is Ed Jones always bad news?

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crit
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is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by crit » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:48 pm

This is likely a rhetorical question I am guessing, but -- does EJ offer any low-cost index funds?

My father recently offered up the fact that he was putting the proceeds of his annuities, into an EJ account. I facepalmed twice for that statement. I tried to steer the conversation towards index funds, he said he let the EJ woman choose what she thought was best out of a list. I'm at least glad that he has some money, and apparently more than is currently needed.

But the likelihood is that he's in some expensive, front-loaded fund, right?

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:52 pm

I don't think you will find any under .50% expense ratio. Is he in any Advisory Solutions products? That carries the 1.35% all inclusive management fee.

My parents expense ratios were (they got out) in the .54% to 2.0% range. None lower than that. Lots of up front sales loads and they had 2 accounts with all Advisory Solutions.

I will be untangling their mess for parts of the next 2 years to keep the tax impact spread out over several years.

So the answer is Yes. If you can, find any way to do it yourself or lower the costs by using Vanguard Personal Advisory Service.
"We are here not to please but to provoke thoughtfulness" Unknown Boglehead

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by knpstr » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:58 pm

EJ is by no means ideal. Vanguard is by far superior.

That being said, EJ isn't going to make him go broke. My dad is with EJ and is staying with him. I've talked to him about vanguard and the difference in fees, but he likes being able to go to someone in town that he knows. That is what makes him comfortable and he has done and will continue to do good enough.
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by guyesmith » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Is Edward Jones always bad news? No.

My brother uses Edward Jones and is very happy. He likes his CFP and he talks with him every year and as necessary to strategize. It's a good plan for him. He can say, "Hey, I have a goal to save for could you recommend a fund for me?"

Most of the population is better served to have a quality and caring CFP on their side.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by alfaspider » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:11 pm

guyesmith wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 pm
Is Edward Jones always bad news? No.

My brother uses Edward Jones and is very happy. He likes his CFP and he talks with him every year and as necessary to strategize. It's a good plan for him. He can say, "Hey, I have a goal to save for could you recommend a fund for me?"

Most of the population is better served to have a quality and caring CFP on their side.
Your brother is only happy because he doesn't understand what's happening and how much he is paying.

His EJ salesperson will promptly put him in the highest fee funds out there regardless of what his savings goal is. I don't doubt there are good and caring EJ salespeople out there, but they are not allowed to give quality and caring financial advice.

EJ is always bad news, but I will admit that it is better than letting your money sit in a checking account.They may steal 1/3 (or more) of your returns, but at least you have returns.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:23 pm

OP, it's probably a 1.35% AUM with average ER's in 0.80 bps range on "A" shares with front end loads that follow a breakpoint schedule ($100k=3.5%, $250k=2.5% $500k=2%, $750k=1.5%, $1M=0). I.e., not good. The cost for the convenience of seeing a friendly familiar face (my own version of "3F") once a year will cost one dearly. When you get to $500k, just think, at 1.35%, that's almost $7k for that 60 minute chat at the end of the year to drop in and "see how things are going" with your EJ advisor.

guyesmith wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 pm
Is Edward Jones always bad news? No.

My brother uses Edward Jones and is very happy. He likes his CFP and he talks with him every year and as necessary to strategize. It's a good plan for him. He can say, "Hey, I have a goal to save for could you recommend a fund for me?"

Most of the population is better served to have a quality and caring CFP on their side.
You can get a fee only CFP, not sure why the designation was pointed out?

delamer
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by delamer » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:30 pm

There are two costs — the ERs for the individual funds and the overall asset management fee.

Even if the rep puts your father in low cost funds, he still is paying a management fee.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:39 pm

Compared to what? Compared to keeping all your money in a no interest checking account? Compared to buying gold, then selling that and buying Amazon, then selling that and buying whole life insurance?

A person with some education about investments who has the temperament and discipline to formulate and stick to a reasonable plan is better than Ed Jones. Is your father such a person? Does he consider you to be such a person, and would he and every other person in your family trust you with his money? If not, Ed Jones is not the worst plan.

The worst plan is letting that nice friendly guy from church/scouts/volunteering manage your money, then finding out he spent your money on his boat and has left the country. At least at Ed Jones you know your money is where they say it is.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:42 pm

crit wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:48 pm
This is likely a rhetorical question I am guessing, but -- does EJ offer any low-cost index funds?
I've never heard of EJ recommending index funds, but I suppose it's not impossible. Most often, when I read about EJ investing someone in mutual funds, it's been in American Funds offerings. You can find a list of American funds here. Note that there are no passively-managed (i.e. index) funds shown.
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

crit
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by crit » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:38 pm

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:39 pm
Compared to what? Compared to keeping all your money in a no interest checking account? Compared to buying gold, then selling that and buying Amazon, then selling that and buying whole life insurance?

A person with some education about investments who has the temperament and discipline to formulate and stick to a reasonable plan is better than Ed Jones. Is your father such a person? Does he consider you to be such a person, and would he and every other person in your family trust you with his money? If not, Ed Jones is not the worst plan.

The worst plan is letting that nice friendly guy from church/scouts/volunteering manage your money, then finding out he spent your money on his boat and has left the country. At least at Ed Jones you know your money is where they say it is.
These are good questions, and I agree that EJ isn't the worst of all the possibles in this case, even if they are charging him coming and going. I'm certainly in no hurry to jump into the fray of his finances.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Xrayman69 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:57 pm

I started out with EJ when I first started investing as my first real job required I have a place for them to send my retirement contribution 2.5 x my contribution to the maximum allowed annually). I was at this job for 2 years.

Got another job at large organization that had fidelity as the retirement plan. I was not savvy at the early career stage and at that point only put in 401k and full match along with company additional contribution to retirement pension plan equivalent and thus did not contribute any more into taxable accounts. As such every six months or so invested 1-3 k with the Edward Jones account into a personal account into individual stocks (buy and hold philosophy).

Now 12 years into my career only contribute to my company retirement account to the max and additionally to personal account With vanguard.

The EJ has not had any additional contribution over the past 8 years. It accounts for a little less then 1/3 of my investment and retirement accounts. The annual rate of return seems comparable to the S & P annually and when I review the statements annually only see a $35 quarterly that is outgoing. I presume the rest of the charges are built into the funds.

That being said I do like the ability to meet up to quarterly with the CFP to review all my other accounts and make sure minimize duplication or overlap or other inefficiencies. Also having EJ was also VERY useful when we inherited a sizable trust mainly of real-estate properties and to a lesser degree cash and equities.

The trust lawyers were able to communicate with then EJ office to set up seperate accounts for siblings to efficiently transfer stocks then the siblings were able to go and address individually as they saw fit.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:08 pm

I removed an off-topic post (sexist comment) and several replies. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
avoid profanities, obscenities, lewd and otherwise offensive words and remarks
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bberris
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by bberris » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:09 pm

You could do worse, and a lot of people have. But really, why scrape the bottom of the barrel?

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Khanmots » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:16 pm

oldcomputerguy wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:42 pm
crit wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:48 pm
This is likely a rhetorical question I am guessing, but -- does EJ offer any low-cost index funds?
I've never heard of EJ recommending index funds, but I suppose it's not impossible. Most often, when I read about EJ investing someone in mutual funds, it's been in American Funds offerings. You can find a list of American funds here. Note that there are no passively-managed (i.e. index) funds shown.
The trigger for me bailing out of Ameriprise was reading through *all* of the fine print... one thing (of many) that I discovered were that their advisors are only allowed to bring up funds from two internal lists. The preferred list averaged a 1% 12b-1 fee (i.e., the max allowable). The other list was funds with a 0.75% 12b-1 fee. They could only discuss other funds with you if you brought them up first.

I would be quite surprised if EJ and other predatory advisory firms didn't have similar practices. In fact... a few minutes digging through their site and..
https://www.edwardjones.com/images/reve ... losure.pdf
Additionally, while Edward Jones financial advisors may sell, and our clients are free to select, funds from many mutual fund families, we predominantly promote mutual fund preferred product partners. The vast majority of mutual funds, 529 plans and annuity products sold by Edward Jones involve preferred product partners, and, as noted above, most of these product partners pay revenue sharing to Edward Jones.
Not sure if this revenue sharing counts 12b-1 fees or is something else. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to dig deeper :)
Last edited by Khanmots on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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goingup
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by goingup » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:17 pm

I've seen mostly reasonable portfolios posted here from EJ. Lots of American Funds. The problem for us DIY'ers is the advisory fees, fund fees and loads. This could add up to 2%. When you've planned to take 4% (or less) of your portfolio as a safe withdrawal rate in retirement, giving 2% to EJ seems ridiculous.

If your father is happy there and finances aren't too tight I wouldn't intervene.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:22 pm

Xrayman69 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:57 pm
I started out with EJ when I first started investing as my first real job required I have a place for them to send my retirement contribution 2.5 x my contribution to the maximum allowed annually). I was at this job for 2 years.

Got another job at large organization that had fidelity as the retirement plan. I was not savvy at the early career stage and at that point only put in 401k and full match along with company additional contribution to retirement pension plan equivalent and thus did not contribute any more into taxable accounts. As such every six months or so invested 1-3 k with the Edward Jones account into a personal account into individual stocks (buy and hold philosophy).

Now 12 years into my career only contribute to my company retirement account to the max and additionally to personal account With vanguard.

The EJ has not had any additional contribution over the past 8 years. It accounts for a little less then 1/3 of my investment and retirement accounts. The annual rate of return seems comparable to the S & P annually and when I review the statements annually only see a $35 quarterly that is outgoing. I presume the rest of the charges are built into the funds.

That being said I do like the ability to meet up to quarterly with the CFP to review all my other accounts and make sure minimize duplication or overlap or other inefficiencies. Also having EJ was also VERY useful when we inherited a sizable trust mainly of real-estate properties and to a lesser degree cash and equities.

The trust lawyers were able to communicate with then EJ office to set up seperate accounts for siblings to efficiently transfer stocks then the siblings were able to go and address individually as they saw fit.
I think either Fidelity or Schwab would have been as helpful as EJ. Not sure about Vanguard.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by 1210sda » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:24 pm

goingup wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:17 pm
I've seen mostly reasonable portfolios posted here from EJ. Lots of American Funds. The problem for us DIY'ers is the advisory fees, fund fees and loads. This could add up to 2%. When you've planned to take 4% (or less) of your portfolio as a safe withdrawal rate in retirement, giving 2% to EJ seems ridiculous.

If your father is happy there and finances aren't too tight I wouldn't intervene.
This is a very significant point. It probably doesn't get as much attention during the accumulation stage, since the expected returns are typically higher than 4%.

Even worse is if you've decided to be conservative in your withdrawal stage and only plan to withdraw 3% (or less).
Arrghhh!!!!

1210

Xrayman69
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Xrayman69 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:29 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:22 pm
Xrayman69 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:57 pm
I started out with EJ when I first started investing as my first real job required I have a place for them to send my retirement contribution 2.5 x my contribution to the maximum allowed annually). I was at this job for 2 years.

Got another job at large organization that had fidelity as the retirement plan. I was not savvy at the early career stage and at that point only put in 401k and full match along with company additional contribution to retirement pension plan equivalent and thus did not contribute any more into taxable accounts. As such every six months or so invested 1-3 k with the Edward Jones account into a personal account into individual stocks (buy and hold philosophy).

Now 12 years into my career only contribute to my company retirement account to the max and additionally to personal account With vanguard.

The EJ has not had any additional contribution over the past 8 years. It accounts for a little less then 1/3 of my investment and retirement accounts. The annual rate of return seems comparable to the S & P annually and when I review the statements annually only see a $35 quarterly that is outgoing. I presume the rest of the charges are built into the funds.

That being said I do like the ability to meet up to quarterly with the CFP to review all my other accounts and make sure minimize duplication or overlap or other inefficiencies. Also having EJ was also VERY useful when we inherited a sizable trust mainly of real-estate properties and to a lesser degree cash and equities.


The trust lawyers were able to communicate with then EJ office to set up seperate accounts for siblings to efficiently transfer stocks then the siblings were able to go and address individually as they saw fit.
I think either Fidelity or Schwab would have been as helpful as EJ. Not sure about Vanguard.

Agree that fidelity or Schwab probably would be just as helpful.

However the EJ office is literally in the neighborhood and we could direct our siblings into the office with a human being (the siblings have very low financial IQ and worst, have made very bad financial decisions in the past for which I want nothing to be associated and just wanted a transactional efficient episode of transfer th n extract myself from anything to do with their finances).

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:48 pm

Xrayman69 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:29 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:22 pm
Xrayman69 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:57 pm
I started out with EJ when I first started investing as my first real job required I have a place for them to send my retirement contribution 2.5 x my contribution to the maximum allowed annually). I was at this job for 2 years.

Got another job at large organization that had fidelity as the retirement plan. I was not savvy at the early career stage and at that point only put in 401k and full match along with company additional contribution to retirement pension plan equivalent and thus did not contribute any more into taxable accounts. As such every six months or so invested 1-3 k with the Edward Jones account into a personal account into individual stocks (buy and hold philosophy).

Now 12 years into my career only contribute to my company retirement account to the max and additionally to personal account With vanguard.

The EJ has not had any additional contribution over the past 8 years. It accounts for a little less then 1/3 of my investment and retirement accounts. The annual rate of return seems comparable to the S & P annually and when I review the statements annually only see a $35 quarterly that is outgoing. I presume the rest of the charges are built into the funds.

That being said I do like the ability to meet up to quarterly with the CFP to review all my other accounts and make sure minimize duplication or overlap or other inefficiencies. Also having EJ was also VERY useful when we inherited a sizable trust mainly of real-estate properties and to a lesser degree cash and equities.


The trust lawyers were able to communicate with then EJ office to set up seperate accounts for siblings to efficiently transfer stocks then the siblings were able to go and address individually as they saw fit.
I think either Fidelity or Schwab would have been as helpful as EJ. Not sure about Vanguard.

Agree that fidelity or Schwab probably would be just as helpful.

However the EJ office is literally in the neighborhood and we could direct our siblings into the office with a human being (the siblings have very low financial IQ and worst, have made very bad financial decisions in the past for which I want nothing to be associated and just wanted a transactional efficient episode of transfer th n extract myself from anything to do with their finances).
I do understand. I just shudder after seeing so many portfolios from EJ posted on this site. And the loads and AUM fees on top of it - I shudder. I did have a CFP direct me into AF mutual funds with large load. I groan when I realize how much I paid. But glad I did not pay AUM. The AF finds did ok. Ignoring the load fees, It is hard to tell what each AF fund contains. I am betting I had the same stocks in multiple funds without knowing it.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by JBTX » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:20 pm

I recently encountered an Edward Jones guy who works for a friend and I was rather surprised at his level of knowledge and professionalism. Don't get me wrong I'd never use one nor recommend one but for some you might not be that bad if you get one with some integrity. For an older individual the compounding effects of the fees aren't as bad for somebody investing another 30-40 or more years.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by harvestbook » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:21 pm

EJ gets kickbacks on certain funds, particularly American funds. So it's not surprising they often find them "appropriate."
I'm not smart enough to know, and I can't afford to guess.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by pkcrafter » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:21 pm

is Ed Jones always bad news?
My answer is yes.

If some posters want to use EJ they should really understand the costs over time and decide if it's worth it. EJ charges a management fee of 1.35%, and then you have to add in the expense ratios of the funds you have. Using something like 0.65% for expense ratio, that brings costs up to 2%. If you have taxable accounts it's even worse because of tax-inefficient funds which high-cost advisors will use without a second thought. What people may not consider is fees compound and can become a significant reduction on what you end up with.

If some want professional management, they can get a good fee-only advisor who uses index funds and total costs would be around 1.1% plus taxes in taxable accounts, but it's very likely index funds would have much lower tax drag.

Check the cost drag here:

https://www.buyupside.com/calculators/feesdec07.htm

Paul
Last edited by pkcrafter on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by GoldStar » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:24 pm

I'm guessing the majority of Ed Jones customers have no idea how much growth they are bleeding to fees as compared to other options.
I'm also sure Ed Jones has many happy customers.
Ignorance is bliss.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by smitcat » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:45 pm

Is Ed Jones always bad news?
I cannot speak for others that I am not familiar with.
But with my cousin , one friend and ourselves the answer would be Yes - EJ was bad news.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by MrPotatoHead » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:28 pm

crit wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:48 pm
This is likely a rhetorical question I am guessing, but -- does EJ offer any low-cost index funds?

My father recently offered up the fact that he was putting the proceeds of his annuities, into an EJ account. I facepalmed twice for that statement. I tried to steer the conversation towards index funds, he said he let the EJ woman choose what she thought was best out of a list. I'm at least glad that he has some money, and apparently more than is currently needed.

But the likelihood is that he's in some expensive, front-loaded fund, right?
They offer supposed low cost etfs:

https://www.edwardjones.com/investments ... /etfs.html

They way I would handle is, is I would write up an IPS for my father that includes a mandate to use low cost etfs consisting of X,Y and Z. I would then have it notarized by my father that this states his wishes. I would then have the FA at EJ read it and have it notarized also (they can likely do that in house).

Congratulations, you just created a problem for EJ if they do anything other than implement the IPS.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by BeBH65 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:24 pm

We have the following picture in our wiki in the section the principle keep costs low

Image
It shows the impact of a 1% fee. I fund it very compelling.
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Nate79 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:17 pm

Only in Bogleheads dreamland is the alternative to Edward Jones a self managed low cost index fund portfolio. Dream on. The alternative is going to be single stock picking, bitcoin, Whole life (and its ugly cousins), and screening for mutual funds that had the highest performance.

That's what normal people do every day. Just cruise reddit and see all the stupidity over there.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by MrPotatoHead » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:58 am

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:17 pm
Only in Bogleheads dreamland is the alternative to Edward Jones a self managed low cost index fund portfolio. Dream on. The alternative is going to be single stock picking, bitcoin, Whole life (and its ugly cousins), and screening for mutual funds that had the highest performance.

That's what normal people do every day. Just cruise reddit and see all the stupidity over there.
Yes, and that is exactly what allows me to enjoy the best of both worlds at Fido and Schwab. These folks pay the freight that allows me to get top flight customer service, free consultation with financial SMEs, all the while maintaining the bulk of assets in low cost etfs. God bless the ignorant.

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by burt » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:30 am

BeBH65 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:24 pm
We have the following picture in our wiki in the section the principle keep costs low

Image
It shows the impact of a 1% fee. I fund it very compelling.
Thank-you for the chart. Eye opening. I wonder what the chart would look like with 1.5 or 2.0% expenses.
Is EJ always bad news? Yes (well... unless you are over age 80 or rich or both)
For young or middle aged people of modest means, those loads and expenses have a significant impact on retirement standard of living.

burt

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Re: is Ed Jones always bad news?

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:10 pm

They provide employment for two of my nieces.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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