How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

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nasrullah
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How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 pm

Emergency funds: $50k Ally Savings @ 1.45%
Debt: Primary Residence 30 year fixed 3.65%. Investment property 30 year fixed 4.675% (rented with positive cash flow).
Tax Filing Status: Married Filing Jointly, 1 Child
Tax Rate: 33% Federal, 10.3% State
State of Residence: California
Age: 38
Desired Asset allocation: 75% Stocks / 25% Bonds
Desired International allocation: Unsure

Current portfolio $651k

I couldn't figure out how to format directly into this post, here's a link to a Google Sheet with all of the details:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

It was extremely painful transferring into Vanguard. Comments about their [lack of] customer service are definitely not overstated. Now that I have a complete picture of holdings consolidated I'm trying to figure out what the next steps are. I currently have $148,983.44 of unrealized capital gains across 124 different holdings ($75,591.50 from FB).

My goal was to get to a three fund portfolio. Liquidating everything feels impractical both from a cost of trades, and a taxable gains perspective. There are a few losses in here, but nothing spectacular to offset anything significant.

Running through different scenarios has me feeling pretty defeated - and I'm wondering if it would just be better to move the taxable all back to Wealthfront.

What would you do in my shoes?
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

NightFall
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by NightFall » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:49 pm

I see 125 different holdings in taxable. Just as a clarification, did Wealthfront do this to you?

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 pm

The FB is me from years ago - everything else is Wealthfront.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

123
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by 123 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 pm

As I see it your biggest risk position is Facebook. If you liquidate that you've taken care of half of your capital gains issue. Would you buy more Facebook at today's price? If not why hold what you have?

Edited to add:
I wasn't aware that Wealthfront did individual stocks but after looking at their website I see that they have a feature called "Direct Indexing" that picks selected stocks from an index for tax loss harvesting potential purposes. I can now see how that can tremendously complicate a portfolio, sounds good but it seems like it would tend to lock people into Wealthfront to keep track of what was going on, they've automated a trick they picked up that was developed by financial advisers years ago. It makes things more complicated.

I would probably sell all individual stock positions since the market is still high, and just be glad you get to pay some capital gains tax instead of carrying forward a lot of losses. After you've cleared out the individual stock issues address your ETFs and how you want to consolidate those. Taxes are painful but losses are even more so. Be grateful.
Last edited by 123 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Badger1754
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Badger1754 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:53 pm

Can I ask why you moved out of Wealthfront?
Am a bit paranoid myself as my money is all in there - but I simply don't have the patience/time to do manual rebalancing/TLH.

ResearchMed
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 pm

NightFall wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:49 pm
I see 125 different holdings in taxable. Just as a clarification, did Wealthfront do this to you?
Ouch.

Who would purchase 2-digit (or even 3-digit) individual stocks, unless that was "everything they had" and wouldn't get more $ for some time?

Were there charges for making these purchases??

RM
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nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Wealthfront only charges the 0.25% management fees on the total account. Individual trades are not charged a fee.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

livesoft
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:00 pm

The stock market is still open for another hour, so start selling something now and buying the replacement. If you do 5 stocks a day, then you can calculate how long it will take you.
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Noobvestor
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Noobvestor » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:01 pm

Well ... huh. I didn't know Wealthfront or any of the robos traded individual stocks. Was that your choice? Painful, regardless.

Here's what I'd recommend, or do myself, more or less in order:

1) Hold anything with short-term gains long enough for them to become long-term gains

2) Assess your future tax expectations - if you plan to leave CA or be in a lower tax bracket, consider waiting to cash things in

3) Sell individual stock holdings (keeping 1 and 2 in mind) - if you have carry-forward losses, this might help

4) Maybe sell the Dividend Appreciation and Energy sector funds/ETFs because of tax efficiency and turnover

5) Probably hold the rest of the funds/ETFs indefinitely as they're more tax-efficient and to avoid realizing gains

6) Try to avoid rebalancing in taxable, and rebalance only in tax-advantaged or with new money to hit your total portfolio targets

7) Plan to tax-gain harvest down the line to simplify in taxable when you're eventually in a lower bracket (e.g. after retirement, pre-RMD)

8) If we do have a crash in the near future, and some of the funds/ETFs dip significantly, consider switching out of them at that point
Last edited by Noobvestor on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ResearchMed
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:04 pm

I'm guessing they must have something like model portfolios, and each of many investors is invested proportionally in that particular portfolio?

Otherwise... !??

RM
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nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:05 pm

123 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 pm
As I see it your biggest risk position is Facebook. If you liquidate that you've taken care of half of your capital gains issue. Would you buy more Facebook at today's price? If not why hold what you have?
Do I think it's a good stock and the value will increase... yes. Would I buy it now, no because I know better than to have this concentrated of a position in one company.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:06 pm

Badger1754 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:53 pm
Can I ask why you moved out of Wealthfront?
Am a bit paranoid myself as my money is all in there - but I simply don't have the patience/time to do manual rebalancing/TLH.
Efficient placement of funds across accounts, reduction of fees, avoiding more of this mess down the road.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

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Noobvestor
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Noobvestor » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:07 pm

Something else to consider: use the Vanguard 'Portfolio Watch' tool set to see what your actual current breakdowns are for stocks/bonds, US/international, etc... it will help you keep track of the big picture as you try to wind down these individual holdings.
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm

Noobvestor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:01 pm
Well ... huh. I didn't know Wealthfront or any of the robos traded individual stocks. Was that your choice? Painful, regardless.

Here's what I'd recommend, or do myself, more or less in order:

1) Hold anything with short-term gains long enough for them to become long-term gains

2) Assess your future tax expectations - if you plan to leave CA or be in a lower tax bracket, consider waiting to cash things in

3) Sell individual stock holdings (keeping 1 and 2 in mind) - if you have carry-forward losses, this might help

4) Maybe sell the Dividend Appreciation and Energy sector funds/ETFs because of tax efficiency and turnover

5) Probably hold the rest of the funds/ETFs indefinitely as they're more tax-efficient and to avoid realizing gains

6) Try to avoid rebalancing in taxable, and rebalance only in tax-advantaged or with new money to hit your total portfolio targets

7) Plan to tax-gain harvest down the line to simplify in taxable when you're eventually in a lower bracket (e.g. after retirement, pre-RMD)
1. Agreed
2. Not leaving CA or lowering tax bracket in the foreseeable future.
3/4. Good brokerage options with cheap trading? This is definitely not a Vanguard play.
5/6. Makes sense.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm

Noobvestor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:07 pm
Something else to consider: use the Vanguard 'Portfolio Watch' tool set to see what your actual current breakdowns are for stocks/bonds, US/international, etc... it will help you keep track of the big picture as you try to wind down these individual holdings.
I had Wealthfront set to approximate a 75/25 holding in each account. It's not far off.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

TIAX
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by TIAX » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:14 pm

nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm
Noobvestor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:01 pm
Well ... huh. I didn't know Wealthfront or any of the robos traded individual stocks. Was that your choice? Painful, regardless.

Here's what I'd recommend, or do myself, more or less in order:

1) Hold anything with short-term gains long enough for them to become long-term gains

2) Assess your future tax expectations - if you plan to leave CA or be in a lower tax bracket, consider waiting to cash things in

3) Sell individual stock holdings (keeping 1 and 2 in mind) - if you have carry-forward losses, this might help

4) Maybe sell the Dividend Appreciation and Energy sector funds/ETFs because of tax efficiency and turnover

5) Probably hold the rest of the funds/ETFs indefinitely as they're more tax-efficient and to avoid realizing gains

6) Try to avoid rebalancing in taxable, and rebalance only in tax-advantaged or with new money to hit your total portfolio targets

7) Plan to tax-gain harvest down the line to simplify in taxable when you're eventually in a lower bracket (e.g. after retirement, pre-RMD)
1. Agreed
2. Not leaving CA or lowering tax bracket in the foreseeable future.
3/4. Good brokerage options with cheap trading? This is definitely not a Vanguard play.
5/6. Makes sense.
3/4 - Note that, assuming you're voyager select (500k-1M), trades at Vanguard would be $2.

jacoavlu
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by jacoavlu » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:17 pm

if you're concerned about trading fees you could transfer your account to Etrade where they're usually running a promotion that will give you free trades for 60 days or something, plus a cash bonus depending on the size of your account. There may be other brokerages that do this as well.

Given the size of your holdings though, you probably get $2 trades from Vanguard. At that point I personally wouldn't think it worth the hassle of another transfer.

livesoft
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:18 pm

TIAX wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:14 pm
3/4 - Note that, assuming you're voyager select (500k-1M), trades at Vanguard would be $2.
That's $500K and more in Vanguard products. Non Vanguard products don't count.

Plenty of places offer bonuses and free trades for this situation.
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nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:22 pm

TIAX wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:14 pm
nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm
Noobvestor wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:01 pm
Well ... huh. I didn't know Wealthfront or any of the robos traded individual stocks. Was that your choice? Painful, regardless.

Here's what I'd recommend, or do myself, more or less in order:

1) Hold anything with short-term gains long enough for them to become long-term gains

2) Assess your future tax expectations - if you plan to leave CA or be in a lower tax bracket, consider waiting to cash things in

3) Sell individual stock holdings (keeping 1 and 2 in mind) - if you have carry-forward losses, this might help

4) Maybe sell the Dividend Appreciation and Energy sector funds/ETFs because of tax efficiency and turnover

5) Probably hold the rest of the funds/ETFs indefinitely as they're more tax-efficient and to avoid realizing gains

6) Try to avoid rebalancing in taxable, and rebalance only in tax-advantaged or with new money to hit your total portfolio targets

7) Plan to tax-gain harvest down the line to simplify in taxable when you're eventually in a lower bracket (e.g. after retirement, pre-RMD)
1. Agreed
2. Not leaving CA or lowering tax bracket in the foreseeable future.
3/4. Good brokerage options with cheap trading? This is definitely not a Vanguard play.
5/6. Makes sense.
3/4 - Note that, assuming you're voyager select (500k-1M), trades at Vanguard would be $2.
Vanguard rep just told me on the phone I need to have $500k+ invested in their funds for this to be the case. I'll call the Voyager line, this would change some things for me.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

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LiveSimple
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by LiveSimple » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm

Take a day off, or an afternoon off, sell all individual stocks, except may be FB, as it has appreciated much.

Then invest in index fund, and call it a day.

If you do not want the best price, you can always sell at market price or a few cents near market price.

What are you seeking help for.

You helped me feel comfortable, as I have a few index funds, now looking at your portfolio, I am fine with the number of funds, I have.
It amazed to see how you can have an $700 K portfolio by investing $300 in individual stocks

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:43 pm

LiveSimple wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm
Take a day off, or an afternoon off, sell all individual stocks, except may be FB, as it has appreciated much.

Then invest in index fund, and call it a day.

If you do not want the best price, you can always sell at market price or a few cents near market price.

What are you seeking help for.

You helped me feel comfortable, as I have a few index funds, now looking at your portfolio, I am fine with the number of funds, I have.
It amazed to see how you can have an $700 K portfolio by investing $300 in individual stocks
Do you really think taking $150k in cap gains is the best plan?
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

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LiveSimple
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by LiveSimple » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:47 pm

nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:43 pm
LiveSimple wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:23 pm
Take a day off, or an afternoon off, sell all individual stocks, except may be FB, as it has appreciated much.

Then invest in index fund, and call it a day.

If you do not want the best price, you can always sell at market price or a few cents near market price.

What are you seeking help for.

You helped me feel comfortable, as I have a few index funds, now looking at your portfolio, I am fine with the number of funds, I have.
It amazed to see how you can have an $700 K portfolio by investing $300 in individual stocks
Do you really think taking $150k in cap gains is the best plan?
i left FB, so it is 75 K cap gains. Calculate the taxes. Somewhere you do need to do something.
Else leave as is an move all new money into index funds, if it does not bother you.

I assume it is bothering you, and only then asking for suggestions.

Think for a week, analyze all the suggestions made here and decide what is good for you.

With a $700 K portfolio, I do not want any one index fund to be less than at a minimum $100 K.

There are 107 individual stocks with a market value less than, $2000; that totals to $50 K

The capital gain for these 107 individual stocks are at $10 K. how much tax will that cost you, less than $3 K

In the long run, you never know how many Enrons , GM, Kodak, are in the individual stocks, so this $3 K, may be the best lesson.
Also if you followed the three fund portfolio, with a tilt to whatever you deem fit, may be the best for the next 45 - 60 years.

How long you are going to look at this potpourri of stocks. Again, if this do not bother, do nothing.
Last edited by LiveSimple on Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

livesoft
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:54 pm

It looks like Vanguard ETFs have quite few of the gains (maybe $35,000 of gains?), so if you keep those and ignore FB for a little while, the problem is really not that bad at all.

And that's not even counting the losses from today's market that will add to the other losses.

So just get crackin' since this doesn't seem to be such a big deal anymore.
Last edited by livesoft on Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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renue74
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by renue74 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:54 pm

It amazes me that folks have portfolios like this in taxable accounts and buck the suggestions of others when it comes to capital gains/paying taxes on their earnings to unwind positions. There aren't that many options to do what you're looking for.

"Wait, I made tons of money on stocks, but now I've seen the light and want to index, how can I move all those earnings tax free into index funds?"

If you have a real concerns, you can always sell in your taxable account and donate to charity to offset your tax burden.

ksualum
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by ksualum » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:55 pm

You could also consider donating some of your FB shares to a charity if you have a charity you normally donate too. Then it becomes a tax write off. However, I do not know how the new tax laws have changed things for 2018 tax year . . . .

wolf359
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by wolf359 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:59 pm

Having the individual stocks is roughly like holding the S&P 500 index, plus Facebook. That's exactly what Wealthfront was trying to replicate. You could just hold onto them, and consider them collectively the equivalent of that index. They're already bought, and it doesn't cost anything to continue to hold them. Redirect any dividends into index funds. The Facebook stock should be sold if you don't want the individual stock risk, but that's a separate decision.

When you eventually have a reason to sell something from your portfolio, sell the individual stocks first.

That reason could be: 1) You're tax loss harvesting; 2) You've retired or need to sell something to raise money.

There is absolutely no reason to incur more costs. The mess is made, but it doesn't cost anything to leave it that way. The only reason to go back is to pay their costs so that they can TLH for you.

...

Yes, when I was a kid, I did try to convince my Mom that the dust was a protective coating for the furniture in my room. Why do you ask? :happy

stimulacra
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by stimulacra » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 pm

I'd leave everything… make sure you set dividends to cash versus reinvest and use the cash to build your 3-fund portfolio over time.

Sell your losers every year for TLH.

I might sell off Facebook to eliminate risk.

Over 5-10 years this should unwind organically I hope. Sell off anything that might run the risk of being delisted. I have a few individual tickers that are essentially worthless that lingers in my taxable.

Veritas Simplex
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Veritas Simplex » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:20 pm

You can also stop reinvesting dividends on any of the individual stocks you decide to retain.

nasrullah
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:29 pm

renue74 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:54 pm
It amazes me that folks have portfolios like this in taxable accounts and buck the suggestions of others when it comes to capital gains/paying taxes on their earnings to unwind positions. There aren't that many options to do what you're looking for.

"Wait, I made tons of money on stocks, but now I've seen the light and want to index, how can I move all those earnings tax free into index funds?"

If you have a real concerns, you can always sell in your taxable account and donate to charity to offset your tax burden.
First off, I didn't create this portfolio/mess. I'm trying to unwind it.

Second, because I'm in this mess doesn't mean I want to rush to create a bigger one.

So I'm soliciting advice on how to approach this without doing something dumb.
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

inbox788
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by inbox788 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm

nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 pm
It was extremely painful transferring into Vanguard. Comments about their [lack of] customer service are definitely not overstated. Now that I have a complete picture of holdings consolidated I'm trying to figure out what the next steps are. I currently have $148,983.44 of unrealized capital gains across 124 different holdings ($75,591.50 from FB).

My goal was to get to a three fund portfolio. Liquidating everything feels impractical both from a cost of trades, and a taxable gains perspective. There are a few losses in here, but nothing spectacular to offset anything significant.

Running through different scenarios has me feeling pretty defeated - and I'm wondering if it would just be better to move the taxable all back to Wealthfront.

What would you do in my shoes?
You transferred in kind 124 individual stocks from Wealthfront to Vanguard? And you got all the original cost basis dates and amounts correctly? ACAT?
Wow! Where you charged any transaction fees?

First off, you have over $600k at vanguard, right? So that puts you at Voyager Select with $2 trades. Do you have any free trades or bonuses to use up?

Don't stress. You've got so many individual holdings that you're adequately diversified for now. And your holdings don't seem to have excessive EF from what I have seen. There might be a coupe of higher ones you might be eager to liquidate sooner, but trade off paying capital gains taxes on them.

Aside from FB, you've got over 1K long term gains on AMZN, AAPL and MSFT. And almost that much on BOA.

Anyway, if you keep these listed below, and liquidate the rest, you'll only incur about $3k in short term and 5k in long term gains in total. You would pay about $200 in commissions (or you can wait for lower omissions when you make Flagship) You can TLH and get rid of about 80% by sorting by short term gains/losses and going down the list and selling anything with less than $100 in short term gains or any short term losses (and no significant long term gains -- skip GOOG, BOA, BA, etc. -- maybe use a $100 or $200 threshold -- long term gains might only be $1-3k). Your portfolio would be much simpler quickly. And you can slowly eliminate other individual holdings and non-diversified funds when you tax rate is less.

Anyway, once you have fewer balls to juggle, it's easier to figure out how to best diversify and heads towards a 3-fund portfolio. In any case, as long as you keep putting all the cash into a diversified 3 fund portfolio, you'll keep approaching the ideal goal, and the non-diversified portion of you portfolio will become a relatively smaller and smaller problem. You don't need to rush there immediately or get there 100% right away. If you're 50% there soon, that's a great goal. And maybe 80% in a 3 years. Just keep on the important aspects, which is low fee and diversified.

Code: Select all

	FACEBOOK INC CL A	FB	$10,936.47	$86,578.86	$50.89	$75,591.50																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	AMAZON.COM INC	AMZN	$1,536.48	$2,965.96	$0.00	$1,429.48																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	APPLE INC	AAPL	$2,931.05	$4,171.92	$56.95	$1,183.92																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	MICROSOFT CORP	MSFT	$1,762.16	$2,788.50	$0.00	$1,026.34																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF	VWO	$23,985.00	$32,576.62	$113.29	$8,478.33																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD SMALL CAP ETF	VB	$22,267.67	$26,739.56	$479.60	$3,992.29																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	SCHWAB INTL EQUITY ETF	SCHF	$46,968.16	$58,952.86	$453.93	$11,530.77																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	ISHARES CORE MSCI EMERGING MARKETS ETF	IEMG	$32,476.78	$47,318.00	$487.44	$14,353.78																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD EXTENDED MARKET ETF	VXF	$26,292.20	$30,419.33	$582.94	$3,544.19																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD ENERGY ETF	VDE	$23,133.66	$24,460.11	$1,326.45	$0.00																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	SCHWAB U S DIVIDEND EQUITY ETF	SCHD	$11,973.78	$14,940.79	$263.88	$2,703.13																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD DIVIDEND APPRECIATION ETF	VIG	$13,592.92	$16,768.62	$0.00	$3,175.70																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF	VEA	$14,404.28	$17,696.37	$0.00	$3,292.09																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF	VTI	$40,315.37	$53,446.07	$0.00	$13,130.70																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									

User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nisiprius » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 pm

I still don't understand how you ended up with 124 holdings at Wealthfront. I've peeked at their suggested portfolios, and I was under the impression that a typical Wealthfront portfolio consisted of seven or eight ETFs, and mostly Vanguard ETFs at that.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

livesoft
Posts: 62246
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by livesoft » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 pm

Wealthfront has a "Direct Indexing" product: https://research.wealthfront.com/whitep ... -indexing/

Some of the OP's positions seem to be one single share. If the OP pays a commission to sell, then the commission will eat up a huge percentage of the single share holdings.

Wealthfront should offer a "Unwind this Mess" product for clients who wish to unwind their Wealthfront mess.
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nasrullah
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:40 am

Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:55 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm
First off, you have over $600k at vanguard, right? So that puts you at Voyager Select with $2 trades. Do you have any free trades or bonuses to use up? \
I'd have to hold $500k with Vanguard funds for the Voyager Select. Just got off the phone with Vanguard, they're trying to get me an exception since the trading will result in the threshold being met.
inbox788 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:31 pm

Don't stress. You've got so many individual holdings that you're adequately diversified for now. And your holdings don't seem to have excessive EF from what I have seen. There might be a coupe of higher ones you might be eager to liquidate sooner, but trade off paying capital gains taxes on them.

Aside from FB, you've got over 1K long term gains on AMZN, AAPL and MSFT. And almost that much on BOA.

Anyway, if you keep these listed below, and liquidate the rest, you'll only incur about $3k in short term and 5k in long term gains in total. You would pay about $200 in commissions (or you can wait for lower omissions when you make Flagship) You can TLH and get rid of about 80% by sorting by short term gains/losses and going down the list and selling anything with less than $100 in short term gains or any short term losses (and no significant long term gains -- skip GOOG, BOA, BA, etc. -- maybe use a $100 or $200 threshold -- long term gains might only be $1-3k). Your portfolio would be much simpler quickly. And you can slowly eliminate other individual holdings and non-diversified funds when you tax rate is less.

Anyway, once you have fewer balls to juggle, it's easier to figure out how to best diversify and heads towards a 3-fund portfolio. In any case, as long as you keep putting all the cash into a diversified 3 fund portfolio, you'll keep approaching the ideal goal, and the non-diversified portion of you portfolio will become a relatively smaller and smaller problem. You don't need to rush there immediately or get there 100% right away. If you're 50% there soon, that's a great goal. And maybe 80% in a 3 years. Just keep on the important aspects, which is low fee and diversified.

Code: Select all

	FACEBOOK INC CL A	FB	$10,936.47	$86,578.86	$50.89	$75,591.50																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	AMAZON.COM INC	AMZN	$1,536.48	$2,965.96	$0.00	$1,429.48																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	APPLE INC	AAPL	$2,931.05	$4,171.92	$56.95	$1,183.92																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	MICROSOFT CORP	MSFT	$1,762.16	$2,788.50	$0.00	$1,026.34																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF	VWO	$23,985.00	$32,576.62	$113.29	$8,478.33																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD SMALL CAP ETF	VB	$22,267.67	$26,739.56	$479.60	$3,992.29																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	SCHWAB INTL EQUITY ETF	SCHF	$46,968.16	$58,952.86	$453.93	$11,530.77																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	ISHARES CORE MSCI EMERGING MARKETS ETF	IEMG	$32,476.78	$47,318.00	$487.44	$14,353.78																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD EXTENDED MARKET ETF	VXF	$26,292.20	$30,419.33	$582.94	$3,544.19																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD ENERGY ETF	VDE	$23,133.66	$24,460.11	$1,326.45	$0.00																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	SCHWAB U S DIVIDEND EQUITY ETF	SCHD	$11,973.78	$14,940.79	$263.88	$2,703.13																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																															
	VANGUARD DIVIDEND APPRECIATION ETF	VIG	$13,592.92	$16,768.62	$0.00	$3,175.70																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF	VEA	$14,404.28	$17,696.37	$0.00	$3,292.09																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
	VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF	VTI	$40,315.37	$53,446.07	$0.00	$13,130.70																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																																									
Thank you - this excellent advise. Based on this I just did what I should have originally... resorted the holdings by actual gain/loss. It's much, much more manageable in this way.

Regarding FB, I've read advice to not keep more than 5% in a single company stock. That's a pretty significant sell off. Is there advice on timing this over multiple quarters, or just pull the trigger and do it all at once?
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

nasrullah
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:40 am

Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:55 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 pm
Wealthfront should offer a "Unwind this Mess" product for clients who wish to unwind their Wealthfront mess.
:)
"We have a lot to do, and very little time, so we must work slowly." Liviu Ciulei | | Thanks vineviz (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=134698) for the quote.

retiredjg
Posts: 33521
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:56 pm

Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by retiredjg » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:56 pm

First, I'd ask Vanguard if they will give you some free trades so you can get out of the mess and buy their index funds. Specify that you are tying to move to their index funds. It might help. You are a new customer. It can't hurt to ask. It might have been better to ask before the transfer actually occurred.

Next, turn off reinvestment of all dividends and cap gains distributions. Do this no matter which route you decide to take. Send the earnings to a money market fund and periodically buy Total Stock Market with it. And Total International.

You might consider keeping the mess until there is a major market downturn and get rid of it then.

I wonder if you enrolled in the Vanguard PAS and asked them to change this to a 3 fund portfolio if you would have to pay trades? Might be worth finding out.

You have about $2k in losses you could sell and apply against about $2k of FB gains. It's a small start, but if you do this every time the market takes a drop, it might eat away at some of the gains. The bulk of the gains will probably have to wait until a major market correction or until you are willing to pay some taxes to get what you want.

When you say 33% tax bracket, that seems to be last year. You are likely in a lower bracket now. The things to watch for are not going over $479k in taxable income (where LTCG tax goes up to 20%), wherever the AMT starts (I think it is higher than before) and where the 3.8% Medicare surtax which I believe is $200k for singles and $250k for a couple.

Captain kangaroo
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:45 am

Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Captain kangaroo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:19 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 pm
I still don't understand how you ended up with 124 holdings at Wealthfront. I've peeked at their suggested portfolios, and I was under the impression that a typical Wealthfront portfolio consisted of seven or eight ETFs, and mostly Vanguard ETFs at that.
Advanced indexing..
It replicates the index using actual stocks. Makes tax loss harvesting a lot easier. Unfortunately it just becomes a really deep rabbit hole with so many transactions.

inbox788
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by inbox788 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:24 pm

nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:55 pm
Regarding FB, I've read advice to not keep more than 5% in a single company stock. That's a pretty significant sell off. Is there advice on timing this over multiple quarters, or just pull the trigger and do it all at once?
That's good advice, but I often ignore good advice, and I'm probably more aggressive than average in my investments. With that in mind, I'd be inclined to keep FB because most of it is subject to capital gains tax. After taxes, it's only about 10% of your portfolio, and if it just keeps up with the market, and you keep making additional contributions, that percentage should fall (and if FB outperforms the market, that percentage might grow, but hat's a good kind of problem to have). And if it should fall behind the market, that's the risk you take. If FB goes to zero, I'm sure you won't be happy, but I'm guessing you'd survive just fine.

Anyway, if you choose to follow the advice, and take half or all off the table, that's fine too, and it might help you sleep better. Especially if you hear any bad news about Facebook or Zuckerburg, and you can ignore it as just noise as far as what it does to your portfolio.

As someone mentioned, if you have the inclination to make donations, the gains in FB make it the perfect candidate to do so. I have a few FB shares I was planning on donating, but the new itemization rules have thrown a monkey wrench in the plans.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by bert09 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:26 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 pm
Wealthfront has a "Direct Indexing" product: https://research.wealthfront.com/whitep ... -indexing/

Some of the OP's positions seem to be one single share. If the OP pays a commission to sell, then the commission will eat up a huge percentage of the single share holdings.

Wealthfront should offer a "Unwind this Mess" product for clients who wish to unwind their Wealthfront mess.
I think if you turn off Direct Indexing, they will gradually put your individual stocks back into the ETFs.
https://support.wealthfront.com/hc/en-u ... -Indexing-

This is probably good to keep in mind for anyone making a transfer in the future.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Rob5TCP » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:35 pm

Can you do a LIFO stock withdrawal -- and only sell the shares with the least appreciation
while retaining older shares that might have the most. As long as they are over 1 year old
the Federal, at least, would be at your long term capital gains rate. State will be the rate
regardless of whether it's short or long term (at least NY is).

This might help minimize some of the tax you would owe.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by jminv » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:53 pm

I would sell all the losers and use the losses to offset some of the gains.

Right up to schwab us dividend etf on that spreadsheet, you have $13714 in gains vs losses. I'd sell and pay long term capital gains. I cut it off before this since you probably want to keep the etfs after that.

Maybe for FB you bought at different dates and can use a tax optimization selling strategy to sell some and keep some if that's what you want.

Then rebalance into whatever your preferred portfolio is.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by diy60 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:59 pm

Similar to some of the above suggestions, I would keep the ETFs and FB, sell the rest. This would result in about $13K of gains. This would eliminate about 100+ holdings. Consider it a small price to pay for simplicity. Good luck.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nisiprius » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:59 pm

bert09 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:26 pm
...I think if you turn off Direct Indexing, they will gradually put your individual stocks back into the ETFs.
https://support.wealthfront.com/hc/en-u ... -Indexing-
"I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that"
If you previously had Direct Indexing and Advanced Indexing enabled and then disable it, we’ll sell your individual stocks and reinvest in index funds
And the bad news is that
This may incur taxable gains and decrease your expected return for the account. We recommend you consult a tax advisor before disabling Direct Indexing and Advanced Indexing.
Note that
Advanced Indexing is included as part of PassivePlus®, our investment strategy, applied to your account at no additional charge. We recommend it for most clients.
In short... it is a fairly brutal lock-in. 124 lines on Schedule D?
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Whakamole » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:11 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:59 pm
In short... it is a fairly brutal lock-in. 124 lines on Schedule D?
Maybe you can just put "various" in the "what securities did I sell" line.

I've heard some similar stories, to a much lesser extent, when others have moved out of services that provide this kind of automated TLH strategy. A computer can handle 124 securities without an issue, humans not so much, and it may not be easy to find another robo that will take your holdings.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Finridge » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:48 am

nasrullah wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 pm


Running through different scenarios has me feeling pretty defeated - and I'm wondering if it would just be better to move the taxable all back to Wealthfront.

What would you do in my shoes?
I am a longtime proponent of Vanguard and the 3 fund portfolio approach. But if something like this landed in my lap, I'd sell all the positions that have losses. I'd then look at what positions I can sell that would be offset by the losses in this taxable year. All funds from sales would be reinvested in a 3 fund portfolio.

I'd sell the Facebook stock and put in indexes. Too much concentration of risk there. Yes, there will be a tax hit, but in my opinion it's worth taking. I'd reinvest the proceeds into a 3 fund portfolio.

I'd keep the Vanguard funds at Vanguard, but I'd seriously consider moving a lot of the portfolio back to Wealthfront and keeping it, at least temporarily, there, but with direct indexing turned off. As it gradually shifts into ETFs, you can move that to Vanguard.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Tamarind » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:49 am

Whakamole wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:11 pm
nisiprius wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:59 pm
In short... it is a fairly brutal lock-in. 124 lines on Schedule D?
Maybe you can just put "various" in the "what securities did I sell" line.

I've heard some similar stories, to a much lesser extent, when others have moved out of services that provide this kind of automated TLH strategy. A computer can handle 124 securities without an issue, humans not so much, and it may not be easy to find another robo that will take your holdings.
I'd put down various and enclose a spreadsheet with the details. I did this even when I only had one more holding to report than lines on the D. No issues.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Tamarind » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:56 am

It's probably worth unwinding the FB this year if the gains would be LTCG though the final decision has to be yours, OP. If you are hesitant, consider whether you think there's no chance of Facebook dropping more than 15% before the time when you are imagining selling it.

That single step that should cost you relatively little in commissions compared to your holding even at Vanguard, and the gains will likely be taxed lower than your earned income.

OP doesn't have a time machine, but for anyone reading this from the future, my advice would be to simplify the portfolio while it was at WealthFront so that only Vanguard products and cash are transferred.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by nasrullah » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:41 am

Tamarind wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:56 am
OP doesn't have a time machine, but for anyone reading this from the future, my advice would be to simplify the portfolio while it was at WealthFront so that only Vanguard products and cash are transferred.
Wealthfront doesn't have a mechanism for this. You can uncheck the direct indexing & advanced indexing knobs, but they can't answer what would actually happen after you do this. Do all of the individual stocks get sold immediately? Do they sell the losses immediately? How does the weighting of the portfolio adjust going forward?

I don't think this is a scenario that they are concerned with. It's counter to their entire premise and marketing to customers.
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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by Tamarind » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:12 am

nasrullah wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:41 am
Tamarind wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:56 am
OP doesn't have a time machine, but for anyone reading this from the future, my advice would be to simplify the portfolio while it was at WealthFront so that only Vanguard products and cash are transferred.
Wealthfront doesn't have a mechanism for this. You can uncheck the direct indexing & advanced indexing knobs, but they can't answer what would actually happen after you do this. Do all of the individual stocks get sold immediately? Do they sell the losses immediately? How does the weighting of the portfolio adjust going forward?

I don't think this is a scenario that they are concerned with. It's counter to their entire premise and marketing to customers.
Can you really not make manual transactions at all in Wealthfront, or manually edit the portfolio weighting for new contributions separately from existing balance? Huh. That does not sound like a tool I would recommend anyone to use. Sorry for your predicament, OP.

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by TIAX » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:50 am

wolf359 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:59 pm
Having the individual stocks is roughly like holding the S&P 500 index, plus Facebook. That's exactly what Wealthfront was trying to replicate.
What about index sampling risk?

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Re: How do I unwind this Wealthfront mess?

Post by wolf359 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm

TIAX wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:50 am
wolf359 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:59 pm
Having the individual stocks is roughly like holding the S&P 500 index, plus Facebook. That's exactly what Wealthfront was trying to replicate.
What about index sampling risk?
That risk is the same whether he goes back to wealthfront or stays at Vanguard.

The sampling risk may or may not appear. If OP cashes everything out now, the tax gain taxes and commissions are guaranteed to appear.

If a general market crash occurs, OP may have a chance to tax loss harvest everything and move to index funds all at once. Absent that, it's better to stay put and keep costs at zero until an opportunity arises to cash out. Don't incur certain costs to avoid uncertain opportunity costs.

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