[Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

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victor0nl1n3
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[Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Wed May 16, 2018 6:56 am

Hey everyone,

I'm located in Belgium and have decided to start index investing.

After a bit of initial research, I opened brokerage accounts with Bolero and Bink Bank. This was completely free so I figured I could get a feel for both platform before making a decision. However, further research brought me to Degiro. The commission-price difference simply baffles me.

If I want to buy an ETF with Bolero, it will cost me 7.5€. With Degiro it's 2€ + 0.02% for the transaction but I also need to pay 2.5€ per year for access to the market. Except it gets better. If I pick an ETF from this list the commission fee is 0€. It still get's better. If the ETF I select is listed on the "local" stock exchange, access to the market is also free.

Now I have been on the Wiki Boglehead for investing in Belgium and they recommend the following ETFs:

• iShares Core MSCI World UCITS ETF (IWDA)
• iShares Core MSCI Emerging Markets IMI UCITS ETF (EIMI)
• SPDR® MSCI World Small Cap ETF (WDSC or ZPRS)

If you follow the link with the ETF list mentioned above, you will find IWDA (ISIN IE00B4L5Y983). EIMI is not in the list but IEMA is (ISIN IE00B4L5YC18). This is a close equivalent in terms of content but with a TER of 0.68% (versus 0.25% for the recommended EIMI) it's much more expensive.
Let's forget about small caps for now.

When opening an account an account with Degiro, I can select country "Belgium" by going either through the Dutch version of the site or the French version. If I chose the Dutch, my "local" stock exchange is Amsterdam. Since both ETF listed above (IWDA and IEMA) are listed on that exchange, this means I can invest with no brokerage cost at all!!

Question: Can somebody confirm that what I just wrote is accurate? Furthermore, can anybody tell my any drawbacks of Degiro compared to say Bolero or Bink Bank? In short: am I oversimplifying? Have I missed some small-prints? Are there any security issues I am overlooking with Degiro?

Going further: As I mentioned above, the TER of IEMA is 0.68%. I'm not super happy about that. I have looked at the list but cannot come up with a more profitable mix (i.e. 30% of an ETF for LATAM + 50% with an ETF for ASPAC + 20% for Emerging Europe).
The only thing I can imagine here is to monthly invest in IEMA without any fees and on an annual base sell it all to buy EIMI and pay the commission then.

==> That's the plan so far. It's a bit scary to consider putting all my savings in like that so any comments / insight / guidance will be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Last edited by victor0nl1n3 on Wed May 16, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

silverex
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by silverex » Wed May 16, 2018 2:51 pm

You understood it well. I’d also say don’t be afraid to sometimes pay small comission fees instead of buying more expensive funds, that might be cheaper even during the year once you get more substantial amounts invested.

The plan to sell at the end of one year all buy cheaper one sounds good, but make sure you don’t incur any tax liabilities if fund’s value goes up, that might destroy any comission savings you get.

It looks like you plan to invest regularly, so each time you invest, you can buy not all 2 or 3 funds, but just one of them (whichever has lowest allocation comparing to target). This way you’ll save a lot even if all you get comission free is IWDA.

victor0nl1n3
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:29 pm

Thanks a lot for the answer and pep-talk (no irony :))

Do you know why there's such a difference in fees between - one hand - Bolero, Bink Bank and even Lynx - and on the other - Degiro?

You correctly assumed this is going to be an ongoing regular investment. I will invest 1000€/month.

Regarding the small-stocks, I'm considering not getting any. I had a look at IWDA compared to ZPRS.

Both ETF seem so closely related that I don't see what I would bother with ZPRS and incur the extra cost (it's neither commission free nor on the Amesterdam stock exchange and it has quite a high TER).

So I'm thinking about building a 2 ETFs portfolio balance as follow:
IWDA: 75%
Emerging market (either IEMA or EIMI): 25%

I've run a little simulation and it does look like IEMA or EIMI will cost me basically the same on a yearly base. Considering the added complexity of being IEMA then regularly selling and buy EIMI instead to minimise TER, I think I'll just bite the bullet and get EIMI directly. I will simply do it every 2 months instead of every month to lower costs.

Final question: What is the risk of the Money Market Fund?

Here what I read on Degiro's website:
DEGIRO believes it is important that clients understand how the structure with the money market funds works. DEGIRO is not a bank but an investment firm. In the Netherlands investment firms are not allowed to hold money of clients. Therefore, when you become a client of DEGIRO, you give a standing order to invest money in money market funds (the FundShare Cash Funds). Hence, at DEGIRO you do not hold money. For every currency available in the WebTrader, a separate money market fund is available. The objective of the money market funds is to realise a return that is equal to the market interest rate with as low a risk as possible. An additional advantage to the low risk, is that your Cash Fund participations, just like your other investments, are kept strictly separate from the assets of DEGIRO.
So OK I get that for legal reason they are not allowed to hold my cash but what are they actually doing with it? Is this the kind of small-print that will turn around and bite me in the ass?

Once again, please be sure that any feedback / insight / comment will be highly appreciated and valued.

imperia
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by imperia » Wed May 16, 2018 11:59 pm

For small cap there is new etf from iShares with TER 0.35%
iShares MSCI World Small Cap UCITS ETF(WSML)
WDSC has TER 0.45%

There is also new MSCI World ETF Lyxor Core MSCI World (DR) UCITS ETF (LCWD) TER:0.12%, but it is new ETF from 28 February 2018, and fond size is just 34m, but I expect growth in future.

For emerging markets Xtrackers MSCI Emerging Markets UCITS ETF 1C (XMME),TER:0.20%, but tracks different index then EIMI.

I suggest you to invest every month, commision of 4€ is not that scary.
Every month buy IWDA(LCWD), and one or two time in year buy EIMI(XMME) and maybe WSML.

victor0nl1n3
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Thu May 17, 2018 3:47 am

Hey thanks a lot, this is great advice!

1) About WSML [Global Small caps]: Thanks a lot for telling me about this, it's going in my portfolio!

2) About LCWD [Global Developed Market]: This fund is domiciled in Luxembourg. According to Bogleheads Wiki, a Belgian investor should favor Irish based funds, for tax reasons.

3) About XMME [Emerging Market]: According to Morningstar, both XMME and EIMI track the MSCI EM IMI NR USD. Both funds are based in Ireland and capitalize dividends. So I might as well pick the one with the lowest TER and that's XMME.

==> Thanks to your input I was able to find 2 better ETF's from what I was planning to build my portfolio with. Considering we are talking about a 3 ETF portfolio, this is pretty huge!

About Degiro: I am still trying to understand how the fee structure can be so much lower than competition. From what I see everything seems above board but you know what they say about deals that seem too good to be true ...
In addition, any info about their "Money Market Fund" would be appreciated.


Thanks for input!

ignition
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by ignition » Thu May 17, 2018 4:02 am

Cool, I'm also from Belgium.

I didn't use the Degiro because when I started it only had a password to protect the account. Not sure if that changed in the meantime. While others, such as Binck, offered 2-factor authentication (eg a password and a code received via SMS) which seemed safer to me.

Other than that I think Degiro is legit. Money market fund is no problem. It's a fund just like the others you're buying and seperate from the assets of Degiro (so in a way safer than the assets on a bank account as these are NOT seperate from the bank's assets. On the other hand bank accounts are insured by the government for up to € 100k)

silverex
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by silverex » Thu May 17, 2018 4:34 am

XMME and EIMI do not track the same index - MSCI EM NR USD vs MSCI EM IMI NR USD. EIMI includes small caps.

EM is about 10% of global cap, so you can invest something like 10 months only to IWDA only, and 11th month to EIMI only, this way you'll really minimise your comissions.

It's probably a risk with Degiro as is a risk with any other broker, check out recent story: http://monevator.com/even-brokers-can-fail-you/
You can transfer your portfolio every one or two years to another broker to manage risk.

silverex
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by silverex » Thu May 17, 2018 4:36 am

Yeah, Degiro now offers 2 factor auth too.

If you're wondering about Degiro fees, you should check out Deziro. ;)

victor0nl1n3
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Thu May 17, 2018 4:46 am

Thanks a lot for your input!

It's a good catch about the different indexes between XMME and EIMI. I got confused because they are both in the same Morningstar category of which the benchmark is MSCI EM NR USD.

@Ignition: As a fellow Belgian, do you have any tips & advice that could help me along the way? It's sometimes hard to find specific money management advice relevant to our small country. This is why I'm asking the question here rather than by PM. Who knows, maybe this will help someone else :-D.

victor0nl1n3
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Thu May 17, 2018 4:51 am

silverex wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:36 am
If you're wondering about Degiro fees, you should check out Deziro. ;)
Damn! What is this?!? Sounds pretty sketchy to be honest. I guess I'll start with Degiro and if Deziro hasn't gone bankrupt in a couple of years I'll reconsider.

It's really insane the price difference we can find.

imperia
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by imperia » Thu May 17, 2018 6:50 am

victor0nl1n3 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:47 am

2) About LCWD [Global Developed Market]: This fund is domiciled in Luxembourg. According to Bogleheads Wiki, a Belgian investor should favor Irish based funds, for tax reasons.
Luxembourg just like Ireland has tax treaty with USA and pay 15% on USA dividend.
Luxembourg does not tax dividend for non residents holding ucits etf.

As far as I know after Ireland Luxembourg is most common country for ETFs, and has same tax advatages like Ireland.

For broker check IB Brokers
Last edited by imperia on Thu May 17, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BeBH65
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by BeBH65 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am

Hello Victor,

Welcome to the forum.

I have no experience with Degiro so cannot help you there.
What I heard is tht DeGiro might be lending our your shares to others who will then short them.... there is a price for getting something for free.
Make sure to buy the funds in Euro to avoid currency exchange costs.

Some additional questions:
- Over time your different fund will perform differently. What is your rebalancing strategy?
- Do you have any other investments besides this?
- What will you use for the stable portion of your portfolio?


Some other answers.
- Adding small caps is not the most urgent: small caps have a higher expected (but not guaranteed) return over the long term.
- The inclusion of Emerging Markets enlarges your diversification. Remember EM has a higher volatilty.
- You do not need to buy all the funds every month. you can buy one fund every month: the one that lags the target % the most. Might mean you only buy EM once evere three or four months. This way you limit your transaction costs without enlarging the risk too much.
- Money Market: De giro is not a bank, and is not allowed to hold any cash. That is why they buy a MM fund with your cash. This fund is deposited to a custodian like your other funds. Check what the MM fund contains and decide then how much "cash" you will keep in the MM funds.
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

ignition
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by ignition » Thu May 17, 2018 8:35 am

victor0nl1n3 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:46 am
@Ignition: As a fellow Belgian, do you have any tips & advice that could help me along the way? It's sometimes hard to find specific money management advice relevant to our small country. This is why I'm asking the question here rather than by PM. Who knows, maybe this will help someone else :-D.
You're on the right track. Now that you've found bogleheads you're way ahead of 95% of Belgians when it comes to investing :happy

Accumulating ETFs domiciled in Ireland are the best. To keep things simple I only invest in IWDA. I don't think a small allocation to small caps and EM will make a big difference so I don't bother (could be wrong of course as no one knows the future).

As for now, I only invest in stocks as I'm still young and have a long investment horizon in front of me (although I don't plan to work until I'm 67 :P ). When I retire I'll probably move a small percentage to bonds, maybe 10-20%, to make withdrawals from when the stock market crashes. 100% stocks is of course not for everyone, you must be sure that you will stay the course when stocks crash and everyone is panicing.

ignition
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by ignition » Thu May 17, 2018 8:47 am

silverex wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 4:36 am
Yeah, Degiro now offers 2 factor auth too.

If you're wondering about Degiro fees, you should check out Deziro. ;)
Nice, I might start using Degiro in this case
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am
I have no experience with Degiro so cannot help you there.
What I heard is tht DeGiro might be lending our your shares to others who will then short them.... there is a price for getting something for free.
They won't lend out your shares if you use the "custody account" option if I recall correctly.

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BeBH65
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by BeBH65 » Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am

ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:47 am
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am
I have no experience with Degiro so cannot help you there.
What I heard is tht DeGiro might be lending our your shares to others who will then short them.... there is a price for getting something for free.
They won't lend out your shares if you use the "custody account" option if I recall correctly.
Do you have access to the free ETFs with a custody account?
Are there any (still?) other differences in costs? Example: for dividend collection?
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

ignition
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by ignition » Thu May 17, 2018 11:46 am

BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am
ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:47 am
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am
I have no experience with Degiro so cannot help you there.
What I heard is tht DeGiro might be lending our your shares to others who will then short them.... there is a price for getting something for free.
They won't lend out your shares if you use the "custody account" option if I recall correctly.
Do you have access to the free ETFs with a custody account?
Are there any (still?) other differences in costs? Example: for dividend collection?
You have access to the free ones, but they will charge fees for dividend payouts.

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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by alpine_boglehead » Thu May 17, 2018 12:32 pm

ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:46 am
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am
ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:47 am
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am
I have no experience with Degiro so cannot help you there.
What I heard is tht DeGiro might be lending our your shares to others who will then short them.... there is a price for getting something for free.
They won't lend out your shares if you use the "custody account" option if I recall correctly.
Do you have access to the free ETFs with a custody account?
Are there any (still?) other differences in costs? Example: for dividend collection?
You have access to the free ones, but they will charge fees for dividend payouts.
Yes, for a custody account degiro charges 1€ + 3% of dividends, even for ETFs (I've asked them specifically that, because e.g. in Germany there's a broker that only charge fees on dividends for foreign stocks, but not ETFs). That shouldn't be a problem if you use accumulating ETFs like IWDA or EIMI. So, technically, you should be able to get your account for free. Which leaves me scratching my head how they make their money.

I've had a degiro custody account for a few years now, and I've got minor amount of a non-dividend-paying stock invested there. I won't invest a bigger amount there even the fees are some of the lowest, because I don't understand how they earn money ...

I haven't had any problem with degiro so far, the customer support via email (I've asked a few questions like the one above regarding ETF dividend fees) has been prompt and helpful.

One thing to consider is tax paperwork - e.g. here in Austria local banks and their attached brokers automatically do the tax paperwork for you, but degiro doesn't do this (it's not a bank), so when I eventually sell my stock I'll have to do the paperwork myself. Might be different in Belgium.

victor0nl1n3
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by victor0nl1n3 » Thu May 17, 2018 1:05 pm

imperia wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:50 am
Luxembourg just like Ireland has tax trity with USA and pay 15% on USA dividend.
Luxembourg does not tax dividend for non residents holding ucits etf.

As far as I know after Ireland Luxembourg is most common country for ETFs, and has same tax advatages like Ireland.
--> Very interesting! I had read this already - I think - somewhere on the internet. I disregarded it because everyone was mentioning Ireland and Ireland only. Your comment made me want to do more research.

On ETF.com, I found http://www.etf.com/sections/features-an ... nopaging=1 which mentions that Luxembourg has a much less favourable tax-treaty with the US and that US dividends for Luxembourg based funds will be taxed at 30%. It is worth mentioning that this article is dated 17 December 2015.
On the other hand, I also found this other article that states - in Article 10 - that US dividends will be taxed 15%. I have to say that this second source looks more reliable too

-->Could anybody confirm this and, ideally, give me a link to a reliable source so I can have max certitude?


For broker check IB Brokers

--> Interactive Brokers seems to be an industry standard, I see the name popping up everywhere. However, I see that the commission to buy an ETF on the Amsterdam market (which is the same price as most other European exchanges) is 0.1% of value with a minimum of 4€. It's not the end of the world but I'd rather not 12*4€ = 48€ annually in fees if I can avoid it. I appreciate the suggestion though and if I overlooked something please let me know!
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am
Some additional questions:
- Over time your different fund will perform differently. What is your rebalancing strategy?
--> I will invest monthly in the ETF which is the current furthest from my target allocation
- Do you have any other investments besides this?
--> None. I started my career 18 months ago. All I own in this world (or close) is the cash I have on my bank account (12k€)
- What will you use for the stable portion of your portfolio?
--> Nothing. I will add bonds in the future when I start moving towards the "wealth conservation stage".

==> Many thanks for your other answers. This is great info!
ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:35 am
As for now, I only invest in stocks as I'm still young and have a long investment horizon in front of me (although I don't plan to work until I'm 67 :P ). When I retire I'll probably move a small percentage to bonds, maybe 10-20%, to make withdrawals from when the stock market crashes. 100% stocks is of course not for everyone, you must be sure that you will stay the course when stocks crash and everyone is panicing.
--> That's the plan yeah! I would love to hear more about the financial decisions you are making. For instance are you committing to Tak/Branche 21 (I haven't done the math but it doesn't seem like a great deal to me). What's your take on renting vs buying real estate in Belgium?
If you have any other insights, I am all ears. Also feel free to PM me if you feel like having a more in depth conversation :-)
alpine_boglehead wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:32 pm
Yes, for a custody account degiro charges 1€ + 3% of dividends, even for ETFs (I've asked them specifically that, because e.g. in Germany there's a broker that only charge fees on dividends for foreign stocks, but not ETFs). That shouldn't be a problem if you use accumulating ETFs like IWDA or EIMI. So, technically, you should be able to get your account for free. Which leaves me scratching my head how they make their money.

--> Yeah I am in the same boat, I don't get it!

I've had a degiro custody account for a few years now, and I've got minor amount of a non-dividend-paying stock invested there. I won't invest a bigger amount there even the fees are some of the lowest, because I don't understand how they earn money ...

I haven't had any problem with degiro so far, the customer support via email (I've asked a few questions like the one above regarding ETF dividend fees) has been prompt and helpful.

One thing to consider is tax paperwork - e.g. here in Austria local banks and their attached brokers automatically do the tax paperwork for you, but degiro doesn't do this (it's not a bank), so when I eventually sell my stock I'll have to do the paperwork myself. Might be different in Belgium.
--> Hadn't thought about this. This is exactly the reason I come to this forum, to have people tell me this sort of stuff. Many thanks!

imperia
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by imperia » Thu May 17, 2018 1:31 pm

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Nonresi ... sion_table

On this page you can find list of all countrys with USA tax trity, and Estate tax treaty.

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BeBH65
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by BeBH65 » Thu May 17, 2018 2:30 pm

imperia wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:31 pm
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Nonresi ... sion_table

On this page you can find list of all countrys with USA tax trity, and Estate tax treaty.
This page on our wiki focusses on the tax treaties as they relate to individuals (natural persons).
Tax treaties often have special sections for investment funds, which are again different from "real" companies.

From this kpmg study on lux funds wht I learn that Lux funds pay 30% dividend WHT to the US (and also to Belgium incidently).
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

ignition
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by ignition » Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 pm

victor0nl1n3 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:05 pm
ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:35 am
As for now, I only invest in stocks as I'm still young and have a long investment horizon in front of me (although I don't plan to work until I'm 67 :P ). When I retire I'll probably move a small percentage to bonds, maybe 10-20%, to make withdrawals from when the stock market crashes. 100% stocks is of course not for everyone, you must be sure that you will stay the course when stocks crash and everyone is panicing.
--> That's the plan yeah! I would love to hear more about the financial decisions you are making. For instance are you committing to Tak/Branche 21 (I haven't done the math but it doesn't seem like a great deal to me). What's your take on renting vs buying real estate in Belgium?
If you have any other insights, I am all ears. Also feel free to PM me if you feel like having a more in depth conversation :-)
Nah, no tak21. That's just bankers/insurance companies taking your money and investing it themselves. Afterwards they take the profits, pay themselves a nice fee and then pay the rest to you if anything is left. Imo better to invest it yourself. Also, it's not separate from the bank's assets if I'm not mistaken, so better not invest more than 100K per bank.

If you're young it's best to save aggressively (compound interest, starting young, etc.) so I would try to "leech" of your parents as long as they endure you (which is what I'm doing :P) or find a friend to rent something cheaply. You can always buy a house later after you've settled down with someone. I think renting is the better deal in most cases in Belgium but it depends on the numbers. I've made a spreadsheet for myself to analyze renting vs buying based on various parameters.

You probably already know jlcollinsnh? He has a nice list here of what to do after college: http://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/06/04/my-pa ... -10-years/

Feel free to PM or post if you have other questions (not that I'm an expert...)

TedSwippet
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by TedSwippet » Thu May 17, 2018 2:45 pm

BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:30 pm
From this kpmg study on lux funds wht I learn that Lux funds pay 30% dividend WHT to the US ...
Thank you for posting this. I was looking for it earlier today in relation to this exact thread, but could not find it.

I have no reason to doubt KPMG here, but it does seem odd that nowhere else -- at least, not that I have found -- points out that Luxembourg appears to be a fair way behind Ireland when it come to tax efficiency on underlying US stocks. Perhaps nobody else but us and KPMG cares about this?

Anyway, the position of Luxembourg here seems like it might be a bit... er... confused, seems to be the take-home message. Shrug. The position of Ireland is at least clear, though.

Again then, thanks for digging out this paper.

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BeBH65
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by BeBH65 » Thu May 17, 2018 3:22 pm

ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:35 am
As for now, I only invest in stocks as I'm still young and have a long investment horizon in front of me (although I don't plan to work until I'm 67 :P ). When I retire I'll probably move a small percentage to bonds, maybe 10-20%, to make withdrawals from when the stock market crashes. 100% stocks is of course not for everyone, you must be sure that you will stay the course when stocks crash and everyone is panicing.
victor0nl1n3 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:05 pm
--> That's the plan yeah! I would love to hear more about the financial decisions you are making. For instance are you committing to Tak/Branche 21 (I haven't done the math but it doesn't seem like a great deal to me). What's your take on renting vs buying real estate in Belgium?
If you have any other insights, I am all ears. Also feel free to PM me if you feel like having a more in depth conversation :-)
ignition wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 pm
Nah, no tak21. That's just bankers/insurance companies taking your money and investing it themselves. Afterwards they take the profits, pay themselves a nice fee and then pay the rest to you if anything is left. Imo better to invest it yourself. Also, it's not separate from the bank's assets if I'm not mistaken, so better not invest more than 100K per bank.

If you're young it's best to save aggressively (compound interest, starting young, etc.) so I would try to "leech" of your parents as long as they endure you (which is what I'm doing :P) or find a friend to rent something cheaply. You can always buy a house later after you've settled down with someone. I think renting is the better deal in most cases in Belgium but it depends on the numbers. I've made a spreadsheet for myself to analyze renting vs buying based on various parameters.

You probably already know jlcollinsnh? He has a nice list here of what to do after college: http://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/06/04/my-pa ... -10-years/

Feel free to PM or post if you have other questions (not that I'm an expert...)
I agree that tax-21 life-insurance do not seem a good investement. Next to the insrance company wanting to make profit you have the government taking 2% of every "premium" (=investment).
If you do not like bond(funds) for your stable portion of your portfolio, then you should look at the high-yield savings account that some banks offer: MEdirect, DB, Beobank.

Have a look at these model-portfolio-allocations and take a decision how much stable assets you want. Although calculated for the US, the general ideas are valid anywhere. Having some stable assets will give you more chance to "stay the course" when stocks crash, and allow you to buy more stocks when they drop in value due to rebalancing. Also have a look at the arguments in the "100% equity" and "Why bonds" threads on this forum.

As a beginning investor make sure to read the wiki page on Bogleheads_investing_start-up_kit and ensure you are really ready to start investing: expenses under control? no debt? emergency fund?
The 16 page "if you can" document of Dr Bernstein is an excellent read for Millenials. ((As European you need to make abstractions of the references to US tax advantaged accounts.))
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

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BeBH65
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by BeBH65 » Thu May 17, 2018 3:40 pm

TedSwippet wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:45 pm
BeBH65 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:30 pm
From this kpmg study on lux funds wht I learn that Lux funds pay 30% dividend WHT to the US ...
Thank you for posting this. I was looking for it earlier today in relation to this exact thread, but could not find it.

I have no reason to doubt KPMG here, but it does seem odd that nowhere else -- at least, not that I have found -- points out that Luxembourg appears to be a fair way behind Ireland when it come to tax efficiency on underlying US stocks. Perhaps nobody else but us and KPMG cares about this?

Anyway, the position of Luxembourg here seems like it might be a bit... er... confused, seems to be the take-home message. Shrug. The position of Ireland is at least clear, though.

Again then, thanks for digging out this paper.
You are welcome.

I guess the desire of Luxemburg to remain a tax-haven(inside the EU!) leads to additional complications.
BeBH65. (only an investment enthusiast, not a financial adviser, perform your due diligence).

Mors
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by Mors » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:44 pm

Degiro also offers a cheap amundi emerging markets etf. It has an outdated ISIN number in its list though, the fund was merged with a newer.

This is it.

https://www.justetf.com/de-en/etf-profi ... 1681045453

That is the one Degiro has in its list.

https://www.justetf.com/de-en/etf-profi ... 0010959676

riskless
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Re: [Europe] [Belgium] Investing with DEGIRO

Post by riskless » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:51 am

victor0nl1n3 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:05 pm

For broker check IB Brokers

--> Interactive Brokers seems to be an industry standard, I see the name popping up everywhere. However, I see that the commission to buy an ETF on the Amsterdam market (which is the same price as most other European exchanges) is 0.1% of value with a minimum of 4€. It's not the end of the world but I'd rather not 12*4€ = 48€ annually in fees if I can avoid it. I appreciate the suggestion though and if I overlooked something please let me know!
Hi Victor,

Am rather late coming into this, and I guess you have already made your decision....

I would have wanted to deal with Interactive Brokers - industry standard, as you say - also a listed firm, and therefore subjected to the additional scrutiny that comes from being listed.

However, Europeans are obliged to deal with IB's UK entity. They will not let you open an account with any of their other legal entities. This presents two potential problems:
1) The unknown impact of Brexit (brought to my attention by BeBH65)
2) I had been earlier told that assets held in the UK by a UK custodian would be subject to UK inheritance tax, even if the holder is non-UK resident/non-UK domicile/non-UK national. However, in another forum post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=256446, I was told that there is an exception on unit trusts and funds domiciled in the UK, and that ETFs domiciled in Ireland would be considered situated in Ireland, hence not liable to UK inheritance tax. I haven't heard a definite opinion from a UK law firm, but this uncertainty (perhaps only in my mind) worries me.

I remember the debacle of MF Global in 2011 which went bankrupt after having to repeatedly (and illegally) dip into customer funds to meet their liquidity requirements. Do you think there are sufficient safeguards in the Dutch financial system to prevent something like this happening to DeGiro?

Also, did you do a comparison on fees / commissions / other charges between DeGiro, Interactive Brokers, and other brokers available to Belgians ? I'd be grateful to hear your conclusions.

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