Help for a beginner investor in Germany

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antipro
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Hello everyone,

I guess such questions are posted quite often, but I would nevertheless appreciate a lot if I could get some advice from you guys.

To my situation: I'm 32, single, no children, living in Germany and working as an engineer currently saving around 1k€/month. From those 1k€ I was using 200€ to buy stock index funds, but I stopped in order to first find out what I should be doing.

Throughout the years I saved 60 k€ and this year ended up falling for a trap of my bank. I fell for the talk of the bank teller and invested 40 k€ this year in stock funds, some real state bonds and other government bonds. This happened before reading the Bogleheads Guide to Investing so I just realised I made a mistake since the costs for maintaining the portfolio aren't low (they actually deducted most of it when I bought all the shares).

I want to start using the products from Vanguard in Germany, but I wonder if I should just get all my capital back from the bank or wait a couple of years. I would just consider getting around 33% bonds and 66% stocks from Vanguard, but I'm not yet sure which ones I should choose. I don't have any plans of buying real estate currently, but that might change. So the main objective I would want to reach with my investment would be to save for retirement and maybe a part for a down payment in a house.

So my questions would be:

1) Should I move all my capital right away or wait to get at least the cost back?
2) Should I use all the 1k€ to buy funds from Vanguard?
3) How could be a good composition of my portfolio?

Thank you very much in advance for any advice/reading material I should consider.

All the best,
E
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Valuethinker »

antipro wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:27 am Hello everyone,

I guess such questions are posted quite often, but I would nevertheless appreciate a lot if I could get some advice from you guys.

To my situation: I'm 32, single, no children, living in Germany and working as an engineer currently saving around 1k€/month. From those 1k€ I was using 200€ to buy stock index funds, but I stopped in order to first find out what I should be doing.

Throughout the years I saved 60 k€ and this year ended up falling for a trap of my bank. I fell for the talk of the bank teller and invested 40 k€ this year in stock funds, some real state bonds and other government bonds. This happened before reading the Bogleheads Guide to Investing so I just realised I made a mistake since the costs for maintaining the portfolio aren't low (they actually deducted most of it when I bought all the shares).

I want to start using the products from Vanguard in Germany, but I wonder if I should just get all my capital back from the bank or wait a couple of years. I would just consider getting around 33% bonds and 66% stocks from Vanguard, but I'm not yet sure which ones I should choose. I don't have any plans of buying real estate currently, but that might change. So the main objective I would want to reach with my investment would be to save for retirement and maybe a part for a down payment in a house.

So my questions would be:

1) Should I move all my capital right away or wait to get at least the cost back?
2) Should I use all the 1k€ to buy funds from Vanguard?
3) How could be a good composition of my portfolio?

Thank you very much in advance for any advice/reading material I should consider.

All the best,
E
https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/what ... f-products

I believe that, via a discount online broker, you can access any ETF listed on a European exchange? All funds have to be UCITS VI compliant in the EU, they are usually domiciled in Ireland or Luxembourg, and listed on the main European exchanges.

Main issue is how German tax works. Some countries tax dividends and capital gains from a fund, even if not distributed to fund holders. Then, you want Distribution units. Otherwise, you want Accumulation units (to save additional dealing costs for reinvesting distributions to fund holders) -- only pay tax when you sell them. Germany may also have tax free investing accounts (called ISAs in the UK)?

66% Equities

https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/inve ... _fund_link

VWRL is the fund you want for your equities. Except that fund is in GBP and you want one in EUR. Not sure if VG runs. The currency of reporting won't matter in terms of performance (the same investments with no currency hedging). BUT you would incur Foreign Exchange charges every time you buy and sell.

I had a quick look at Vanguard Europe and ishares Europe and could not see a global equity ETF denominated (reporting in) EUR. It gets to be significantly more pain (but not impossible) if you have to do it via individual region ETFs. Roughly the proportions for that would be as in the fund above ie
North America 55%
Europe 20%
Pacific 15% (Japan is about 9% of that)
Emerging Markets 10%

so you'd need 4 or 5 funds.

(you might also be in the situation where you have a Developed World equity fund, and an Emerging Markets fund. As long as the ratio is roughly 85/15 (definitions of EM differ between index providers) that is OK).

You need to minimize dealing costs on this, which occur when you make new investments and when you rebalance so:

- accumulate for a number of months until you have enough to make a sensible investment
- rebalance only occasionally, it won't kill you to be way out of those percentages for 12 months or more as long as you are roughly 66% in equities in total

34% bonds

https://www.ishares.com/uk/institutiona ... (acc)-fund

would do it. However it does give you credit risk (and thus more volatility) in your bonds.

https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/inve ... _fund_link

would in theory be preferable because:

- no currency risk in bonds (generally we hold here you don't get paid for taking on currency volatility-- it's adding risk without higher returns. So we prefer bond funds hedged into our home currency. We accept currency risk in stocks because stocks are highly volatile in any case and "in the long run" we expect that movements in exchange rates are compensated for by movements in stocks, the other way).

- less credit risk than with bonds issued by the private sector. The concern here is that credit risk correlates with equity risk. Thus for example during the Finance Crisis corporate bonds fell alongside stocks, whereas the highest quality govt bonds (UK, USA etc.) rose in price at the same time, thus providing superior diversification just when you really need it.

There is one practical complication, and it's a big one. Italy is the largest govt bond market in the Eurozone, and is not credit risk free. There is a "Black Swan" that has Italy restructuring its debt and exiting the Euro-- a kind of super Greece. And if it did, or was in serious danger of so doing, so too would Spain, Portugal. That's over half of all govt bonds in Europe. This "event risk" is very real, and the yields on Italian govt bonds vs. the risk free Eurozone bonds (German) tell you that the market assigns some probability to it (roughly between 1.5% and 2% per annum chance at the moment - ie the difference in yield-to-maturity between the Italian 10 year govt bond and the 10 year German bund). It's like your seatbelt or your air bag. 999/ 1000 times you drive, you will never need this. But if you do have that accident, they will save your life- maybe 1/10,000 or 1/100,000 times you drive? the Italian debt default is that car crash.

The realistic alternatives are:

- a global govt bond fund, Investment Grade (above BBB- on the S&P credit rating scale), hedged into Euros -diversifies your credit risk, Italy is then only c. 8% of that index. it won't be pretty if Italy gets into trouble, but it won't be the end of the world (unless you need the money in the next less than 5 years, say).

Remember, in 1992 both Spain and UK fell out of the ERM (precursor to the Eurozone) and economic disaster was predicted. In fact, it turned out to be rather good for their economies, kick-started their recoveries. Currencies fell c. 20% against the ECU/ DM, and interest rates started to fall.

But I cannot find one such ETF, EUR denominated.

- global credit fund (as above) - you are taking on corporate credit risk, but also diluting the event risk in the case of Italy

- German govt bond fund - but, then, you have the problem that many bunds (Ger govt bonds) have negative yields-- you are guaranteed to get back less than you put in. Ouch.

- German bank deposits within the 100k limit per financial institution. As long as you can stay within those limits, it's a pretty good bet that the German govt will bail the depositors out in any financial crisis, as has been done even in Cyprus, Ireland, Portugal, Slovenia since 2008. There is risk in deposits of more than that, and I imagine they pay 0 interest? But that's better than negative interest rates on bonds.

If you search for my postname, using advanced search, you can get my thoughts and much discussion with others re European govt bond funds.
imperia
Posts: 224
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Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by imperia »

VWRL is listed in Amsterdam,and traded in euros.

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/VWRL:NA

For research I suggest justetf.com
Topic Author
antipro
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Thank you very much Valuethinker and imperia for your inputs! I will do my research and hopefully will be able to post my thoughts here soon again.
international001
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by international001 »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:59 am
I want to start using the products from Vanguard in Germany, but I wonder if I should just get all my capital back from the bank or wait a couple of years. I would just consider getting around 33% bonds and 66% stocks from Vanguard, but I'm not yet sure which ones I should choose. I don't have any plans of buying real estate currently, but that might change. So the main objective I would want to reach with my investment would be to save for retirement and maybe a part for a down payment in a house.
Irish Vanguard funds are a good investment for Europeans. Look at BPN Paribas if available in Germany. They recently decreased the 100k minimum they had. But ask around in all German brokers/banks. You may be hit by comissions. Main advantage of investing on Irish funds are taxes. Investing in Eureope is a hell of complications!

Don't get confused by accumulation funds. They still pay the taxes on dividends (15% because of Ireland/US treaty, if you are buying US stock). ETFs may or may not be better depending on your home country taxation

Some reference viewtopic.php?f=1&t=250531
Mors
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Mors »

Justetf is ideal for research in ETFs and German brokers. Bogleheads wiki also has relevant pages.

Also read the investing and retirement section of finanztip. They make a case for etf investing through insurance. I will post a good example of such a product.

https://www.finanztip.de/altersvorsorge ... svorsorge/

https://vorsorgekampagne.de/test-interr ... satellite/

The absolute simplest portfolio would be Vanguard FTSE All World etf and iShares Global Aggregate Euro hedged bonds etf. You may end up with a bit more complex portfolio if you go after etfs that German brokers offer in saving plans. Consorsbank offers a saving plan with the Vanguard all world etf and a global bonds etf.

https://www.justetf.com/de-en/etf-profi ... 0942970798

https://www.justetf.com/de-en/etf-profi ... 00B3RBWM25


https://www.justetf.com/de-en/etf-profi ... 00BDBRDM35

https://aktionen.consorsbank.de/ev/ev_s ... &cid=AFF-7

Another nice article from finanztip.

https://www.finanztip.de/altersvorsorge/

A robo advisor that offers Vanguard funds. It is called raisin. Pretty good fees for a European robo. ETFmatic is cheaper but be aware of how it handles your taxes.

https://www.raisin.com/press/investing- ... -vanguard/
Topic Author
antipro
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Hi Mors,

thanks a lot for all the reading material! I will make sure to read all of it.

I am planning on opening a free portfolio account from Ing Diba and purchase the ETFs monthly directly through there. I think I can get some info if I should be worried about taxation from the websites you sent me.

Would you recommend getting back the 40 T€ that I already have invested through my Sparkasse and use it to buy the ETFs in a free deposit account or should I leave it there for now?
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Valuethinker »

Mors wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:52 pm

The absolute simplest portfolio would be Vanguard FTSE All World etf and iShares Global Aggregate Euro hedged bonds etf. You may end up with a bit more complex portfolio if you go after etfs that German brokers offer in saving plans. Consorsbank offers a saving plan with the Vanguard all world etf and a global bonds etf.
And this would be a great portfolio. Go 60/40 equity fund/ bond fund, or 70/30, and be done with it*. Simplicity rules-- low costs of rebalancing, clarity of purpose, easier to stick to when things get rough. Complexity is the enemy of a good plan.


Rebalance say once yearly. If capital gains taxes are to be paid upon rebalancing, then avoid rebalancing and direct the monthly cash flow into the underweighted fund (vs. target weightings).

(*one will hate having bonds as equity markets rise. When equity markets do their occasional -35% bear market (let alone -50%, which they can do) then having bonds will feel like a very good idea. One has to be aware that with an aggregate bond fund like that, which includes corporate bonds, it's possible to have a -10% (or more) as we saw during the Great Financial Crisis of 2008-09. A pure Investment Grade global govt bond fund would have less risk of that difficult outcome where your bonds are down -10 to -20% and your stocks are down 50%. Rest assured, in our investing careers, if we live long enough, we will be "lucky" enough to see a year that has -10% on bonds and -30%+ on stocks ;-). )
Mors
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Mors »

antipro wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:27 am Hi Mors,

thanks a lot for all the reading material! I will make sure to read all of it.

I am planning on opening a free portfolio account from Ing Diba and purchase the ETFs monthly directly through there. I think I can get some info if I should be worried about taxation from the websites you sent me.

Would you recommend getting back the 40 T€ that I already have invested through my Sparkasse and use it to buy the ETFs in a free deposit account or should I leave it there for now?
Where do you have them invested? Post the funds if you can.

ING Diba has both etfs (VGWL and XBAE) available in a savings plan. Keep in mind that onvista bank, comdirect and consorsbank offer saving plans with lower fees. Not something really exciting, but then again it is a net benefit.

https://www.justetf.com/de/etf-sparplan ... leich.html
Topic Author
antipro
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Hi Mors,

I have them on the Deka Bank:

Image

Thanks for the heads up. Since opening an account is so easy I might just get one at comdirect instead!
international001
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by international001 »

Portfolio allocation is more or less universal theme

But what are the differences in investing in Vanguard funds vs normal ETFs? Did you check on taxes and comissions?

For instance:

Can you hold ETFs without any custodian comission in Europe?
Do ETFs have automatic dividend reinvestment options? Vanguard funds are accumulative, what it's nice
How much taxes are ETF being wihthold on dividends? Do you have to pay taxes again in your income tax? Can you use a credit?

-J
FinIn
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:03 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by FinIn »

For tax reasons and fees I would advice you invest your money with Vanguard in the US.

Don't tell Vanguard that you live outside the US. Open a bank account at the German DKB bank which allows you to withdraw $1000 per day from a US ATM without fees.
TedSwippet
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Location: UK

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by TedSwippet »

FinIn wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:57 amFor tax reasons and fees I would advice you invest your money with Vanguard in the US.
I may be wrong -- admittedly they have not said either way -- but it looks to me like the OP is not a US citizen. In which case, investing with Vanguard US would probably not be possible, and certainly not advisable.
Mors
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Mors »

antipro wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:51 am Hi Mors,

I have them on the Deka Bank:

Image

Thanks for the heads up. Since opening an account is so easy I might just get one at comdirect instead!
You should probably sell.

Comdirect also offers in a savings plan this small cap etf to combine with the Vanguard FTSE All World

https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... 00BCBJG560

And this global government inv grade bond fund.

https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... 0690964092
Topic Author
antipro
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Yeah, I'm an European citizen, so I will stick to investments in Europe.

There is only one of the funds that I can't sell (the hausinvest one). I need to wait 2 years to sell that.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Valuethinker »

international001 wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:33 am Portfolio allocation is more or less universal theme

But what are the differences in investing in Vanguard funds vs normal ETFs? Did you check on taxes and comissions?

For instance:

Can you hold ETFs without any custodian comission in Europe?
This seems to vary by country, and account.
Do ETFs have automatic dividend reinvestment options? Vanguard funds are accumulative, what it's nice
I don't believe they all are? Some are, but only some?
How much taxes are ETF being wihthold on dividends? Do you have to pay taxes again in your income tax? Can you use a credit?

-J
Over to OP's national tax system.
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alpine_boglehead
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Location: Austria

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by alpine_boglehead »

I agree with Mors' recommendation of Vanguard All-World and iShares Global Aggregate Bond Eur Hedged ETF. Other equivalent ETFs will also do, but these are low-cost and very broad, and a 2 fund portfolio is as simple as it gets.

Open an account with a discount broker, either use a savings plan, or invest yourself every few months.

As to your existing holdings, you should likely sell, e.g. the first in the list has an expense ratio of 1.43% p.a.
The front load fees (Ausgabeaufschlag) you already paid are lost, but don't throw good money after bad.
I've also paid for this expensive lesson myself.

Read the getting started wiki page and perhaps return to the bogleheads from time to time. EU investing topics are getting more frequent.

You should probably also look at Germany-based blogs/boards for further info, I personally like to read Finanzwesir (not affiliated with it). There's also sites for comparing brokers.
international001
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Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by international001 »

So how are the dividends of those ETFs handled in Germany? And capital gains?
Mors
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Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Mors »

international001 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:27 pm So how are the dividends of those ETFs handled in Germany? And capital gains?
Read these.

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/etf/etf ... -2018.html

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/geldanl ... etrag.html

Essentially, both dividends and non-realized capital gains are taxed every year, so in general there is no important reason to favor accumulating over distributing. However, since the first 801 euro of dividends are tax free each year, it is in your benefit to choose distributing etfs for your first 20-50k invested or so. Alternatively, you can claim the tax relief by realizing capital gains, but this is more clunky and introduces transaction costs. After claiming your tax free dividends, accumulating etfs offer some tax deferral, so they are preferable if everything else is equal.

The only other way to save on your tax is through insurance contracts, state - subsidised or not. However, these are generally from quite to very expensive, and they are only worth considering if you tax a significant part of your income with the highest marginal tax rate (I believe that it is 42%).

Quite a letdown that the state mainly "pushes" insurance contracts instead of accounts like the UK ISA and SIPP to cover the third pillar of saving for retirement. Also, about the case that a no closing cost life insurance that invests in etfs can be a competitive alternative to direct investing in etfs, it seems that with the new rules about withholding taxation, even the cheapest insurance contract cannot compete with the returns of a direct etf savings plan. Not a shocker, but interesting nonetheless.
international001
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Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by international001 »

Mors wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:57 pm
international001 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:27 pm So how are the dividends of those ETFs handled in Germany? And capital gains?
Read these.

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/etf/etf ... -2018.html

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/geldanl ... etrag.html

Essentially, both dividends and non-realized capital gains are taxed every year, so in general there is no important reason to favor accumulating over distributing. However, since the first 801 euro of dividends are tax free each year, it is in your benefit to choose distributing etfs for your first 20-50k invested or so. Alternatively, you can claim the tax relief by realizing capital gains, but this is more clunky and introduces transaction costs. After claiming your tax free dividends, accumulating etfs offer some tax deferral, so they are preferable if everything else is equal.

The only other way to save on your tax is through insurance contracts, state - subsidised or not. However, these are generally from quite to very expensive, and they are only worth considering if you tax a significant part of your income with the highest marginal tax rate (I believe that it is 42%).

Quite a letdown that the state mainly "pushes" insurance contracts instead of accounts like the UK ISA and SIPP to cover the third pillar of saving for retirement. Also, about the case that a no closing cost life insurance that invests in etfs can be a competitive alternative to direct investing in etfs, it seems that with the new rules about withholding taxation, even the cheapest insurance contract cannot compete with the returns of a direct etf savings plan. Not a shocker, but interesting nonetheless.

Thanks, I don't speak German but Google translation gave me an idea
It looks the 2018 reform wnated to make things simpler. It still looks over-complicated to me (and over-taxing!). I'm happy go be an US investor.
Mors
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by Mors »

international001 wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:03 am
Mors wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:57 pm
international001 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:27 pm So how are the dividends of those ETFs handled in Germany? And capital gains?
Read these.

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/etf/etf ... -2018.html

https://www.justetf.com/de/news/geldanl ... etrag.html

Essentially, both dividends and non-realized capital gains are taxed every year, so in general there is no important reason to favor accumulating over distributing. However, since the first 801 euro of dividends are tax free each year, it is in your benefit to choose distributing etfs for your first 20-50k invested or so. Alternatively, you can claim the tax relief by realizing capital gains, but this is more clunky and introduces transaction costs. After claiming your tax free dividends, accumulating etfs offer some tax deferral, so they are preferable if everything else is equal.

The only other way to save on your tax is through insurance contracts, state - subsidised or not. However, these are generally from quite to very expensive, and they are only worth considering if you tax a significant part of your income with the highest marginal tax rate (I believe that it is 42%).

Quite a letdown that the state mainly "pushes" insurance contracts instead of accounts like the UK ISA and SIPP to cover the third pillar of saving for retirement. Also, about the case that a no closing cost life insurance that invests in etfs can be a competitive alternative to direct investing in etfs, it seems that with the new rules about withholding taxation, even the cheapest insurance contract cannot compete with the returns of a direct etf savings plan. Not a shocker, but interesting nonetheless.
Thanks, I don't speak German but Google translation gave me an idea
It looks the 2018 reform wnated to make things simpler. It still looks over-complicated to me (and over-taxing!). I'm happy go be an US investor.
You are welcome.

US is definitely the best country to be an investor, without this meaning that there is not a lot to be done yet to improve the investor experience.
TM90
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:13 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by TM90 »

I'm from Belgium I use a four Fund Portfolio;

IShares MSCI World
IShares MSCI World Small Cap
IShares MSCI Emerging Markets IMI
IShares Barclays Global Aggregate Bond EUR Hedged
international001
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by international001 »

Nothing against your selection.

But did you check your dividend taxation? This are not accumulation funds, are they?

It would seem the country of origin of the stocks tax them (e.g. US 15% because of treaty, plus 30% by Belgium)

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investi ... by_Belgium
Topic Author
antipro
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:19 am

Re: Help for a beginner investor in Germany

Post by antipro »

Hello everyone,

thanks again for all the help provided here! I read the Bogleheads' Guide to Investing recently and the support from this forum is even better than I expected after reading the book. Although it is a lot of material to digest, I definitely am a bit wiser than yesterday. I started with an investment plan in comdirect with following ETFs:

Image

I'll put also aside 250€ for my emergency fund and move this to the investment plan once I get to about 15k.

With regards to the 40k already invested I will sell them as soon as I can (one of them is a "Immobilienfond" which I have to hold for 2 years) and buy ETFs with the same strategy (70/30).

Unfortunately the iShares Bond ETF WKN: A2H6ZT is not available as a investment plan in comdirect so I went for the Xtrackers Barclays WKN DBX0NZ.

Again, thank you so much for the help and advice provided. You guys and girls are awesome.
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