Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:44 pm

We are ready to set up automated transfers into various accounts: Vanguard (ROTH), Lively (HSA) and M1 Finance (taxable). The 401K is already automated through megacorp. Which is faster, pushing money from our bank every payday or having them pull funds regularly (twice per month)?

Vanguard has the option to not only pull the cash automatically but to also invest into specific funds automatically. M1 Fiannce also offers the same automatic investment into a preselected portfolio. Lively is simply a deposit which then needs to be moved to TD Ameritrade to invest.
It would not be a set it and forget it situation since we use YNAB and check our accounts regularly.

thangngo
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by thangngo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:49 pm

I think pull is faster most of the time. If you set automatic investment at Vanguard, it let you "advance" the fund to purchase fund/ETF and the fund will be settled via ACH in the next business day. Marcus by Goldman Sachs let me have effective date as the date I initiate the transfer on Marcus website. I saw the fund taken out of my bank account the next business day.

KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:53 pm

thangngo wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:49 pm
I think pull is faster most of the time. If you set automatic investment at Vanguard, it let you "advance" the fund to purchase fund/ETF and the fund will be settled via ACH in the next business day. Marcus by Goldman Sachs let me have effective date as the date I initiate the transfer on Marcus website. I saw the fund taken out of my bank account the next business day.
That's good to know. I hadn't realized they make the effective date the day of the scheduled pull.

livesoft
Posts: 60477
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by livesoft » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm

Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

jebmke
Posts: 7736
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by jebmke » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:06 pm

I have not detected any difference using Vanguard, my checking account bank and my savings account bank. They all handle the ACH transactions within 24 hours.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm
Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
We had the same thought. I posted this thread and set up a wire to Vanguard. They already called me to confirm receipt. It wasn't even a half hour ago.

UpperNwGuy
Posts: 430
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by UpperNwGuy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:49 pm

I assume that this discussion of push vs pull involves, in both cases, a bank that has already been "verified" by Vanguard. Vanguard's verification is a rather lengthy process these days.

jebmke
Posts: 7736
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by jebmke » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 pm

KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm
Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
We had the same thought. I posted this thread and set up a wire to Vanguard. They already called me to confirm receipt. It wasn't even a half hour ago.
Was this a wire transfer or ACH? Two different animals.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:26 pm

jebmke wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 pm
KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm
Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
We had the same thought. I posted this thread and set up a wire to Vanguard. They already called me to confirm receipt. It wasn't even a half hour ago.
Was this a wire transfer or ACH? Two different animals.
Wire.

radiowave
Posts: 1662
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by radiowave » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm

check to see if your bank charges a fee for outgoing ACH transfers, Bank of America does, cant remember but still a few dollars per transfer. I "pull" from the receiving end.
Bogleheads Wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

mhalley
Posts: 5681
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by mhalley » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:39 pm

I was under the impression that push was faster for ACH. From the finance buff:
. This is because when you push, the sending bank knows how much money you have. It lets you push only if you have enough money in your account. When the money arrives at the receiving account, the receiving bank treats it as good funds because the sending bank already verified you have enough money before sending it. There’s no hold on the money pushed in.

When you pull, they don’t know whether you have enough money in your source account. The source bank can always come back and reverse it. This is for your protection. You don’t want random people to pull money from your bank account and not have recourse. Because of this lack of confidence in whether the money is good or not, the receiving bank often places a hold on the money pulled in. Sometimes the hold can be as long as a full week.

User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 4180
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by dratkinson » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:13 pm

radiowave wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm
check to see if your bank charges a fee for outgoing ACH transfers, Bank of America does, cant remember but still a few dollars per transfer. I "pull" from the receiving end.
+1

One of my accounts (bank?, CU?) charges for an ACH push, ACH pull is free.

ACH process seems to take 2 business days each way.

ACH pull. My investment companies (Vanguard, Westcore) give me the date I enter the trade (if before market close), but the money comes out of my bank/CU accounts 2 business days later. So it's faster to get the money invested by doing an ACH pull.

ACH push. End-of-the-month redirected distributions take 2 business days to arrive in my account. But I don't care as I don't worry about rebalancing until after the first-of-the-month statements are reconciled.
d.r.a, not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor, you are forewarned.

User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 2116
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by indexfundfan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 pm

KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:44 pm
We are ready to set up automated transfers into various accounts: Vanguard (ROTH), Lively (HSA) and M1 Finance (taxable). The 401K is already automated through megacorp. Which is faster, pushing money from our bank every payday or having them pull funds regularly (twice per month)?

Vanguard has the option to not only pull the cash automatically but to also invest into specific funds automatically. M1 Fiannce also offers the same automatic investment into a preselected portfolio. Lively is simply a deposit which then needs to be moved to TD Ameritrade to invest.
It would not be a set it and forget it situation since we use YNAB and check our accounts regularly.
I can tell you that if you are funding Lively/TDAM using ACH, it is slow. I started the process last Friday morning and the money still has not reached TDAM.

The following is the timeline in business days:

Day 1: Submitted transfer request.
Day 2: Morning: Money was deducted from external bank but not credited to Lively.
Day 4: Night: Money finally credited to Lively. I immediately submitted the request to move money to TDAM.
Day 5: Still waiting for money to appear in TDAM.
My signature has been deleted.

jebmke
Posts: 7736
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by jebmke » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 pm

KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:26 pm
jebmke wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 pm
KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm
Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
We had the same thought. I posted this thread and set up a wire to Vanguard. They already called me to confirm receipt. It wasn't even a half hour ago.
Was this a wire transfer or ACH? Two different animals.
Wire.
I don't think you can pull with a wire transfer. All my experience with wires was international though and they were always push transactions.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:08 am

indexfundfan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 pm
KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:44 pm
We are ready to set up automated transfers into various accounts: Vanguard (ROTH), Lively (HSA) and M1 Finance (taxable). The 401K is already automated through megacorp. Which is faster, pushing money from our bank every payday or having them pull funds regularly (twice per month)?

Vanguard has the option to not only pull the cash automatically but to also invest into specific funds automatically. M1 Fiannce also offers the same automatic investment into a preselected portfolio. Lively is simply a deposit which then needs to be moved to TD Ameritrade to invest.
It would not be a set it and forget it situation since we use YNAB and check our accounts regularly.
I can tell you that if you are funding Lively/TDAM using ACH, it is slow. I started the process last Friday morning and the money still has not reached TDAM.

The following is the timeline in business days:

Day 1: Submitted transfer request.
Day 2: Morning: Money was deducted from external bank but not credited to Lively.
Day 4: Night: Money finally credited to Lively. I immediately submitted the request to move money to TDAM.
Day 5: Still waiting for money to appear in TDAM.
I am going to add Lively as a payroll deduction to see how fast that will process.
I see the $6,750 debit from my bank and it shows at Lively, but in pending status so I cannot yet transfer to TDAM.

KATNYC
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by KATNYC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:04 am

dratkinson wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:13 pm
radiowave wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm
check to see if your bank charges a fee for outgoing ACH transfers, Bank of America does, cant remember but still a few dollars per transfer. I "pull" from the receiving end.
+1

One of my accounts (bank?, CU?) charges for an ACH push, ACH pull is free.

ACH process seems to take 2 business days each way.

ACH pull. My investment companies (Vanguard, Westcore) give me the date I enter the trade (if before market close), but the money comes out of my bank/CU accounts 2 business days later. So it's faster to get the money invested by doing an ACH pull.

ACH push. End-of-the-month redirected distributions take 2 business days to arrive in my account. But I don't care as I don't worry about rebalancing until after the first-of-the-month statements are reconciled.
No, I've never paid for wires or ACH. That is the main reason I keep this particular checking account and move money into it when I need to wire for free.

Lake Michigan Credit Union charges $5 for incoming wires. Didn't know that until after I sent a free wire from my main checking.

User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 4180
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by dratkinson » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:37 am

KATNYC wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:04 am
...
No, I've never paid for wires or ACH. That is the main reason I keep this particular checking account and move money into it when I need to wire for free.

Lake Michigan Credit Union charges $5 for incoming wires. Didn't know that until after I sent a free wire from my main checking.
All the banks/CUs I've dealt with publish a list of fees/services. When I've moved into a new area and opened a local account, I always looked at the list to see if they had the services I needed, and if I could work around the fees. Then I'd establish only the links that avoided fees, so if I forgot, the link was not there, so I could not initiate the transfer, so I could not be charged. (Idiot-proofing to protect myself from myself.)


Interestingly, there's a local Wells Fargo office and I tried to consolidate accounts there. But WF did not, at the time, have a composite list of fees/services. Instead, I was interviewed by a Personal Banker who explained how to avoid WF's many fees for the services I could think of. After leaving, I did think of others, but didn't return to ask about them. I figure it's the bank's responsibility to provide that list, not the customer's responsibility to guess which they have. And I certainly didn't want to be subjected to new fees for services I couldn't think of---better to err on the side of caution and leave.
d.r.a, not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor, you are forewarned.

User avatar
Toons
Posts: 12689
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by Toons » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:04 am

Pull
:happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

cherijoh
Posts: 4682
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by cherijoh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:40 am

mhalley wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:39 pm
I was under the impression that push was faster for ACH. From the finance buff:
. This is because when you push, the sending bank knows how much money you have. It lets you push only if you have enough money in your account. When the money arrives at the receiving account, the receiving bank treats it as good funds because the sending bank already verified you have enough money before sending it. There’s no hold on the money pushed in.

When you pull, they don’t know whether you have enough money in your source account. The source bank can always come back and reverse it. This is for your protection. You don’t want random people to pull money from your bank account and not have recourse. Because of this lack of confidence in whether the money is good or not, the receiving bank often places a hold on the money pulled in. Sometimes the hold can be as long as a full week.
That is true, however it usually doesn't matter if you are simply DCA into an investment account. If you pull it and tell VG to invest it in TSM index then they give you the closing price on the date of the pull - which is usually all the investor cares about. There is a hold on the money until the funds clear, but that only comes into play if you want to move the money in the next day or two. If you put it in MM and try and move it the next day I don't know if it would get hung up or whether VG would let you move it into an investment fund. You definitely wouldn't be able to take it out of VG until it clears.

Anecdotally, someone posted about trying to make a contribution to their donor advised fund (DAF) at Fidelity before Dec 31st. They did an ACH transfer from their bank to a Fidelity brokerage acct planning to do a same day transfer to their DAF, but it got hung up while waiting for the funds to clear. In contrast, I mailed Fidelity a check from my bank and I got credited with my contribution without any delay.

cherijoh
Posts: 4682
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Which is faster - Push or Pull - Transfer of cash into investment accounts

Post by cherijoh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:53 am

jebmke wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 pm
KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:26 pm
jebmke wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 pm
KATNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 pm
livesoft wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm
Every pair of institutions is different, so you may have to do the experiment yourself. I know that one can transfer between a Wells Fargo checking account and a Wells Trade brokerage account (push or pull) in less than an hour. The last two times I did a transfer it took about 15 minutes.
We had the same thought. I posted this thread and set up a wire to Vanguard. They already called me to confirm receipt. It wasn't even a half hour ago.
Was this a wire transfer or ACH? Two different animals.
Wire.
I don't think you can pull with a wire transfer. All my experience with wires was international though and they were always push transactions.
I believe you are correct. Plus almost every bank charges for wire transfers and it is usually a whole lot more expensive than an ACH.

Post Reply