primary investments.

Are you aware of that risk, and treating QQQ with appropriate caution?

If you want to see the danger visually, just look at a chart of QQQ and go back to the tech crash, around 2000. It took 2 years for QQQ to drop from its high to its low, and it took 14 years for QQQ to break even with its previous high. If tech cracks, QQQ will drop very quickly. Most of its value is concentrated in Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Microsoft and Google.

ndnboy
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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:43 pm

Thx for TLH info.

I've held a small, maybe 2% post on in QQQ for a few years now. I recently sold International VXUS to take the TLH. Placed that money in QQQ for a total of 5-7% of AA. Thought was that I may get back into international once 30 days was up, but now that QQQ has taken a good hit I figured I can take advantage of no cost trades and TLH that as well..... thoughts....

Thx

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by wolf359 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:38 pm

ndnboy wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:43 pm
Thx for TLH info.

I've held a small, maybe 2% post on in QQQ for a few years now. I recently sold International VXUS to take the TLH. Placed that money in QQQ for a total of 5-7% of AA. Thought was that I may get back into international once 30 days was up, but now that QQQ has taken a good hit I figured I can take advantage of no cost trades and TLH that as well..... thoughts....

Thx
If I understand you correctly, you sold VXUS a month ago and put it into QQQ. Now that QQQ has a loss, you're selling it for another loss and putting it back into VXUS. Is QQQ actually showing a loss? It's actually still higher than 30 days ago.

When you sell at a loss, you usually want to use a trading pair that will provide exposure similar to what you sold. That way you can still benefit if the general sector goes up. For example, a good TLH partner for VXUS is VEU (Vanguard FTSE All-World Ex-US). It is a similar fund that follows a different index, but will still behave similarly to VXUS. If you buy VEU, you don't actually have to ever switch back. If you do, both VXUS and VEU will both behave like foreign stock funds, and will be at a similar level.

By using QQQ as a trading pair for VXUS, you're changing a Foreign Large Blend Fund for a US Large Growth Fund. Nothing wrong with that, but it is possible that one will go up when the other one goes down. Let's say VXUS drops in price, so you exchange it for QQQ. QQQ then drops in price while VXUS goes up. If you then exchange into VXUS, you're just taking loss after loss and end up worse than you started.

In your current case, VXUS dropped in price, and you exchanged it for QQQ. QQQ then went up, and dropped only in the last day or so (but is still higher than 30 days ago.) Meanwhile, VXUS dropped even further, and is well below your original exit price. That means that if you sell QQQ and buy VXUS, you'll have more shares than when you started. You got lucky, but it doesn't always work out that way. There's no way to predict which category of stocks will perform better, especially over a short 30 day timeframe.

You may want to read up on the Boglehead Wiki about Tax Loss Harvesting for more information. The Wiki actually suggests TLH pairs to use for common index funds.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:56 pm

Thx again for the explanation. Makes sense to stay in similar sector to maintain AA. I recently decided to purchase our only International exposure at just 5% so it's new and not really tied to it yet. Will look at VEU as option tomorrow as well.

Thx again, just figured I might as well take the significant loss for the tax help at end of year. I should have enough to cover 2 years worth with carry over.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by drk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm

VXUS to QQQ to VTI/IVV/VOO? The trades you're describing are not tax-loss harvesting. It sounds like you need to brush up on asset allocation before even thinking about that.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:20 am

drk wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm
VXUS to QQQ to VTI/IVV/VOO? The trades you're describing are not tax-loss harvesting. It sounds like you need to brush up on asset allocation before even thinking about that.
I understand TLH as taking a loss on an investment that goes down from your initial purchase price, for a total of $3K per year with the rest rolling over to future tax years, is that incorrect?

I realize that the moves Ive made/making dont follow a similar AA but doesnt it still cont as TLH, wash rule was what I didnt understand, thought I had to change asset class vs picking a similar one.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by goingup » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:52 am

ndnboy wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:20 am
drk wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm
VXUS to QQQ to VTI/IVV/VOO? The trades you're describing are not tax-loss harvesting. It sounds like you need to brush up on asset allocation before even thinking about that.
I understand TLH as taking a loss on an investment that goes down from your initial purchase price, for a total of $3K per year with the rest rolling over to future tax years, is that incorrect?

I realize that the moves Ive made/making dont follow a similar AA but doesnt it still cont as TLH, wash rule was what I didnt understand, thought I had to change asset class vs picking a similar one.
Sure, what you did is TLHing. Maybe the slickest way to do it is to swap "similar but not identical" funds. That way you stay fully invested in an asset class, but get to share your loss with the government. The move that I think is not too clever is to harvest a loss and go to cash and stay there. That's just selling low. So harvest a loss but stay invested. Harvest equity losses and swap into the same or equally depressed asset class. Harvest bond losses and stay in the same or equally depressed asset class.

Now my soapbox. I think TLH is just a footnote to investing--a tax tool. I'd spend much more energy accumulating shares and purchasing funds than I would harvesting losses. TLH gives a person a reason to tinker with their portfolio and that may not be a good thing. I harvest losses because they are valuable but I'd rather leave things alone. :|

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:34 am

Thx for the confirmation, def want the help with taxes, Its been awhile since I could take a tax lost to help offset CG coming later in year.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:09 pm

wolf359 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:38 pm
When you sell at a loss, you usually want to use a trading pair that will provide exposure similar to what you sold. That way you can still benefit if the general sector goes up. For example, a good TLH partner for VXUS is VEU (Vanguard FTSE All-World Ex-US). It is a similar fund that follows a different index, but will still behave similarly to VXUS. If you buy VEU, you don't actually have to ever switch back. If you do, both VXUS and VEU will both behave like foreign stock funds, and will be at a similar level.
FWIW, I just sold out of VXUS and bought VEU (mutual fund equivalents), but on a day when they went up, so what I thought was a modest TLH shrunk to a smaller one. But the next few days they kept going down, so in about 30 days, if things don't improve, I should be able to switch back to VXUS and TLH VEU.

I came across a 70% IRS rule (I don't think it's official or significant) and an article that says VXUS and VEU are 76% similar/same, so it may break this rule, but I don't think anyone has come near testing this. What you want is the most similar funds that are expected to act in the same way, but not substantially similar to fall into trouble, but some folks have tried arguing that different SP500 funds are NOT substantially similar, though I haven't seen any particular test of that theory.

Anyway, QQQ is similar enough to VTI and others and IMO father away from substantially similar than VTI vs VOO that it's not going to land you in any trouble with the authorities, but does it achieve your aims? And if you're right about OP going from VXUS -> VTI (via QQQ), it's a little confusing what those aims are.

OP, what is your AA and desired AA? Please list funds and percentages.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:19 pm

My AA is about 70/30, The VXUS was our only (and NEW) International in AA at 5%. We just started to dip into Int and I felt I could drop it for the TLH. No real plan to HAVE TO keep Inter in AA moving forward but open to requiring after the 30 day window. The QQQ was just because I thought it to be a good aggressive attempt for a quick bounce and then reallocating or leaving alone. Since that also took a dip from a few days ago I thought I would also TLH and move into VTI, VOO or the suggested VEU to get the Inter back in the mix.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:10 pm

wolf359 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:24 pm
Yes, none of those other ETFs are substantially similar to QQQ (which is the IRS test.)
No. It's "substantially identical". That's a much higher bar.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:10 pm
wolf359 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:24 pm
Yes, none of those other ETFs are substantially similar to QQQ (which is the IRS test.)
No. It's "substantially identical". That's a much higher bar.
Yes, quite a high bar that's not been tested AFAIK. Here's the discussion on the 70% rule, which if they even begin to utilize it, will open up lots of cans of worms they don't want to deal with.

http://www.mymoneyblog.com/etf-tax-loss ... tical.html

One of the first questions they will have to answer is whether equal weight SP500 is identical to market cap weight. And then they'll have to get into the weeds of fees, stock lending, how stocks are added and deleted from the index funds, whether they're truly passive, and when comparing VTI to VOO, whether the thousands of small caps that make up a tiny market cap weight make a "substantial" difference. Drawing lines will be all but impossible. But I wouldn't want to get so close as to be part of the debate:
Consider two ETFs: the S&P 500 SPDR (SPY) and the iShares S&P 500 (IVV). Undeniably, these two ETFs are similar in the sense that they both provide exposure to the S&P 500 and both trade on the AMEX like a regular stock. Whether this is enough to make them "substantially identical securities," however, remains to be demonstrated. Remember that this statement is ripe for interpretation, but also misuse. Although these two ETFs allow investors to maintain broad exposure to the market through the same index, they are nevertheless issued by two different management companies: The IVV is issued by Barclays Global Investors (BGI), while the SPY is issued by PDR Services LLC. Hence, just as Pfizer is not Merck, the SPY is not the IVV. (Morever, their structures are different. The SPY is structured as a unit investment trust while the IVV is an open-end fund, notwithstanding that the SPY's expense ratio is 0.10% whereas that of the IVV is slightly lower at 0.09%. )

Whether the swap of these two products for tax purposes is permissible under the wash-sale rule is a subject that is still under debate.
http://www.etf.com/publications/journal ... nopaging=1

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:19 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm
Whether the swap of these two products for tax purposes is permissible under the wash-sale rule is a subject that is still under debate.
As far as I know, it's not under debate by anyone whose opinion matters. That would be the IRS, Congress, and the Tax Court.

Bloggers blog. That doesn't mean that they know anything.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by bradpevans » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:23 pm

goingup wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:52 am
ndnboy wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:20 am
drk wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm
VXUS to QQQ to VTI/IVV/VOO? The trades you're describing are not tax-loss harvesting. It sounds like you need to brush up on asset allocation before even thinking about that.
I understand TLH as taking a loss on an investment that goes down from your initial purchase price, for a total of $3K per year with the rest rolling over to future tax years, is that incorrect?

I realize that the moves Ive made/making dont follow a similar AA but doesnt it still cont as TLH, wash rule was what I didnt understand, thought I had to change asset class vs picking a similar one.
Sure, what you did is TLHing. Maybe the slickest way to do it is to swap "similar but not identical" funds. That way you stay fully invested in an asset class, but get to share your loss with the government. The move that I think is not too clever is to harvest a loss and go to cash and stay there. That's just selling low. So harvest a loss but stay invested. Harvest equity losses and swap into the same or equally depressed asset class. Harvest bond losses and stay in the same or equally depressed asset class.

Now my soapbox. I think TLH is just a footnote to investing--a tax tool. I'd spend much more energy accumulating shares and purchasing funds than I would harvesting losses. TLH gives a person a reason to tinker with their portfolio and that may not be a good thing. I harvest losses because they are valuable but I'd rather leave things alone. :|
I'm also in ^^^ this camp.

To be honest, I'm somewhat shocked at the number of threads (and $) around Tax Loss Harvest. I say that based on the generally conservative nature of this forum and the preference for funds that are certainly less volatile than individual stocks.

OTOH, about 90% of my invesments are 401 or Roth, so gains and losses don't come into play there.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by drk » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:42 pm

ndnboy wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:20 am
I understand TLH as taking a loss on an investment that goes down from your initial purchase price, for a total of $3K per year with the rest rolling over to future tax years, is that incorrect?

I realize that the moves Ive made/making dont follow a similar AA but doesnt it still cont as TLH, wash rule was what I didnt understand, thought I had to change asset class vs picking a similar one.
No, you're right. I was conflating the harvesting of the loss with using TLH as a strategy.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by ndnboy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:47 am

Thanks for all the replies, helps understand it a bit better, sort of : )

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:57 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:19 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm
Whether the swap of these two products for tax purposes is permissible under the wash-sale rule is a subject that is still under debate.
As far as I know, it's not under debate by anyone whose opinion matters. That would be the IRS, Congress, and the Tax Court.

Bloggers blog. That doesn't mean that they know anything.
Are you saying there's case law on the matter or there not even looking? I haven't paid that much attention, but haven't come across any such decisions. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone actually trying such similar funds much less advertising the matter and looking for trouble.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by JamesSFO » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:09 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:57 pm
Are you saying there's case law on the matter or there not even looking? I haven't paid that much attention, but haven't come across any such decisions. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone actually trying such similar funds much less advertising the matter and looking for trouble.
Almost every roboadvisor advertises these swaps (Schwab Intelligent Portfolios, Wealthfront, Betterment) they have matching pairs of nearly identical ETFs and encourage letting them TLH for you.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:21 pm

JamesSFO wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:09 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:57 pm
Are you saying there's case law on the matter or there not even looking? I haven't paid that much attention, but haven't come across any such decisions. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone actually trying such similar funds much less advertising the matter and looking for trouble.
Almost every roboadvisor advertises these swaps (Schwab Intelligent Portfolios, Wealthfront, Betterment) they have matching pairs of nearly identical ETFs and encourage letting them TLH for you.
Is there a list? Any of the roboadvisors doing IVV/SPY/VOO? If that passes the test, we're all home free. But it's good company to be doing what all these roboadvisor are doing, so if there is a crackdown, they're big fish to fry.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=252594&newpost=3992815

And there is one brave soul! I hope you're right!
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:13 pm
I have a lot in S&P 500 funds, mostly IVV with some in the 401(k). I had a little bit of VOO earlier, but did a TLH to IVV. I ain't fraid of no wash sales.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=252594&newpost=3992815#p3992815

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by JamesSFO » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:21 pm
Is there a list? Any of the roboadvisors doing IVV/SPY/VOO? If that passes the test, we're all home free. But it's good company to be doing what all these roboadvisor are doing, so if there is a crackdown, they're big fish to fry.
Schwab Intelligent Portfolios lists their pairs: https://intelligent.schwab.com/public/i ... ncing.html (towards the bottom of the page)


Wealthfront lists their pairs: https://research.wealthfront.com/whitep ... arvesting/ (1/3rd of way down)

Betterment list their pairs: https://www.betterment.com/resources/re ... ite-paper/ (about 50% down)

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:21 am

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:57 pm
Are you saying there's case law on the matter or there not even looking? I haven't paid that much attention, but haven't come across any such decisions. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone actually trying such similar funds much less advertising the matter and looking for trouble.
I don't understand the question. My point was that "debate" that doesn't involve one of the parties mentioned is irrelevant. As far as I know, none of them are debating.

As a note, I swapped a few shares of VOO for IVV (S&P 500 ETFs from different providers) to harvest a small loss. That was to demonstrate my belief that it is not a wash sale. Of course, that's just an opinion on my part.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:12 pm

JamesSFO wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:14 am
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:21 pm
Is there a list? Any of the roboadvisors doing IVV/SPY/VOO? If that passes the test, we're all home free. But it's good company to be doing what all these roboadvisor are doing, so if there is a crackdown, they're big fish to fry.
Schwab Intelligent Portfolios lists their pairs: https://intelligent.schwab.com/public/i ... ncing.html (towards the bottom of the page)


Wealthfront lists their pairs: https://research.wealthfront.com/whitep ... arvesting/ (1/3rd of way down)

Betterment list their pairs: https://www.betterment.com/resources/re ... ite-paper/ (about 50% down)
Thanks for the links. From what I saw, there are very few SP500 funds mentioned, and none that swapped one market cap weighed SP500 fund for another. I don't think these roboadvisors want to be the test case for the IRS.
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:21 am
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:57 pm
Are you saying there's case law on the matter or there not even looking? I haven't paid that much attention, but haven't come across any such decisions. Then again, I'm not aware of anyone actually trying such similar funds much less advertising the matter and looking for trouble.
I don't understand the question. My point was that "debate" that doesn't involve one of the parties mentioned is irrelevant. As far as I know, none of them are debating.

As a note, I swapped a few shares of VOO for IVV (S&P 500 ETFs from different providers) to harvest a small loss. That was to demonstrate my belief that it is not a wash sale. Of course, that's just an opinion on my part.
Sorry if the question wasn't clear, but it seems the answer is the latter, that they're not even looking for now. If the IRS or appropriate court has already made a decision on the matter, that would end debate, but AFAIK, there is no such decision. A brokerage or roboadvisor TLH VTSMX/VTSAX/VTI would really force the issue and VOO/IVV is just one step away. I'm sure it's one of those things they've looked at and struggled with to come up with an answer, but decided it's too complicated for them to get involved, not unlike the Backdoor Roth vs. step doctrine ( viewtopic.php?t=238910 ).

I hope you're right about VOO/IVV not being a wash sale, and if they came out and said it, it would be helpful and validate almost all the TLH pairs everyone is using. And even if they come down on the other side, it wouldn't invalidate many others, but leave uncertainty.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:47 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:12 pm
A brokerage or roboadvisor TLH VTSMX/VTSAX/VTI would really force the issue and VOO/IVV is just one step away.
I don't think there's any question of those being a wash, as they are the same fund. It's a patented system. That's why Vanguard can do tax-free conversions from one to the other.
I hope you're right about VOO/IVV not being a wash sale, and if they came out and said it, it would be helpful and validate almost all the TLH pairs everyone is using. And even if they come down on the other side, it wouldn't invalidate many others, but leave uncertainty.
Well, if it were declared a wash, I would not be very affected. I still have five figures of carryover losses from 2008 timeframe, so it would only adjust that carryover amount slightly.
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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by JamesSFO » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:07 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Thanks for the links. From what I saw, there are very few SP500 funds mentioned, and none that swapped one market cap weighed SP500 fund for another. I don't think these roboadvisors want to be the test case for the IRS.
:confused

There are many examples of Total Stock funds that are market cap weighted being swapped for each other. Is the distinction that you think SP500 is more special in some way? Few SP500 funds have all 500 components at any one time. Ditto for Total Stock.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by inbox788 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:56 pm

JamesSFO wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:07 pm
inbox788 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Thanks for the links. From what I saw, there are very few SP500 funds mentioned, and none that swapped one market cap weighed SP500 fund for another. I don't think these roboadvisors want to be the test case for the IRS.
:confused

There are many examples of Total Stock funds that are market cap weighted being swapped for each other. Is the distinction that you think SP500 is more special in some way? Few SP500 funds have all 500 components at any one time. Ditto for Total Stock.
Yes, I think SP500 funds are different; a step closer. It was my impression that they did contain 500 all components in a particular proportion that approximated the index. So while Total Stock funds may contain 3000 or 4000 stocks and might differ by 1000 in number, the issue is that they might overlap by 70 or 90% in value with lots of the same FANG or SP500 the same. The SP500 indicies with the same 500 stocks and both funds trying to approximate SP500 index, it's a lot closer to being identical, short of being the same fund, different class (investor/admiral). I wish there was some certainty either way with regard to IVV/VOO so we know where where the sides of the lines lie. For now, the line is a very wide zone, and we don't know if being on the line is in or out vs using the inside line vs the outside line.

Anyway, QQQ is so different that it's not even worth worrying about IMO.

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Re: Can I TLH QQQ and pick up VTI, IVV, VOO...

Post by JamesSFO » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:04 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:56 pm
It was my impression that they did contain 500 all components in a particular proportion that approximated the index. ...

Nope. Not to my knowledge or when I looked at them last for SPY vs. IVV. Very similar but not the same, and due to unit redemption/creation PLUS day to day trading and timing of following index changes, the ETFs necessarily perform differently. Ditto on security lending. Thus the reason they perform differently (not drastically, but differently).

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