Does anyone not rebalance?

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am
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Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by am » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm

I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Stonebr » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:49 pm

As I recall, Jack Bogle does not rebalance.

But I do.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by saltycaper » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:54 pm

If you're not rebalancing because you want a different AA than what you originally selected, that makes sense, because there's no reason to go back to the old AA.

Otherwise it does not make sense to not rebalance, because that means you have an AA other than the one you want.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by trav867 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:56 pm

You could rebalance with new money.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Regressor » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:18 pm

I wouldn't rebalance only if all these conditions are met: I don't have 401k and I have only short term gains(no loses) and all of my long term gains are high. In that case I'd try to rebalance with new money. I can imagine that some people are in that situation right now considering the market returns recently.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by thx1138 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:31 pm

When I was younger I was 100/0 for about 15 years or so. So no rebalancing I guess...

Why did you set your original AA? Has something changed? Are you actually less risk adverse now than when you set your AA?

Your AA certainly doesn't need to be set in stone. A common behavioral error is to think one is willing to take on more risk after long periods of not being exposed to adverse events - like after a long bull market. So use caution when changing your AA.

To me though 5-10% is not hugely out of whack. Many have at least a 5% rebalancing band.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by GerryL » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:37 pm

My AA is a little out of whack, so I've been nudging it back by not reinvesting dividends in my stock funds but using them to buy more shares in bonds.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by aristotelian » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:42 pm

You could determine your bond allocation quantitatively (e.g. X number of years expenses) rather than by %. Once you hit your target amount, let your stock allocation ride. I would be comfortable with that as an investment policy.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by CyclingDuo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:51 pm

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
Crowd pouring into bond funds at a ratio of nearly 16 to 1 over equities. Does this mark the "buy at highs in bonds" as the bond market falls into a bear market after 35 years of a bond bull market?

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by tooluser » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:04 pm

Somewhere along the line I started a 90%/10% total US stock market/international growth stock portfolio from a newsletter/radio guy recommendation. I have not rebalanced in 20 years, nor have I added new money except for dividend reinvestment, because it never got so far out of whack that I felt the need to do so. It is about 10% of my total portfolio, and I do re-balance the whole extended macrocosm to meet all of my allocation goals. Easy to do while adding new money.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by sperry8 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:06 am

I stopped rebalancing after reading that annual rebalancing didn't move returns. It's also a way of capturing the momentum factor imo.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by DecumulatorDoc » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:20 am

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
Lot's of folk are emboldened by all time market highs and seem to adjust their risk tolerance higher. Stick to your IPS. Always better to rebalance on your own (buy low, sell high) than to have a bear market do it for you.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:56 am

sperry8 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:06 am
I stopped rebalancing after reading that annual rebalancing didn't move returns. It's also a way of capturing the momentum factor imo.

Rebalancing is for risk control not for increasing returns? Does the academic literatures support this?

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Jags4186 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:02 am

You will have better expected performance by not rebalancing. That's because stocks over the long haul grow faster than bonds. Your AA will naturally become more risky and therefore have a higher expected return. You don't rebalance to juice returns, you rebalance to keep you in your chosen risk profile.

Cheers :sharebeer

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by DrivingFun » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:11 am

Since I'm still in accumulation phase and most of my accounts still receive contributions the rebalancing happens with new money.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by coachd50 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:18 am

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
What was the purpose for and reasoning behind your original asset allocation? That should give you your answer as to what to do. Sounds like you either didn't have a good reason (and are realizing this now) or you simply don't understand the methods being presented/supported here on this forum

I am pretty new to this site, but I will admit it seems that unfortunately much of the forum is plagued with questions from one of four subjects :

I am going to market time, talk me out of it.
Paying off house vs contributing to mutual funds
I am going to buy individual securities, talk me out of it.
Why bother having bonds in an AA
Last edited by coachd50 on Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by JW-Retired » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:19 am

I only one-way rebalance........will sell stocks to keep my bonds near 40%. If/when bonds exceed 40% because stocks are tanking we just watch. Did that peacefully in 08/09/10.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Lafder » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:31 am

You are having a typical behavioral economics feeling of not wanting to sell what you already have.

I am with you. I hate selling what I have. So I rebalance by buying bonds with new money. This only works to a degree.

If my AA gets really out of whack I will sell to rebalance. But in general I only do that if my AA gets off by more than 5%. Ok even more than 5% since I am at closer to 70/30 and my goal is 65/35.

I think I should go ahead and do a rebalance...............it will also help since some accounts have very different AA's than others and I want them more in sync with each other.

You might want to read on behavioral economics. Just the thought of rebalancing is raising my anxiety.............

If there is a stock market crash, I will rebalance........but I will worry when the right time to do so is..........

lafder

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Wildebeest » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:38 am

sperry8 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:06 am
I stopped rebalancing after reading that annual rebalancing didn't move returns. It's also a way of capturing the momentum factor imo.
I completely agree.

Also that makes it so much easier to keep us from fiddling with our portfolio and make it so much easier to : "Set it and forget it".

When there is going to be a major bear/depression I will tax harvest. I will not tax harvest till there is " blood in the streets"
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by 3funder » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:38 am

I don't do much re-balancing. I recently set my re-balancing bands at 5%, and that's only because stocks have had a nice run. Otherwise, I'm not sure I would've done anything.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by dodecahedron » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:44 am

Equities are primarily in taxable, all with substantial embedded gains. Rebalancing primarily by making additional charitable donations of equities.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by ClevrChico » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:46 am

ChosenGSR wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:11 am
Since I'm still in accumulation phase and most of my accounts still receive contributions the rebalancing happens with new money.
Same for me. I believe this is called "lazy rebalancing". It would work the same if you were spending down accounts too. Here's a handy calculator I found from the wiki:

http://optimalrebalancing.tk/?i=1

am
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:51 am

coachd50 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:18 am
am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
What was the purpose for and reasoning behind your original asset allocation? That should give you your answer as to what to do. Sounds like you either didn't have a good reason (and are realizing this now) or you simply don't understand the methods being presented/supported here on this forum

I am pretty new to this site, but I will admit it seems that unfortunately much of the forum is plagued with questions from one of four subjects :

I am going to market time, talk me out of it.
Paying off house vs contributing to mutual funds
I am going to buy individual securities, talk me out of it.
Why bother having bonds in an AA
Years ago when I set allocation, bonds and money markets were yielding much more. Now it seems like I’m rebalancing into dead weight. I’m investing for decades and would rather weather the short term volatility for greater expected returns in the long run. Our personal situation has changed with more income, no debt, and taking more risk on the equity side seems warranted. Also, a portfolio with 75% stocks versus 80% stocks will not lessen the pain for me during a big drop.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by whodidntante » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 am

I will not pay capital gains tax in order to rebalance. In tax advantaged accounts I rebalance.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by dbr » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:57 am

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
The ultimate effect on average over time of not rebalancing is a higher and higher allocation to stocks. If that is what your assessment of the risk and return you want tells you is right, then you should not rebalance. The real question is whether you accept the idea that return and risk are the determinates of a financial plan. If you believe that only return matters and not risk, then you would not rebalance. But the reason would be that in that case you would never own any bonds in the first place and the issue does not come up. If you are figuring that eventually everything balances out then maybe you should have a plan to rebalance but with very wide bands.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by yukonjack » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:58 am

trav867 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:56 pm
You could rebalance with new money.
I find this to be the easiest way to rebalance. By using new money I rarely have to sell anything at all.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by dbr » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:00 am

yukonjack wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:58 am
trav867 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:56 pm
You could rebalance with new money.
I find this to be the easiest way to rebalance. By using new money I rarely have to sell anything at all.
The OP would have to say whether or not putting that money in low returning bonds rather than stocks would be just as hard as selling stocks to buy bonds. It is true that selling things seems to be an emotionally charged act that simply buying something might not. I agree with nisiprius that reading on behavioral investing might be helpful.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by hulburt1 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:02 am

I'm 65 and at 98% stocks. If the stock market go down 30% this year I'm still up from my 33% last year. I don't have aa. I look at my last 3 years and have averaged up 25% a year. I'll play this game for a few more years. I love winning. up $130000 in 28 days that's 2 years of living.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by ETadvisor » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:19 am

I have to rebalance in my 401k as my employer match is paid in company stock and I set my allocations for company stock at 0%. I work for Megacorp so I still hold company shares in S&P 500/TSM. I follow the 5% bands for rebalancing and my company stock was at 5% of the portfolio in December of last year so I rebalanced early this month. 401k is tax-advantaged account so no tax ramifications to sell stock.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Index Fan » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:21 am

I rebalance once every 2-3 years.

I forget where he said it, but Bill Bernstein did some calculating and recommended not rebalancing too often.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:22 am

I rebalance by adjusting where new money goes. It generally works quite well.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by aristotelian » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:26 am

Jags4186 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:02 am
You will have better expected performance by not rebalancing. That's because stocks over the long haul grow faster than bonds. Your AA will naturally become more risky and therefore have a higher expected return. You don't rebalance to juice returns, you rebalance to keep you in your chosen risk profile.

Cheers :sharebeer
It depends on what your baseline comparison is. Rebalancing has higher expected returns than selling in a crash and buying at the peak.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Mike Scott » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:27 am

I do rebalance with new money. However, balanced funds will do it for you. Going all in stocks (or whatever) does not require rebalancing. I think that most people with a target AA would want to rebalance sooner or later or they are likely to drift away from their target plus or minus and increase their risk.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by coachd50 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:47 am

am wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:51 am
coachd50 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:18 am
am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
What was the purpose for and reasoning behind your original asset allocation? That should give you your answer as to what to do. Sounds like you either didn't have a good reason (and are realizing this now) or you simply don't understand the methods being presented/supported here on this forum

I am pretty new to this site, but I will admit it seems that unfortunately much of the forum is plagued with questions from one of four subjects :

I am going to market time, talk me out of it.
Paying off house vs contributing to mutual funds
I am going to buy individual securities, talk me out of it.
Why bother having bonds in an AA
Years ago when I set allocation, bonds and money markets were yielding much more. Now it seems like I’m rebalancing into dead weight. I’m investing for decades and would rather weather the short term volatility for greater expected returns in the long run. Our personal situation has changed with more income, no debt, and taking more risk on the equity side seems warranted. Also, a portfolio with 75% stocks versus 80% stocks will not lessen the pain for me during a big drop.
Ok, but you did not answer the question. What was the reasoning behind your original asset allocation? Why do bond/MM yields matter? From what you say here, it seems you didn't really pick the right AA originally. If that is the case, then doing what it takes to get to the "correct" AA you deem for your situation is probably the best course of action.

Just recognize that the fact that the S&P500 is up about 6% this month is going to make a lot of people do stupid things. Pigs...Hogs... you know the saying.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by coachd50 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:51 am

hulburt1 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:02 am
I'm 65 and at 98% stocks. If the stock market go down 30% this year I'm still up from my 33% last year. I don't have aa. I look at my last 3 years and have averaged up 25% a year. I'll play this game for a few more years. I love winning. up $130000 in 28 days that's 2 years of living.
On paper..pre tax. Just keep that in mind. Keep in mind that for some (like yourself apparently) it is a game, but for others it is their retirement strategy. The methods prescribed by John Bogle and the "bogleheads" aren't designed to make one rich, but keep one from retiring poor.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:03 pm

When I add an old Illinois pension cash value which grows 6% or so each year (Illinois rating baa) like a bond and cash in mm and savings, I am below my target allocation to stocks. Even lower if I include a sizable gift from in-laws which is invested 30/70 but not counted as part of my portfolio (long story).

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Blueskies123 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:08 pm

Rebalancing is how you buy low and sell high.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:27 pm

Have a relative worth 8 figures, 99% in equities - even if markets declined by 75%, the relative would still have enough to live several lifetimes. Now, for the rest of us, the number of posters who could lose 75% of their networth permanently and have enough to last their lifetime is likely far and few between. The “I” in IPS is dual hatted - investment- why yes we are all aware of that, but it also represents individual as in, each IPS is an investment policy statement based upon an individuals specific requirements. What is good for one may not be good for the next person......
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by bottlecap » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:56 pm

am wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I am about 5-10% above my original stock allocation. But I am having a real hard time selling equities to buy into bonds which have such low expected returns. I have years to invest/accumulate, relatively stable career, and high risk tolerance. I also figure that eventually my portfolio will rebalance back on its own like in the past.
Don't treat a marathon like a sprint.

Good luck,

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by dcw213 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:00 pm

I have personally never had to sell assets to rebalance, but I do partially redirect new funds to the asset class that is lagging its target. Lately that has meant easing up (but not halting) new contributions to equities. Emotionally I never like to neglect adding to a particular asset class with new funds for an extended period while in accumulation phase.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by KlangFool » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:19 pm

OP,

1) I use my new money to buy the bond in my 401K and 457.

2) I sell stock when I need money. For example, contribution to Roth IRA

3) Recently, my portfolio size hits a milestone. Hence, I adjusted my AA from 62/38 to 61/39.

KlangFool

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Blueskies123 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:19 pm

I rebalance once a year if warranted however I thought what Jim C. Otar said was interesting. He said:

"The long term volatility was about the same whether you rebalanced annually or once every four years on the Presidential election year. • Rebalancing too often stunted the portfolio growth in secular bull markets. In many cases, the portfolio that was rebalanced based on the Presidential cycle had a slightly higher value at the market peak than rebalancing annually. • Rebalancing too often compounded losses in secular bear markets. The real benefit of synchronizing the rebalancing activity with the U.S. Presidential election cycle was a significant improvement in preserving capital. This made a considerable difference in portfolio longevity. • In sideways markets, it did not matter how often you rebalanced. "

You should download his PDF on Unveiling the Retirement Myth. He talks about how to rebalance 5 years before retirement and then how to retire within 5 years of retirement. He provides some thoughtful insights but at least for the here and now I have chosen once a year.

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:31 pm

I rebalance with new money as new money comes in.
I also adjust the allocation as my personal mileage/odometer goes up.
j :D

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by saltycaper » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:38 pm

Blueskies123 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:19 pm
I rebalance once a year if warranted however I thought what Jim C. Otar said was interesting. He said:

"The long term volatility was about the same whether you rebalanced annually or once every four years on the Presidential election year. • Rebalancing too often stunted the portfolio growth in secular bull markets. In many cases, the portfolio that was rebalanced based on the Presidential cycle had a slightly higher value at the market peak than rebalancing annually. • Rebalancing too often compounded losses in secular bear markets. The real benefit of synchronizing the rebalancing activity with the U.S. Presidential election cycle was a significant improvement in preserving capital. This made a considerable difference in portfolio longevity. • In sideways markets, it did not matter how often you rebalanced. "
It's this sort of strategy that turns "rebalancing bands" into "market timing bands."
Quod vitae sectabor iter?

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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by MichaelRpdx » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:52 pm

I've rebalanced twice. Once when we got within five years of projected retirement, to go from 100/0 to 80/20. The second time was on retiring, went from 80/20 to 66/34. There has not been enough value drift to trigger a rebalance since retiring. Our IPS states any allocation between 60/40 and 70/30 is acceptable.

JW-retire wrote: I only one-way rebalance........will sell stocks to keep my bonds near 40%. If/when bonds exceed 40% because stocks are tanking we just watch. Did that peacefully in 08/09/10.
That's a tactic to give some thought to. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by MichaelRpdx » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:55 pm

Blueskies123 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:19 pm
You should download his PDF on Unveiling the Retirement Myth. He talks about how to rebalance 5 years before retirement and then how to retire within 5 years of retirement. [emphasis added]He provides some thoughtful insights but at least for the here and now I have chosen once a year.
I expect all of us retired or will retire within a day of retirement. :D
What did you mean to write?
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Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by Blueskies123 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:08 pm

MichaelRpdx wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:55 pm
Blueskies123 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:19 pm
You should download his PDF on Unveiling the Retirement Myth. He talks about how to rebalance 5 years before retirement and then how to retire within 5 years of retirement. [/b] [emphasis added]He provides some thoughtful insights but at least for the here and now I have chosen once a year.
I expect all of us retired or will retire within a day of retirement. :D
What did you mean to write?
How to rebalance within 5 years of retirement.

schachtw
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by schachtw » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:20 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 am
I will not pay capital gains tax in order to rebalance. In tax advantaged accounts I rebalance.
Our AA has exceeded the 5% rebalancing band. Currently at 56/44, whereas our IPS calls for 50/50.

Can only rebalance in taxable accounts, as our IRAs are already 100% bonds.

The dilemma of rebalancing means selling equity positions having approximately 60K of capital gains. With zero potential loses to offset this, we’re looking at a sizable tax bill.

I know I should rebalance to maintain our desired AA, but I’m loathe to pay the tax bill.

Am I being shortsighted, or worse yet greedy?

MoonOrb
Posts: 964
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by MoonOrb » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:24 pm

coachd50 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:18 am
I am pretty new to this site, but I will admit it seems that unfortunately much of the forum is plagued with questions from one of four subjects :

I am going to market time, talk me out of it.
Paying off house vs contributing to mutual funds
I am going to buy individual securities, talk me out of it.
Why bother having bonds in an AA
Also:

I'm scared to invest because the market is at an all time high what should I do

am
Posts: 2794
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:55 am

Re: Does anyone not rebalance?

Post by am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:50 pm

MoonOrb wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:24 pm
coachd50 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:18 am
I am pretty new to this site, but I will admit it seems that unfortunately much of the forum is plagued with questions from one of four subjects :

I am going to market time, talk me out of it.
Paying off house vs contributing to mutual funds
I am going to buy individual securities, talk me out of it.
Why bother having bonds in an AA
Also:

I'm scared to invest because the market is at an all time high what should I do
The market is at all time highs a good % of the time. Take 1999 or 2007 for example, look where are now! This might be a cheap time to buy if we’re at Dow 46000 in 5 yrs.

CAGR Jan 1,2000 to Dec 2017 for SP 500 is 5.37 so maybe we’ll have mean reversion. What’s the PE 20 anyway?
Last edited by am on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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