In-laws financial advisor rip off

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Eric76
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:02 am

In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Eric76 »

Without going into too many unnecessary details, my in-laws are horrible with money. They lost almost all of their savings in a scam years ago. More recently they inherited some money. The estate attorney recommended his friend, a ML FA, to handle the inheritances (roughly 500k). The good news is that It's not a ponzi scheme. The bad news is that the guy is taking .25 PER MONTH (on top of whatever the mutual funds ERs are that I don't have the stomach to even look at). He put them in a whole slew of stocks and funds, probably overlapping positions, that will be a hassle to unwind.

Long term they will obviously be lucky to keep up with inflation after fees and taxes. My question is how do I get them out of there without getting overly involved. They need a lot of hand holding. My mother in law thinks she knows way more than she does. And I don't want any more drama in my life. TIA.
Cigarman
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Cigarman »

The best way to avoid any additional drama is TO NOT GET INVOLVED.

Even if your wife asks, you can politely reply "your parents need to ask for help or start reading Bogleheads.org, we don't need the extra drama/pressure that come's from trying to change their ways".

It's hard to do but you will sleep better.
david
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by david »

Eric76 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:25 am Without going into too many unnecessary details, my in-laws are horrible with money. They lost almost all of their savings in a scam years ago. More recently they inherited some money. The estate attorney recommended his friend, a ML FA, to handle the inheritances (roughly 500k). The good news is that It's not a ponzi scheme. The bad news is that the guy is taking .25 PER MONTH (on top of whatever the mutual funds ERs are that I don't have the stomach to even look at). He put them in a whole slew of stocks and funds, probably overlapping positions, that will be a hassle to unwind.

Long term they will obviously be lucky to keep up with inflation after fees and taxes. My question is how do I get them out of there without getting overly involved. They need a lot of hand holding. My mother in law thinks she knows way more than she does. And I don't want any more drama in my life. TIA.

Yikes! 3% a year is insane.
I don't think you can really get them out without getting overly involved. But then again, we may have different definitions. When we start mucking around in other people's money, I think we're pretty involved.

Now, I'd suggest by starting by explaining the 4% rule and that the income you can safety withdraw from a portfolio is approximately 4% a year. And that by paying the adviser 3% + other fees you are giving up all the safe income you can withdraw.

See how they react. If they want to move on from their advisor, suggest something like Vanguard's personal advisory service. If they need something more comprehensive, then you may have to interview advisers for them.

Good luck.
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Sheepdog
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Sheepdog »

Don't get involved directly is my advice. Rather than tell them they are doing things wrong (wouldn't that tend to put them on the defensive?), but during a general conversation some day, talk about how good you are doing...how good your funds and self management has been...how much money you are savings and earning by low expenses....how lucky you were to find the Bogleheads or whatever led you to low cost, high earning investing. Slyly bring it up the next time you are talking over dinner or having a beer over their backyard barbecue. They may be proud of you and may start to think why they are not doing so well.
Don't sell, tell. Let your examples become their good idea when they decide to change.
If that doesn't help, so be it, but don't stop bragging. Maybe some day they will get the idea....their idea
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pennywise
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by pennywise »

So your inlaws

1) don't handle their money well

2) believe (at least your MIL does) that they know all they need to know about handling their money

3) have not asked or indicated they want any advice from you on handling their money

4) will probably have a dramatic reaction if you attempt to advise them on how they should handle their money

All of which means that you

5) have utterly no stake in this situation because it is their money

6) have no reason whatsoever to try to intervene in how they handle their money

7) will almost certainly regret any ensuing drama if you ignore points 5) and 6)

You're welcome :wink:
student
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by student »

I thought ML fee is capped at 2.7% pa according to an article last year. https://www.wsj.com/articles/merrill-ly ... 1487891496
donaldfair71
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by donaldfair71 »

Two things:

1. This stinks because you obviously care about them and don't want them ripped off.

2. You can't say anything unless you are prepared to be rebuffed and can live with those consequences.

I think this is a pretty common thing here, for those of us who see through the cons and handle our own money with low cost investing tools. I have to screech through many a holiday dinner with my FIL, who I love dearly and is a good man, telling me how his new guy promises he can beat his old guy. I have to tread lightly when my SIL espouses the benefits of a permanent insurance policy. But it is what it is, and it's usually best to just nod and move along.
goblue100
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by goblue100 »

pennywise wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:31 am All of which means that you

5) have utterly no stake in this situation because it is their money

6) have no reason whatsoever to try to intervene in how they handle their money

7) will almost certainly regret any ensuing drama if you ignore points 5) and 6)

You're welcome :wink:
The thing is, I've had issues with my own in-laws. 5 and 6 are not true. If the in-laws lose all of their money, or need any kind of help, who do you think they are going to look to? The old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies here. I'd certainly at a minimum take david's advice from this thread, and explain why a .25% a month fee may not sound like much but is in fact onerous. Find some good resources that show the effect of a 3% fee. Here is a good one:
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html
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JoeRetire
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by JoeRetire »

Eric76 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:25 amLong term they will obviously be lucky to keep up with inflation after fees and taxes. My question is how do I get them out of there without getting overly involved.
Unless they specifically ask for your assistance - you shouldn't get involved at all.

You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.
They need a lot of hand holding. My mother in law thinks she knows way more than she does. And I don't want any more drama in my life.
There's no need for you to incur any drama. Stay out of it unless invited in.
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Topic Author
Eric76
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Eric76 »

student wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:41 am I thought ML fee is capped at 2.7% pa according to an article last year. https://www.wsj.com/articles/merrill-ly ... 1487891496
This is interesting. I saw their February statement and it showed .25 was the advisory fee and year to date was .49. I figured that meant .25 was taken every month.
Topic Author
Eric76
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Eric76 »

goblue100 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:07 am
pennywise wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:31 am All of which means that you

5) have utterly no stake in this situation because it is their money

6) have no reason whatsoever to try to intervene in how they handle their money

7) will almost certainly regret any ensuing drama if you ignore points 5) and 6)

You're welcome :wink:
The thing is, I've had issues with my own in-laws. 5 and 6 are not true. If the in-laws lose all of their money, or need any kind of help, who do you think they are going to look to? The old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies here. I'd certainly at a minimum take david's advice from this thread, and explain why a .25% a month fee may not sound like much but is in fact onerous. Find some good resources that show the effect of a 3% fee. Here is a good one:
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html
This. My motives are in part selfish.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by RickBoglehead »

I'd second the "don't get involved".

My in-law's moved funds 35 years ago from a company stock plan (that was being bought out) to Merrill Lynch, whose guidance was being provided "free" by the company. 4.5% front loaded funds. Several years later, they didn't like the investments and moved to a different firm, with front loaded funds. I think they may have done it once more.

I took over the investments around 2000 and moved everything to Vanguard. They stayed out of it. Eventually I took over all their bills. They spent nearly 4 years each in assisted living, paid for by their funds that I managed.

I told them, as I told my mother, "if you don't want us involved, then don't think you can come to us when you blow all your money".

You have zero responsibility to rescue someone that does it to themselves and knows they are. Zero.
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goingup
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by goingup »

Your in-laws could do better than to use ML, but at least they won't lose it all to a scam. Big picture. Fees are the small leak, but your in-laws self-managing the portfolio would likely crash it on the rocks.
ThePrince
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by ThePrince »

goblue100 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:07 am
pennywise wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:31 am All of which means that you

5) have utterly no stake in this situation because it is their money

6) have no reason whatsoever to try to intervene in how they handle their money

7) will almost certainly regret any ensuing drama if you ignore points 5) and 6)

You're welcome :wink:
The thing is, I've had issues with my own in-laws. 5 and 6 are not true. If the in-laws lose all of their money, or need any kind of help, who do you think they are going to look to? The old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies here. I'd certainly at a minimum take david's advice from this thread, and explain why a .25% a month fee may not sound like much but is in fact onerous. Find some good resources that show the effect of a 3% fee. Here is a good one:
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html
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cherijoh
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by cherijoh »

Eric76 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:25 am Without going into too many unnecessary details, my in-laws are horrible with money. They lost almost all of their savings in a scam years ago. More recently they inherited some money. The estate attorney recommended his friend, a ML FA, to handle the inheritances (roughly 500k). The good news is that It's not a ponzi scheme. The bad news is that the guy is taking .25 PER MONTH (on top of whatever the mutual funds ERs are that I don't have the stomach to even look at). He put them in a whole slew of stocks and funds, probably overlapping positions, that will be a hassle to unwind.

Long term they will obviously be lucky to keep up with inflation after fees and taxes. My question is how do I get them out of there without getting overly involved. They need a lot of hand holding. My mother in law thinks she knows way more than she does. And I don't want any more drama in my life. TIA.
Vanguard charges 0.3% per year for their PAS. Not as much hand-holding - I think it is all over the phone, but it would help to keep you out of the middle. Although it would be wise to figure out if the funds they have are on VG's no fee list.
whomever
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by whomever »

Your in-laws could do better than to use ML, but at least they won't lose it all to a scam. Big picture. Fees are the small leak, but your in-laws self-managing the portfolio would likely crash it on the rocks.
That's true enough, but 4% is a fairly big leak over time. 0.96**20 = 0.44. That's more than half of the principal gone, over a relatively short retirement. Even at 2.7% over 40% of your nest egg vanishes over 20 years. I still take your point - one could lose more than that with a few bad decisions - but those fees aren't small.


OP: one possibility might be to search out a more reasonable adviser - a bricks-n-mortar one who will only charge 1%, or one of the services that's cheaper than that. Then you could mention that you heard about this great FA who only charges 1%. And 0.99**20 = 0.82, which costs them 18% of the balance over time, instead of 56%.
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goingup
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by goingup »

whomever wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:25 am
Your in-laws could do better than to use ML, but at least they won't lose it all to a scam. Big picture. Fees are the small leak, but your in-laws self-managing the portfolio would likely crash it on the rocks.
That's true enough, but 4% is a fairly big leak over time. 0.96**20 = 0.44. That's more than half of the principal gone, over a relatively short retirement. Even at 2.7% over 40% of your nest egg vanishes over 20 years. I still take your point - one could lose more than that with a few bad decisions - but those fees aren't small.


OP: one possibility might be to search out a more reasonable adviser - a bricks-n-mortar one who will only charge 1%, or one of the services that's cheaper than that. Then you could mention that you heard about this great FA who only charges 1%. And 0.99**20 = 0.82, which costs them 18% of the balance over time, instead of 56%.
I don't think ML is charging 4%. I haven't looked up their fee schedule, but it's likely less than 2%.
DarkHelmetII
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by DarkHelmetII »

One approach to consider (realizing I have far from all of the particulars in your situation): some how inject principle of fiduciary vs. non-fiduciary responsibility such that your in-laws naturally come to the conclusion that "hey, probably makes sense to have somebody help us who is a fiduciary." Given the circumstances, sounds like almost anyone legally contracted as a fiduciary would be a better situation.

Again, just my 2 cents as OP understands the situation the best.
deltaneutral83
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Don't get confrontational, ask them "Is the ML adviser is going to let you use his beach house one weekend a year since you paid for it"
KSActuary
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by KSActuary »

First, where did the 0.25% per month come from? Sounds high to me given who it is.

Second, just tell straight out they are getting taken and get it off your chest.
FoolMeOnce
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by FoolMeOnce »

ThePrince wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:58 am
goblue100 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:07 am
pennywise wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:31 am All of which means that you

5) have utterly no stake in this situation because it is their money

6) have no reason whatsoever to try to intervene in how they handle their money

7) will almost certainly regret any ensuing drama if you ignore points 5) and 6)

You're welcome :wink:
The thing is, I've had issues with my own in-laws. 5 and 6 are not true. If the in-laws lose all of their money, or need any kind of help, who do you think they are going to look to? The old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies here. I'd certainly at a minimum take david's advice from this thread, and explain why a .25% a month fee may not sound like much but is in fact onerous. Find some good resources that show the effect of a 3% fee. Here is a good one:
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html
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Pajamas
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Pajamas »

Why don't you offer to be their financial advisor at no charge to them? 8-)
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9-5 Suited
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by 9-5 Suited »

The only issue with the advice not to get involved (which I generally agree with) is that it’s reasonably likely family members like this will ruin their savings and then come asking for handouts later. So in those cases, whether or not one gets involved in the discussion is just a matter of time.

OP, I would get on the same page with your spouse on this. Make sure she knows your feelings and that you don’t have interest in supporting the in-laws if they waste their savings. See how she reacts. If she is not resolute and in agreement, then you need a communication strategy before the inevitable happens.
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BL
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by BL »

How to Make Your Money Last
or
Making the most of your money
by Jane Bryant Quinn. She has an occasional article in AARP magazine and has written helpful columns for ages.

Have the books on your coffee table or give it to them. Read first so you know and agree with them. Great easy to read books that they might browse as needed for particular topics. The book version of Dr. Bernstein's book, If You Can, is a nice little book to have laying around or give them.

Most folks I know don't want to hear numerical proof of anything; their minds go blank.
Giving facts in ways that make sense is not as easy as it should be. There are all kinds of emotional and mental roadblocks in the way.
delamer
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by delamer »

How did you come to know the details of the inheritance and how it is being invested? Did they come to you for an opinion or were they bragging about “their guy?”

Does your wife want you to get involved?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Sagefemme
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Sagefemme »

Easy to imagine the fee is 0.25% per quarter, for 1% per year. When I had a FA that's how they billed the fees, quarterly.
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greg24
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by greg24 »

Eric76 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 amI saw their February statement and it showed .25 was the advisory fee and year to date was .49. I figured that meant .25 was taken every month.
You shouldn't leap to conclusions from looking at one statement.
DetroitRick
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by DetroitRick »

I've been there as well. Similar situation to yours, with 3 differences - no prior scam loss, my in-laws did not think they knew much about investing at all, and they (and my wife) begged me for a year to handle it all. Bottom line, highly individual decision, and one that can't be made well without looking at the whole picture. If you are literal about not wanting drama, given all that you've said I would probably stay hands off.

I ran into a number of things that sort of shaped my role in my own version of this decision/process. My in-laws were under extreme pressure from FA to invest more. They were losing money in a bull market without reason. They had no option to do nothing. Plus they were convinced money was being stolen and they were torn up about it. Pressure for me to get involved was constant. So I did, and it worked out fine. But there was some drama for a while, given that I took over these accounts in November 2007. You know what happened in the market soon after... But after one year of hand-holding it all settled into a routine. They remained very aware (and I reminded them) that all their prior efforts to invest failed (wrong advisor, wrong portfolio, extreme costs, bought high/sold low, etc). Now, just MIL, rarely has questions, never has issues and is comfortable with performance.

I'm glad I did it. But each case is different. Plus you have to factor in your own time, knowledge, and marital dynamics.
cutehumor
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by cutehumor »

OP,

stay out of your in-laws financial matters. I know you want to protect them, but there is nothing you can do. I know my in laws see a Raymond James advisor for over 30 years, so I know the feeling.
pennywise
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by pennywise »

Eric76 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:22 am
The thing is, I've had issues with my own in-laws. 5 and 6 are not true. If the in-laws lose all of their money, or need any kind of help, who do you think they are going to look to? The old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies here. I'd certainly at a minimum take david's advice from this thread, and explain why a .25% a month fee may not sound like much but is in fact onerous. Find some good resources that show the effect of a 3% fee. Here is a good one:
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html
I"m standing by my advice, because the inlaws almost certainly will NOT be amenable to being 'advised' by a SIL about a topic on which they do not think they need advice and about which they are convinced they know best. So whether or not there's a self-protective aspect of wanting to control what seems to be a looming disaster, there is no control possible here and only the near certainty of causing what OP explicitly states he does not want: drama.

As for being on the hook, that's a very personal family issue but the reality is that the inlaws have no authority to compel anyone to fund their lives-it's up to the offspring (daughter and SIL) to make it clear they cannot support them if and when they blow through their money.

Because just as the in laws control their money so do the children control theirs.
Captain kangaroo
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Captain kangaroo »

They could be doing a lot worse then ML.

Contrary to boglehead beliefs, I honestly don't think everyone is suited to manage their own money. If they're the type to panic sell during a downturn, dump all their money into "dividend stocks" and don't understand tax implications.. The 1% fee will be worth it for all the possible headaches that may come with your in laws attempting to go it alone. They aren't getting scammed and it isn't Edward Jones.. So I think they will be okay
cautious
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by cautious »

You are in a tough situation. I can understand your concerns about having to foot the bill down the road. You can only approach this using patience.

First, you have to have your wife on board. You can do that with specifics costs - pencil them out using your investment vs.theirs for a specific holding. Keep it simple. Back off and give her time to digest it. Don't ask her to intervene - but understand that she might anyway.

Second, let them describe their accomplishments, returns etc. as though you are seeking their advice. Listen without being critical but ask the occasional question of how much the advisor or fund gets of that. And then let them mull on that for awhile. Don't offer comparisons with yours unless they ask. In essence what you are doing is having them slowly begin to focus on their actual costs.

If they show interest in your investments don't overwhelm them with a total makeover. Hopefully they will make changes incrementally. But it has to be their insights not your suggestions.

This is painstakingly slow but it's better than not trying. At some point when they are aware of what percent they are paying, you might suggest they consult VG. It may be easier for them to accept another advisor than their SIL. Any change has to be their idea not yours.

But always keep in mind their need to have you see them as knowledgable and successful seniors.
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by Sandtrap »

Perhaps all you can do is this: (seed planting)

You to spouse: "By the way . . . did you know that your parent's FI is costing them XXXX dollars per year?"

Spouse: "Really?"

You: "Yup. That's not bad at all. But Vanguard VPAS can so the same job for XXXX dollars less which would help your parent's a lot. . . . . you can share that with them if they're ever interested in that stuff."

Spouse: "Okay. We'll see. I'll think about it."

You: "You want to go out to eat tonight?"

j :D
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StevieG72
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by StevieG72 »

Cigarman wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:46 am The best way to avoid any additional drama is TO NOT GET INVOLVED.

Even if your wife asks, you can politely reply "your parents need to ask for help or start reading Bogleheads.org, we don't need the extra drama/pressure that come's from trying to change their ways".

It's hard to do but you will sleep better.
No good deed goes unpunished.

I prefer to stay out of family members finances. One reason is to avoid the assumption by anyone that I am interested in getting my hands on their money. Another reason is to avoid being blamed for any and all market turbulance.

I have a friend that asked his brother in law ( financial advisor / insurance salesmen) to invest $10,000 prior to the 2008 turmoil. He sold at the bottom and blames his loss on the brother in law.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
gator15
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by gator15 »

Would help if I thought their bad money management skills could lead to them being broke in the future. While it’s not your problem now it could be in the future if they need financial assistance from you. I would probably get ahead of their problem now before it becomes your problem in the future.
renue74
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Re: In-laws financial advisor rip off

Post by renue74 »

Any time I've suggested financial changes to friends or family, it's fallen on deaf ears. I've stopped trying.
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