Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

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Beach
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Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Beach »

My wife's grandparents have come to us and asked for our help to manage $300K they just received from the sale of their 2nd home. They are a bit careless when it comes to spending and tend to blow money rather easily so have asked for our help to manage it (For instance, we talked them out of buying a boat which they would have never used). We want to help them protect the amount, show some growth but be pretty conservative with it. We were considering putting about $50K into some sort of Vanguard fund and the rest maybe CD laddering so all of it is still liquid in an emergency but tied just enough to prevent them from making any rash purchases.

I should know this before I post, however I believe they are receiving enough income from other sources where this money shouldn't need to be touched. Their primary home is paid off in pull and don't have any other major liabilities (car payments, etc). They are mid 70's and in pretty good health.

Can we get some ideas on what you would do?

Thanks!
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mhadden1
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by mhadden1 »

If the investments go down, the grandparents won't like it. Even if they say they understand. Be very careful about this kind of help.
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Dottie57
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Dottie57 »

I think you plan is fine. I would make it a short CD ladder since rates may be rising. I might put 100K into conservative LifeStrategy fund.

That's it.
k3vb0t
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by k3vb0t »

You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
rebellovw
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by rebellovw »

k3vb0t wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:30 am You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
Exactly. Perhaps they can buy a boat if they are completely covered. Why talk them out of something they want if they have the money to do so. You don't know how they would use it.

They should be enjoying these last few years.
dbr
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by dbr »

Aside from the point that no good deed will go unpunished, the right thing would seem to be that an overall plan for their financial situation needs to be known and this is part of it.

Failing that, just simply locking everything up in CDs makes some sense. I don't think you should go anywhere near stock or bond funds without a more comprehensive plan everyone understands. Make sure at least some of the money is redeemable early or laddered at short terms.
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

S.P.I.A.
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dbr
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by dbr »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:43 am S.P.I.A.
An SPIA is one possibility for spendthrift protection, but I think the suggestion is premature without further understanding of the situation. Normally an SPIA is purchased as longevity insurance and would need to be understood in the context of the larger plan. It could make sense or it could be a bad idea.
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Beach
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Beach »

k3vb0t wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:30 am You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
It would be fair to say it is a bit of both
k3vb0t
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by k3vb0t »

Beach wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:01 am
k3vb0t wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:30 am You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
It would be fair to say it is a bit of both
Not to nitpick, but is that your opinion or theirs? Critical difference.

If that is their opinion, I'd think you are looking more for capital preservation and keeping up with inflation. You could put half into a CD ladder to cover the emergency portion, and the other half into something else. I'm not 100% sure how I-Bonds work with being passed on to heirs, but that would guarantee capital preservation and fight inflation. I'm sure others will have better suggestions.
delamer
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by delamer »

dbr wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:43 am Aside from the point that no good deed will go unpunished, the right thing would seem to be that an overall plan for their financial situation needs to be known and this is part of it.

Failing that, just simply locking everything up in CDs makes some sense. I don't think you should go anywhere near stock or bond funds without a more comprehensive plan everyone understands. Make sure at least some of the money is redeemable early or laddered at short terms.

Agreed. At a minimum, you need to know what other investments/savings that they have.

I’d seriously consider giving them 3 options — more conservative, mixed, more aggressive — and let them choose one based on their comfort level.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
alex_686
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by alex_686 »

First, write up a ISP. It is foolish to suggest a asset allocation without talking about Grandparents risk tolerance and goals. Maybe 100% CDs is what they need, to meet minimum required retirement spending goals. Maybe 100% equities if it is to pay for unconceived grandchildren's college education in 25 years.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
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Beach
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Beach »

Just a little bit more info, thanks for the responses thus far. The grandparents have other investment vehicles where they do not feel they need to touch this money (the specifics I don't know, we haven't asked). They want this money specifically geared towards inheritance for siblings and grand siblings. Our plan would be to manage it and do just that. We can discuss nursing care costs at a much later date if it ever came to that.
rebellovw wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:40 am
k3vb0t wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:30 am You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
Exactly. Perhaps they can buy a boat if they are completely covered. Why talk them out of something they want if they have the money to do so. You don't know how they would use it.

They should be enjoying these last few years.


As far as talking them out of a boat, they have always been able to out earn their poor money decisions, but now they don't want to work anymore and have asked us to challenge them before they make big decisions like buying a boat so they don't spend all of the money they have planned for inheritances. They have seen how we manage our money, live within our means, seen our disciplined budgeting and it seems to have rubbed off on them. Basically, they've asked us to be their accountability partner for big money decisions which is something we feel honored to help them with.
dbr
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by dbr »

Beach wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:26 pm Just a little bit more info, thanks for the responses thus far. The grandparents have other investment vehicles where they do not feel they need to touch this money (the specifics I don't know, we haven't asked). They want this money specifically geared towards inheritance for siblings and grand siblings. Our plan would be to manage it and do just that. We can discuss nursing care costs at a much later date if it ever came to that.
In that case the discussion turns on understanding risky investing and how return and risk trade off. Examples of risky investing would be to put everything in stocks, such as Total Stock Market or Buffet's favorite S&P 500. You have to discuss if you want international exposure. Along the same line an aggressive balanced fund such as Vanguard LifeStrategy Growth fund might be a choice. There are people who go the opposite direction and invest legacies in the least risky possible investment because they don't care about growth but want certainty.

But before picking investments there needs to be a conversation about objectives and risk that is brought down to numbers.

A different discussion is what are the legal arrangements in the wills and trusts department to actually direct this money as intended.
jpsc
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by jpsc »

since your grandparents are retire, they should just invest in some target income fund
Vanguard and Fidelity has those - the target income fund yield is around 5%, so they should buy that
and get a yearly 5% dividend or $15K a year.

A note - Vanguard Target Retirement Income Trust Plus seems like it is a private corporate 401K (in my corp 401k plan)
the consumer grade only return 2% or so
inbox788
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by inbox788 »

Beach wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:26 pmThey want this money specifically geared towards inheritance for siblings and grand siblings. Our plan would be to manage it and do just that.
For the grand siblings, a 529 plan invested in equities should be considered. But realistically, a lot more needs to be known about their situation and wishes to figure out how to invest the funds, distribute the funds now, after the passing of one or both. A tax advantaged plan like 529 allows the gains to be spent while they're alive. For the siblings, a taxable account with step up basis upon their passing may be the most advantageous.
As far as talking them out of a boat, they have always been able to out earn their poor money decisions, but now they don't want to work anymore and have asked us to challenge them before they make big decisions like buying a boat so they don't spend all of the money they have planned for inheritances. They have seen how we manage our money, live within our means, seen our disciplined budgeting and it seems to have rubbed off on them. Basically, they've asked us to be their accountability partner for big money decisions which is something we feel honored to help them with.
If the understanding is that this is to be an inheritance, then invest it like it's an inheritance using AA appropriate to the recipient. Also, consider doing the transfer now or in trust, so as not to have to worry about distribution issues down the road. This way, their wishes are followed while they're involved rather than leave a mess behind that could be subject to contest.

Some folks suggest a book "Beyond the grave" by Condon that deals with some of these issues. I took a look and it's quite an old book, and didn't read enough of it to understand why it's so well recommended, but it's on my list of books to take another look in the future.

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... +the+grave
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by whodidntante »

First, I would get power of attorney in case someone in that branch of your family tree decides they don't like what you did.

I would put it all in a single brokerage account at a major discount broker so you have good options available. A rather short treasury ladder, maybe just T-bills and 2 year notes. The term premium might actually be negative right now so you can go longer if the environment changes. Carve out a slice and do 50/50 US/International equities. I would do 30/70 stocks/bonds. That portfolio has a good chance to beat inflation and will be resistant to monster nominal draw downs. It would take awful conditions to make it drop 25%. If you want something a bit more aggressive than that, consider the Larry portfolio, which I completely ripped off and knee capped with my suggestion.
https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/larry-portfolio/
MTF
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by MTF »

Why shouldn’t the grandparents buy a boat/why should they be talked out of it? I assume they’ve worked all of their lives for what they have and, if they were contemplating such a purchase, are well enough off to do so. What is the point of investing the funds unless they need those funds for their own financial security? I’m all for responsible investing, for the future, but there is a lot to be said for spending the money they have accumulated over a lifetime on things they enjoy, rather than investing those funds for no other reason than the next generation. That kind of mentality derives from circumstances of great fortune, which has been passed down throughout generations, and should be passed down to the next. The guidance on this forum has been invaluable to me, but there is far too much emphasis for my taste on dying with a lot of money.
Last edited by MTF on Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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burt
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by burt »

Beach wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:26 pm Just a little bit more info, thanks for the responses thus far. The grandparents have other investment vehicles where they do not feel they need to touch this money (the specifics I don't know, we haven't asked). They want this money specifically geared towards inheritance for siblings and grand siblings. Our plan would be to manage it and do just that. We can discuss nursing care costs at a much later date if it ever came to that.
rebellovw wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:40 am
k3vb0t wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:30 am You mention it doesn't need to be touched, but what is the purpose of the money? To pass on to heirs? To have in case their health fails and they need to move into assisted living?

The purpose should dictate the investment.
Exactly. Perhaps they can buy a boat if they are completely covered. Why talk them out of something they want if they have the money to do so. You don't know how they would use it.

They should be enjoying these last few years.


As far as talking them out of a boat, they have always been able to out earn their poor money decisions, but now they don't want to work anymore and have asked us to challenge them before they make big decisions like buying a boat so they don't spend all of the money they have planned for inheritances. They have seen how we manage our money, live within our means, seen our disciplined budgeting and it seems to have rubbed off on them. Basically, they've asked us to be their accountability partner for big money decisions which is something we feel honored to help them with.

Regarding: "they have always been able to out earn their poor money decisions"
For some reason I picked up on the above phrase. I find it rather humorous.
A boat that won't be used v.s. inheritance.... that's a tough one.

edit:
I had a vision of a struggling young family going to visit the grandparents on a Sunday afternoon.
As they approach the house in their rusted old car they notice the nice boat sitting in the driveway and wonder why the boat has never seen water.
:wink:

burt
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by msk »

One can complicate these things ad nauseam. DW and myself are at mid 70s and our investment portfolio is mainly for heirs, just like the $300k mentioned. Our portfolio is orders of magnitude larger, but we got there by taking risks along the way. We are now 100% stocks worldwide. VT is excellent IMHO. Explain the ups and downs of stocks, and also the gains/losses/risks. They can withdraw 5% of the portfolio p.a. and the remainder should keep up with inflation, forever. $300k real terms. No withdrawal, then growth follows, in real terms, on average. If stocks make them uneasy, even though it's an inconsequential part of their retirement plan, then you can complicate things... I would offer "simple" first.
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by RickBoglehead »

If, in fact, the $300,000 will NEVER be needed by the Grandparents, and is solely for the benefit of the heirs, it should be invested as such, i.e. tied to the timing and risk profiles of the heirs. However, I found one word that stood out for me - SHOULDN'T. Shouldn't is different than WON'T. If there is a chance it will be needed by the grandparents, then the investments should be much more conservative.

We have 529s that were for our kids with significant remaining funds (because one had 2 years of out of state, 2 years of in-state when we moved, and the other had all in-state, saving considerable funds). Neither of them has any idea that the funds are remaining, and we don't plan on revealing it until such time as either has a child, since this is for college. Neither is yet married, no grandchildren exist. We have evenly split the remaining funds between the two accounts, and have them invested in VIIIX, which seemed to be the best investment we saw in the Utah plan for funds needed 18+ years from now. Based on a 10 year return of over 9%, we expect the funds to be able to pay for at least 4 college educations in full 18+ years from now.
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by pkcrafter »

Beach, it sounds like your wife's grandparents received this 300k from a sale and they've marked it for inheritance. In addition, they really don't want to have to managed it, so they have brought their daughter and son-in-law into management. That's fine, but it's still their money, which could turn out to be a problem. Are your names going to be on the account? Will you have power of attorney?

If not, you will have to remember it is their money and you should help manage in a way they might do themselves. I think all you can do is make suggestions that are in line with their wishes and their best interest.


Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
Mom 2 Groms
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Mom 2 Groms »

Hello! I'm Beach's wife and I have an update.

Good News - They bought a boat, and are very excited about it. We're happy for them.

Bad News - They've been going to "Financial Seminars" :oops: I had no idea people set these things up to take advantage of old people. They really are a target market for people with less than stellar integrity. Their new advisor wants them to invest in an annuity, and I have concerns. This annuity doesn't have monthly premiums, or a monthly payout - only a death benefit from the paperwork that I saw. It sounds like a life insurance policy, but without the defined benefit. The death benefit is contingent on the market rates. To people who don't know what they are looking at, this opportunity looks great - because the paperwork shows that they are getting 8% returns and it seems risk free.

My grandparents want me to call this guy and ask him questions to make sure that I'm comfortable with this option. What are some good questions to ask?
My short list:
-What is the guaranteed return on the annuity? (is it risk free, or can the death benefit decrease past the original investment)
-What fees are involved to deflate the market returns?
-What makes this annuity different than a life insurance policy - other than the variable death benefit?

Thank you all for helping us to navigate this wisely!
CedarWaxWing
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by CedarWaxWing »

viewtopic.php?t=183555

The above link discusses a book by Jane Bryant Quinn "How to Make Your Money Last".
The books is very pertinent to retirement planning and harvesting.
The section on annuities is also very good, including suggestions as to how to make an intelligent decision on whether an annuity may or may not be appropriate for someone in retirement.

IF an annuity is needed/appropriate it is very likely that that so called FA (actually a salesman) is NOT the right conduit for getting an annuity. You already suspect he is preying on elderly folks, and you are likely correct. There are better ways to purchase an annuity if doing so makes sense.

1. It may be smart to not make a decision in a pressured environment, but to sit back and not make any big long term decisions that are hard to reverse later.

2. Read that book, at least the section on annuities Pg 124-159 is VERY good. Do so BEFORE talking to the sales guy. Then read the entire book.

3. Read this link: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall on how to manage a windfall.

4. If they don't need the money for at least a year, consider a 6-12 month CD to temporize until you and your spouse have had more time to do some more reading, and consider whether the grandparents can or will also do some reading in regards to how to manage their money. They sound like easy prey, and if you help them out, they and you will be better off it all four of you read pertinent things. (I realize that they may not wish to read anything, and may simply prefer to have you take charge.)
dbr
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by dbr »

Mom 2 Groms wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:43 pm Hello! I'm Beach's wife and I have an update.

Good News - They bought a boat, and are very excited about it. We're happy for them.

Bad News - They've been going to "Financial Seminars" :oops: I had no idea people set these things up to take advantage of old people. They really are a target market for people with less than stellar integrity. Their new advisor wants them to invest in an annuity, and I have concerns. This annuity doesn't have monthly premiums, or a monthly payout - only a death benefit from the paperwork that I saw. It sounds like a life insurance policy, but without the defined benefit. The death benefit is contingent on the market rates. To people who don't know what they are looking at, this opportunity looks great - because the paperwork shows that they are getting 8% returns and it seems risk free.

My grandparents want me to call this guy and ask him questions to make sure that I'm comfortable with this option. What are some good questions to ask?
My short list:
-What is the guaranteed return on the annuity? (is it risk free, or can the death benefit decrease past the original investment)
-What fees are involved to deflate the market returns?
-What makes this annuity different than a life insurance policy - other than the variable death benefit?

Thank you all for helping us to navigate this wisely!
In general the only answer to this is to run and have no contact with these people. They are professional salesmen who are very good at what they do and you will have no chance with your questions. The more you ask the better they will do making you look like a fool and their product looking better and better. Their jobs depend on it.

The point is that we all already know your grandparents should not be buying this annuity so there is nothing to find out about it.
delamer
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by delamer »

dbr wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:16 pm
Mom 2 Groms wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:43 pm Hello! I'm Beach's wife and I have an update.

Good News - They bought a boat, and are very excited about it. We're happy for them.

Bad News - They've been going to "Financial Seminars" :oops: I had no idea people set these things up to take advantage of old people. They really are a target market for people with less than stellar integrity. Their new advisor wants them to invest in an annuity, and I have concerns. This annuity doesn't have monthly premiums, or a monthly payout - only a death benefit from the paperwork that I saw. It sounds like a life insurance policy, but without the defined benefit. The death benefit is contingent on the market rates. To people who don't know what they are looking at, this opportunity looks great - because the paperwork shows that they are getting 8% returns and it seems risk free.

My grandparents want me to call this guy and ask him questions to make sure that I'm comfortable with this option. What are some good questions to ask?
My short list:
-What is the guaranteed return on the annuity? (is it risk free, or can the death benefit decrease past the original investment)
-What fees are involved to deflate the market returns?
-What makes this annuity different than a life insurance policy - other than the variable death benefit?

Thank you all for helping us to navigate this wisely!
In general the only answer to this is to run and have no contact with these people. They are professional salesmen who are very good at what they do and you will have no chance with your questions. The more you ask the better they will do making you look like a fool and their product looking better and better. Their jobs depend on it.

The point is that we all already know your grandparents should not be buying this annuity so there is nothing to find out about it.
Agreed. You know you are not comfortable with this product, so have any further contact with this guy?

Tell your grandparents that you researched annuities and that this type is not in their best interest at their age.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
startwithtruth
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by startwithtruth »

CedarWaxWing wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:06 pm viewtopic.php?t=183555

The above link discusses a book by Jane Bryant Quinn "How to Make Your Money Last".
The books is very pertinent to retirement planning and harvesting.
The section on annuities is also very good, including suggestions as to how to make an intelligent decision on whether an annuity may or may not be appropriate for someone in retirement.

2. Read that book, at least the section on annuities Pg 124-159 is VERY good. Do so BEFORE talking to the sales guy. Then read the entire book.
+1 on Jane Bryant Quinn's chapter on annuities - she lays out all the complexity and deception around the sales of complicated annuities (excluding SPIAs of course), including the summary: "It's a snakepit down there". When I finished this chapter, I texted my family: "If you know anyone who's tempted to buy one, they should read this chapter first :shock: "

Here's an interview with her:
https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2016/02/23 ... 0521190959
Mom 2 Groms
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by Mom 2 Groms »

Thanks all!

2 copies of the book are on order now.

I have to call the guy.. but thanks for the warning on how he should react. I've decided to change my approach and ask some softball questions, and then go back to my grandparents and tell them that I talked with him, and I'm not comfortable with his plan. I'll also point out that he is a sales person, and not an advisor, so he has no fiduciary responsibility to them.
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mhadden1
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by mhadden1 »

Mom 2 Groms wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:48 pm tell them that I talked with him, and I'm not comfortable with his plan. I'll also point out that he is a sales person, and not an advisor, so he has no fiduciary responsibility to them.
Excellent response! Completely truthful and accurate. Good luck steering away from the terrible annuity product.
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nasrullah
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Re: Grandparents requested our help to manage $300K

Post by nasrullah »

From experience - don't mix money and family.

Vanguard PAS will serve both of your interests well.
Doing nothing is doing something.
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