Edward Jones - help

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JC565
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Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:35 pm

Does anyone know how to get from under the "Guided Solutions" thumb of Edward Jones. I call my broker because I want to change my investment strategy and its, you cant do this, you cant do that, the computer makes me select a balance, 2017 fiduciary rules, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I just want my money in a total market fund. that's it. one fund. is that so hard?


Im really tempted to direct my deposits to the money market and transfer them to vanguard. Unfortunately Im stuck with EJ because of employer match. certainly no good reason to give up a couple grand a year.

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CAsage
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by CAsage » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:32 pm

If you can periodically transfer the money out, that might be the best solution. Take the match, then move it - possible? There are quite a few posts on the "Guided Solutions" morass, perhaps read those?
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.

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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by oldcomputerguy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:42 pm

You mentioned a company match. Is this a 401k? If so, you may be stuck. The plan rules will specify what (if any) circumstances will allow withdrawals or transfers.

If it isn’t, call Vanguard and tell them you want to move it to them. Let them do the interaction with EJ.
It’s taken me a lot of years, but I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:55 pm

The account is a simple IRA. As far as I know, there is a 2 year hold period. The company match is distributed once per year. (in the next couple weeks actually) I don't think I can transfer inside the 2 year window.... I also cant get ETFs until $5000. Ive only had the account open for a few months but should have right around 4k after my match.

So the 2017 plan, I fully intended to take out the money before 2 years as a down payment on a house (which I can do with first time home buyers,) so I put the money mostly into stable bonds. I figured after I pulled out my down payment I would switch everything over to an income and growth type portfolio. But the way they have this thing structured.. its like it forces you do buy products even if you don't want them, else the robo advisor simply wont let the broker proceed. (and yes I know the negatives of using the cash for down payment. I've done the math, and it's to my advantage)

Right now, I'm trying to change my plans a little since I think 2018 is going to be a great year. I just want to hold on to all my bonds I have already bought, as a small hedge, and then put my match and next years savings into aggressive stocks. But... cant do it. This really annoys me.. if I want to do this with my vanguard, I just click sell and click buy.

So what do I do? I don't want to just money market all the money for a year until I get my match and miss out on potential earnings. And I cant do much from my end other than tell my broker I dont agree with EJ's method

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Ged
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by Ged » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:02 pm

Is the company forcing you to use EJ? If not can you direct the match to a different IRA? The sooner you get out of the EJ swamp the better off you will be.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by neilpilot » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:08 pm

According to the OP, OP is giving up "a couple grand a year" and OP "should have right around 4k after my match". I understand the pitfalls of EJ, but at the current funding balance of this IRA maybe the OP is somewhat exaggerating the advantage of moving the funds out?

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:16 pm

1% is 1% and I HIGHLY disagree that in any scenario for any amount of money, it would not be worth it. Especially when the bulk of my net worth is sitting in vanguard funds with .05% fees I may not be on the level of some of you guys here, but I can do basic math. I can assure you if not for my "little" $2k match, I would not be doing business with EJ. period. and its actually much more than 2% its 1.35 + $40 annually, plus the fund ER.


This all came about because over the few months I had this account open, 5 out of the 6 holdings show small negative returns. Why should I have negative returns when the market was up? Hell even the funds themselves were up. Even If I didnt hold the entire year that just doesnt make sense. And its not just the returns. It's the fact that I cant buy and sell what I want, WHEN I want, with out some computer forcing me to do certain things. If I bought 2000 dollars worth of bonds and I want to hold them and buy something else in 2018, that's my business.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by mkc » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:20 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:16 pm
This all came about because over the few months I had this account open, 5 out of the 6 holdings show small negative returns. Why should I have negative returns when the market was up? Hell even the funds themselves were up. Even If I didnt hold the entire year that just doesnt make sense.
What are the funds? Do they have front-end loads? That would skim off the original investment right from the start... (and it's very common for EJ to put people in such funds)

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by nkotbbh » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:46 am

JCBiggs wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:35 pm
Does anyone know how to get from under the "Guided Solutions" thumb of Edward Jones. I call my broker because I want to change my investment strategy and its, you cant do this, you cant do that, the computer makes me select a balance, 2017 fiduciary rules, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I just want my money in a total market fund. that's it. one fund. is that so hard?


Im really tempted to direct my deposits to the money market and transfer them to vanguard. Unfortunately Im stuck with EJ because of employer match. certainly no good reason to give up a couple grand a year.
DUDE RUN! Leaving Edward Jones was the best thing ever there fees are ridiculous I was always in the negative and the sales rep which is all they are comes out with this book marker looking thing telling me how much I would have by retirement age, umm........... no one can predict the market or tell you how much you will/can have an ex amount of years from now. If anything just cancel your EJ account with them stop contributing and open up a Vanguard account.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:22 am

unfortunately if I did that, it would mean giving up a couple thousand dollars a year in employer match. I dont have enough investments yet to make the fees greater than that 2k so not smart at this point. now when i get to 175k.... then its time to start thinking about it.

right now I am trying to talk with vanguard about transfering but they are telling me my employer has to open an account. I think they are wanting me to contribute directly to vanguard instead of tranfering from EJ. but im almost positive I wont be able to get my employer to do this. So Im not sure what I need to do now ...other than just put my investments in high growth non front load funds and call it a day.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by vested1 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 am

It may be that part of your problem with gain since you opened the account is that you have chosen bond funds, which are stagnant or slightly positive. The fees you describe would eat up the gains. If you feel you have to stay with EJ because of the match I would take more risk with this relatively small amount and go with a stock fund instead. Ask yourself is 2k is really worth the aggravation, and how much more you might make somewhere else, which might eclipse the match.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:50 am

I would double-check the 2-year period, as I *think* that applies to xfer from SIMPLE to non-SIMPLE.

We set up a "frozen" SIMPLE IRA at Vanguard for my spouse, which can *only* accept xfer from another simple. Her program gets the contributions, including match, and we just check the balance once a month and send VG a transfer authorization form to take her employer SIMPLE assets down to a couple hundred bucks. So we don't lose the match, and most of the assets live at VG.

I believe it's the SIMPLE to SIMPLE aspect that gets around the 2-year wait period, but it's been a year since we set it up, so like I said, double-check that.
"I've been ionized, but I'm okay now." -Buckaroo Banzai

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:42 am

dougger5 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:50 am
I would double-check the 2-year period, as I *think* that applies to xfer from SIMPLE to non-SIMPLE.

We set up a "frozen" SIMPLE IRA at Vanguard for my spouse, which can *only* accept xfer from another simple. Her program gets the contributions, including match, and we just check the balance once a month and send VG a transfer authorization form to take her employer SIMPLE assets down to a couple hundred bucks. So we don't lose the match, and most of the assets live at VG.

I believe it's the SIMPLE to SIMPLE aspect that gets around the 2-year wait period, but it's been a year since we set it up, so like I said, double-check that.
Thats what I would like to do. Since EJ Fees are based on the balance, I could keep the balance low, but the person I spoke to at vanguard didnt seem to imply that was a possibility.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by Lafder » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am

Can you take the time to post your specific holdings in this format?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

What funds do you hold at EJ? What type of account ? Etc

If you get a several 1000 company match, it is unlikely you are paying more than that in fees, making it worth keeping the account.

If we have more detail we can help you pick the best options from your choices.

lafder

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:44 am

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:42 am
dougger5 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:50 am
I would double-check the 2-year period, as I *think* that applies to xfer from SIMPLE to non-SIMPLE.

We set up a "frozen" SIMPLE IRA at Vanguard for my spouse, which can *only* accept xfer from another simple. Her program gets the contributions, including match, and we just check the balance once a month and send VG a transfer authorization form to take her employer SIMPLE assets down to a couple hundred bucks. So we don't lose the match, and most of the assets live at VG.

I believe it's the SIMPLE to SIMPLE aspect that gets around the 2-year wait period, but it's been a year since we set it up, so like I said, double-check that.
Thats what I would like to do. Since EJ Fees are based on the balance, I could keep the balance low, but the person I spoke to at vanguard didnt seem to imply that was a possibility.
I didn't deal with any CSR's at VG - just downloaded forms to open a new SIMPLE plan, and in that form, there is an option that specifies the new account as being for transfers-only. Hold on - lemme see if I can get some thread links with more detail...
Ah, here's a thread of mine confirming some details, with lots of helpful feedback:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185890

In addition to the form mentioned in the above linked thread, which establishes the "frozen" account, you need a Transfer Authorization Form to actually initiate the transfer. This form, as I eventually figured out, is only available upon request. I used VG's secure message system, and just described what I was doing and asked them to send me that form to allow me to do it. A day or two later, they sent the PDF, which I now just edit once a month, print, and mail in.
"I've been ionized, but I'm okay now." -Buckaroo Banzai

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ruralavalon
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 am

JCBiggs wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:35 pm
Does anyone know how to get from under the "Guided Solutions" thumb of Edward Jones. I call my broker because I want to change my investment strategy and its, you cant do this, you cant do that, the computer makes me select a balance, 2017 fiduciary rules, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I just want my money in a total market fund. that's it. one fund. is that so hard?


Im really tempted to direct my deposits to the money market and transfer them to vanguard. Unfortunately Im stuck with EJ because of employer match. certainly no good reason to give up a couple grand a year.
JCBiggs wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:55 pm
The account is a simple IRA. As far as I know, there is a 2 year hold period. The company match is distributed once per year. (in the next couple weeks actually) I don't think I can transfer inside the 2 year window.... I also cant get ETFs until $5000. Ive only had the account open for a few months but should have right around 4k after my match.

So the 2017 plan, I fully intended to take out the money before 2 years as a down payment on a house (which I can do with first time home buyers,) so I put the money mostly into stable bonds. I figured after I pulled out my down payment I would switch everything over to an income and growth type portfolio. But the way they have this thing structured.. its like it forces you do buy products even if you don't want them, else the robo advisor simply wont let the broker proceed. (and yes I know the negatives of using the cash for down payment. I've done the math, and it's to my advantage)

Right now, I'm trying to change my plans a little since I think 2018 is going to be a great year. I just want to hold on to all my bonds I have already bought, as a small hedge, and then put my match and next years savings into aggressive stocks. But... cant do it. This really annoys me.. if I want to do this with my vanguard, I just click sell and click buy.

So what do I do? I don't want to just money market all the money for a year until I get my match and miss out on potential earnings. And I cant do much from my end other than tell my broker I dont agree with EJ's method
Is this a Form 5304 SIMPLE IRA or a Form 5305 SIMPLE IRA? The rules are different for using other custodians.

Regardless, I agree that you should contribute at least enough to get the full employer match beach year.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by pkcrafter » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:23 am

Lafder wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am
Can you take the time to post your specific holdings in this format?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212

What funds do you hold at EJ? What type of account ? Etc

If you get a several 1000 company match, it is unlikely you are paying more than that in fees, making it worth keeping the account.

If we have more detail we can help you pick the best options from your choices.

lafder
JCBiggs, this advice is your best bet right now. Post some of your lower cost options and we can help with selection. I know it's not ideal, but probably the best you can do right now.
A distribution from a SIMPLE IRA during the 2-year period qualifies as a rollover contribution (and thus is not includable in gross income) only if the distribution is transferred into another SIMPLE IRA and satisfies the other requirements of section 408(d)(3) for treatment as a rollover contribution.

Can I transfer an amount from my SIMPLE IRA to another IRA in a tax-free trustee-to-trustee transfer?

During the 2-year period, you may transfer an amount in a SIMPLE IRA to another SIMPLE IRA in a tax-free trustee-to-trustee transfer. If, during this 2-year period, an amount is paid from a SIMPLE IRA directly to the trustee of an IRA that is not a SIMPLE IRA, then the payment is neither a tax-free trustee-to-trustee transfer nor a rollover contribution. The payment is a distribution from the SIMPLE IRA and a contribution to the other IRA that doesn’t qualify as a rollover contribution. After the expiration of the 2-year period, you may transfer an amount in a SIMPLE IRA in a tax-free trustee-to-trustee transfer to an IRA that is not a SIMPLE IRA.
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/si ... -rollovers

If you are considering a transfer, try Fidelity. It's still worth messing with EJ as long as you get the match. Who ever set up this SIMPLE IRA is woefully ignorant about costs. :confused

Paul
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:30 pm

dougger5 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:44 am

I didn't deal with any CSR's at VG - just downloaded forms to open a new SIMPLE plan, and in that form, there is an option that specifies the new account as being for transfers-only. Hold on - lemme see if I can get some thread links with more detail...
Ah, here's a thread of mine confirming some details, with lots of helpful feedback:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185890

In addition to the form mentioned in the above linked thread, which establishes the "frozen" account, you need a Transfer Authorization Form to actually initiate the transfer. This form, as I eventually figured out, is only available upon request. I used VG's secure message system, and just described what I was doing and asked them to send me that form to allow me to do it. A day or two later, they sent the PDF, which I now just edit once a month, print, and mail in.
This is great information. Do you by chance have the form number? I can email asking for it today. Ill just direct all my cash into the EJ money market and transfer every couple of months.

I will say that It appears Vanguard charges a $25 fee PER FUND. So in the short term, it might actually cost me more to use vanguard at all since I will still have to pay EJ the annual $40. Long term, with larger dollar amounts this should matter less. (and I'm trying to get these dollar amounts "large" as soon as possible) If I Do go through with this, I'm debating on growth verses market tracking funds. I think over the long term VTI is probably the best place to park this money since it is retirement money. I'm diversified in my other accounts.
Last edited by JC565 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:38 pm

ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 am

Is this a Form 5304 SIMPLE IRA or a Form 5305 SIMPLE IRA? The rules are different for using other custodians.

Regardless, I agree that you should contribute at least enough to get the full employer match beach year.
I am not sure, it doesnt say anywhere on my statements, but Im 99% sure its a 5305. Since Im required to go through edward Jones. That said though, Im fully vested so its my money I dont know what would be stopping me from transferring. In fact, the employer cant see my account at all. They only way they know they ammount to match is from my pay stub, at least.. so Im told.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:21 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:30 pm
dougger5 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:44 am

I didn't deal with any CSR's at VG - just downloaded forms to open a new SIMPLE plan, and in that form, there is an option that specifies the new account as being for transfers-only. Hold on - lemme see if I can get some thread links with more detail...
Ah, here's a thread of mine confirming some details, with lots of helpful feedback:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185890

In addition to the form mentioned in the above linked thread, which establishes the "frozen" account, you need a Transfer Authorization Form to actually initiate the transfer. This form, as I eventually figured out, is only available upon request. I used VG's secure message system, and just described what I was doing and asked them to send me that form to allow me to do it. A day or two later, they sent the PDF, which I now just edit once a month, print, and mail in.
This is great information. Do you by chance have the form number? I can email asking for it today. Ill just direct all my cash into the EJ money market and transfer every couple of months.

I will say that It appears Vanguard charges a $25 fee PER FUND. So in the short term, it might actually cost me more to use vanguard at all since I will still have to pay EJ the annual $40. Long term, with larger dollar amounts this should matter less. (and I'm trying to get these dollar amounts "large" as soon as possible) If I Do go through with this, Im debating on growth verses market tracking funds. I think over the long term VTI is probably the best place to park this money since it is retirement money. I'm diversified in my other accounts.
The form designation at the top is "Form VSAF," and the full title is "SIMPLE IRA Asset Transfer Form."

Correct, you do have that fee until your assets (total for all accounts) exceed $50k. My wife had already rolled over a defunct plan that put her over that level, so we didn't encounter it for her frozen SIMPLE.

AA, of course, is a highly personal decision. I elected to put all of her SIMPLE transfers into a Target Retirement fund, reasoning that it would be easiest for her to manage if I was out-of-the-picture.
"I've been ionized, but I'm okay now." -Buckaroo Banzai

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by krow36 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pm

You might find this thread worth reading: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=204277 It’s long but covers the fees and other problems with the EJ Guided Solutions, transfer (frozen) SIMPLE IRA accounts, and lots more. EJ now uses a Form 5305-SA SIMPLE IRA which allows them write their own Form 5305. It is a 6 page mind-numbing document they call “SIMPLE IRA Custodial Agreement” https://www.edwardjones.com/images/self ... packet.pdf

The EJ SIMPLE IRA Disclosure Statement does discuss transfers. http://pn.b5z.net/i/u/10012410/f/Simple_IRA_Packet.pdf
D. Special Rules Applicable to Rollover Contributions and Transfers.
1. Transfers. A transfer is a movement of assets between like retirement plans. A direct transfer of funds in your SIMPLE IRA from one trustee/custodian to another trustee/custodian is not a rollover. Because there is no distribution to you, the transfer is tax free. You may make unlimited transfers between IRAs within the same 12-month period.

Assuming you want to establish a transfer SIMPLE IRA account at Vanguard (or at another low-cost financial institution), the first thing to do is set up the account. With Vanguard, you do that by downloading the SIMPLE IRA New Account Form. Type “SIMPLE IRA Employee Kit” in the Search box on the Vanguard website. In the SIMPLE IRA New Account Form, Section 2 Plan Information, choose “New frozen account”. You have to have a Vanguard account to be able to download the SIMPLE IRA Asset Transfer Authorization. Or contact them by phone.

If you made your first contribution to your SIMPLE IRA over 2 years ago, you can roll the EJ SIMPLE assets to a Vanguard traditional IRA. Check with Vanguard if you still have to use the frozen SIMPLE account and then transfer to the tIRA? There are no account fees on a VG IRA if you opt for electronic communications or have VG accounts over 10k. Be sure and leave $200 or so in the EJ account so they don't close it (as happened to another poster).

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Thanks for the help. I will try to get this done in the next couple of days.

Shallowpockets
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by Shallowpockets » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Get all the paperwork and info on your funds showing negative with a 2017 UP market return
And take them to your HR department and complain. Also let your fellow workers know the score. Most of them will probably not follow their money. But, if they have any in the EJ funds per the company, they will most certainly think twice about negative money in a distinctly positive year.
The company is probably paying some egregious fees also to have EJ administer this plan.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Just to clarify one last time... I DO NOT need to do anything with the employer documents included in this packet, since my employer will not be contributing to vanguard, but EJ. I have completed the SIMPLE IRA New Acct Form. I just need to figure out where to send it.

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:38 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:30 pm
Just to clarify one last time... I DO NOT need to do anything with the employer documents included in this packet, since my employer will not be contributing to vanguard, but EJ. I have completed the SIMPLE IRA New Acct Form. I just need to figure out where to send it.
Vanguard
P.O. Box 1110
Valley Forge, PA 19482-1110

(Should be on the sheet titled "SIMPLE IRA At A Glance", which is the 2nd page of the file I have)

:beer
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:39 pm

oh.. shyte.. lol. that simple.. I was looking for some digital link to send it. :oops:


This is the document I have.. I think you have to be logged in to open it.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/ElfPDF ... 5071688308

Mr.BB
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by Mr.BB » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:45 pm

Is it possible to open a Brokerage 401k with your plan? That is what I did with my wife's 401k when they made changes over to BlackRock. Now we have contributions going to her regular 401k and the brokerage 401k.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:54 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:39 pm
oh.. shyte.. lol. that simple.. I was looking for some digital link to send it. :oops:


This is the document I have.. I think you have to be logged in to open it.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/ElfPDF ... 5071688308
Ah - slightly different than the one I have. Yeah, it's at the tail end of the doc just preceding the "SIMPLE IRA New Account Form," which looks like it's now called "Form VSAAF." Page 12 of the PDF, in other words.

Yes, snail mail. Quaint, no? :mrgreen:
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:08 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:38 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 am

Is this a Form 5304 SIMPLE IRA or a Form 5305 SIMPLE IRA? The rules are different for using other custodians.

Regardless, I agree that you should contribute at least enough to get the full employer match beach year.
I am not sure, it doesnt say anywhere on my statements, but Im 99% sure its a 5305. Since Im required to go through edward Jones. That said though, Im fully vested so its my money I dont know what would be stopping me from transferring. In fact, the employer cant see my account at all. They only way they know they ammount to match is from my pay stub, at least.. so Im told.
To be sure, I suggest that you get a copy of the form which created the SIMPLE IRA.

Boglehead's wiki wrote:Form 5305-SIMPLE plans do not allow employees the freedom to select their own account custodian. Rather the employer designates the financial institution that all employees must use. If you are unhappy with this choice of financial institution, you would need to work with your employer to change to a better financial institution. Since this requires a modification of the SIMPLE plan itself, such a switch can only be made at the beginning of a calendar year.
. . . . .
Some SIMPLE plans (including those established with the IRS model plan Form 5305-SIMPLE) require the use of a "designated financial institution" as trustee or custodian of the employees' SIMPLE IRA's. In that event, the employees must be given the option of transferring their balances to any other SIMPLE IRA, or, after the 2-year period, any other IRA, without any cost or penalty. The financial institution may require notice prior to the start of a year. Cost-less transfers may be limited to new contributions; surrender penalties could be imposed on withdrawals of past contributions. Monthly transfers are sufficient for this purpose.
Wiki article, "SIMPLE IRA".
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:40 pm

My broker didnt like that email. It went like this....


Me: I would like for you to sell all my assets, and move all current funds and future deposits and match to the Money market

him : Wait. what? I dont think my computer will let me do that. I dont think you can do that. Why would you want to do that?

Me: because I said so.


hehehe. you guys are right. these edward jones guys are nothing more than salesmen. I told my boss today how it could add up to 30% of your portfolio and i think I saw a tear. :mrgreen:

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dougger5
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by dougger5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:11 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:40 pm
My broker didnt like that email. It went like this....


Me: I would like for you to sell all my assets, and move all current funds and future deposits and match to the Money market

him : Wait. what? I dont think my computer will let me do that. I dont think you can do that. Why would you want to do that?

Me: because I said so.


hehehe. you guys are right. these edward jones guys are nothing more than salesmen. I told my boss today how it could add up to 30% of your portfolio and i think I saw a tear. :mrgreen:
Uh...wow. At least American Funds (DW's SIMPLE custodian) lets you choose funds and move stuff around online. Actually, for all their high-fee offerings, I've heard that AF are not so bad among active options out there.

Nonetheless, as a great man once said, "The market goes up, the market goes down. Fees are forever."
Last edited by dougger5 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I've been ionized, but I'm okay now." -Buckaroo Banzai

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 pm

EJ is absolutely Horrible. Live and Learn right? I am going to slowly try to pry out how much they are paying for them to manage the company plan. I bet vanguard is much cheaper.

krow36
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by krow36 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:38 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 pm
EJ is absolutely Horrible. Live and Learn right? I am going to slowly try to pry out how much they are paying for them to manage the company plan. I bet vanguard is much cheaper.
I’ve helped a relative move her small business’ SIMPLE IRA account from EJ to Vanguard. With a SIMPLE IRA, I believe there are no direct charges to the business by either EJ or Vanguard. Vanguard gets by with just the expense ratios of the mutual funds, and a flat charge per fund of $25/yr (if the employee's VG accounts total less the 50k). EJ makes their money from the employees with a Guided Solutions wrap fee of over 1%, a $40/yr fee, as well selling mutual funds with high ERs some of which goes to EJ.

So if a business chooses EJ, the employer and employees get a face-to-face with a rep that is paid for by the employees. The rep takes care of the SIMPLE IRA requirements such as setting up the account and handing out paperwork on time. If the business chooses Vanguard, the employer and the employees get very low cost funds and no wrap fee, but the employer must follow the IRS and Vanguard’s instructions on account setup and on timely paperwork, which is not that difficult.

If a business wanted to give their employees the ability to choose their own financial institution, the employer could use the IRS Form 5304 SIMPLE IRA, which would allow employees to choose EJ or Vanguard or another financial institution. The IRA allows this but probably EJ never suggests it to an employer.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:58 am

jesus christ... now this guy is giving me a hard time about moving funds into the money market....


im really about to flip on this guy.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 am

Can anyone decipher this document? https://www.edwardjones.com/images/guid ... ochure.pdf

specifically the section about leaving "guided solutions" I cant tell if that would force me to shut the account entirely, meaning Id also lose my match, Or if I can just opt out of the advisor functions.


by the way.. i did the math and at my rate of saving, every year my total fees will increase by $72. so this year its 112, next year it will be 184, and so on. thats serious money at retirement age. Ill end up paying them OVER $5000!!! for 10 years worth of management, on an input of less than 4 grand per year. If I stayed with this company for 20 years, never got a pay raise, and paid EJ for 20 years, Id pay them over 20,000!!!! Vanguard advantage after 30 years....150k



Feel free to check my math. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A14u1l ... sp=sharing


thats absolutely RIDICULOUS.
Last edited by JC565 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

krow36
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by krow36 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:54 pm

JCBiggs wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 am
Can anyone decipher this document? https://www.edwardjones.com/images/guid ... ochure.pdf
specifically the section about leaving "guided solutions" I cant tell if that would force me to shut the account entirely, meaning Id also lose my match, Or if I can just opt out of the advisor functions.
I think you are stuck with Guided Solutions.
by the way.. i did the math and at my rate of saving, every year my total fees will increase by $72. so this year its 112, next year it will be 184, and so on. thats serious money at retirement age. Ill end up paying them OVER $5000!!! for 10 years worth of management, on an input of less than 4 grand per year. If I stayed with this company for 20 years, never got a pay raise, and paid EJ for 20 years, Id pay them over 20,000!!!! Vanguard advantage after 30 years....150k

Feel free to check my math. https://drive.google.com/open?id=17ERxi ... fYOAtsmiiy
I didn't check your math because your assumptions are not valid. See below.

Based on the section on Guided Solutions Program fees, there’s a minimum of $10/month or $120/year. If your balance is over $5000, the Program Fee is 1.35% of assets under management. If you had a balance of $10,000 the annual fee would be $135. Yes, it’s unfortunate you are stuck with fees that your employer could have avoided by using Vanguard or Fidelity etc., but the employer’s 3% match makes the SIMPLE worth using in spite of the Program fee.

The solution to this problem is to do the asset transfers from your EJ SIMPLE account to a Vanguard frozen SIMPLE (or to a tIRA if it’s been over 2 years since your first contribution). The IRS rules say that EJ has to make this transfer. The transfer is worked from the Vanguard end, not from the EJ end. Be sure to leave money ($200-$300?) in the EJ SIMPLE account so that they don’t close it. Stay cool and try not to antagonize the EJ reps. I agree it’s annoying to have to use this workaround, but you are fortunate to have it. Many employees have a high fee 401k or 403b plan with no employer match and no workaround.

JC565
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by JC565 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 pm

krow36 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:54 pm

Based on the section on Guided Solutions Program fees, there’s a minimum of $10/month or $120/year. If your balance is over $5000, the Program Fee is 1.35% of assets under management. If you had a balance of $10,000 the annual fee would be $135. Yes, it’s unfortunate you are stuck with fees that your employer could have avoided by using Vanguard or Fidelity etc., but the employer’s 3% match makes the SIMPLE worth using in spite of the Program fee. for clarification, the 5000 and 20000 I quoted are over the lifetime of the account.

I dont know how that is different that what I calculated. As far as I can tell The fees are separate and neither of them go away. (unlike vanguard where the fee goes away after 50k) My sheet carves out the annual 40 dollar fee(which i assume was a negotiated rate,) the 1.35% program fee and the fund fees. Even if the 1.35% doest apply under 5k, that really doesnt matter since its only the 1st year. every year there after will have the program fee.


Also, based on what Im seeing from my math, assuming a constant rate of saving, its only worth taking the match for a few years. at which point you should move all the money to vanguard and not worry about the match. But as you said, the work around is that you can transfer to the frozen simple so its a moot point.


Nonetheless.. I talked with my boss about this at lunch. I feel good about the numbers unless someone can tell me exactly whats wrong. EJ was in place before he bought the place and he said hes very willing to take a look at moving everything over to vanguard. Regardless Ill get this $ moved one way or another.

heres the link again if anyone wants to take a look. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A14u1l ... sp=sharing


im certainly not above reproach, if something is wrong there, please let me know.



EDIT... OK I Was slightly incorrect about the fees. the annual fee is $40 or 1.35% once you are over 5000. When i set up the account it was explained to me that the $40 was annual and there was no mention of the 1.35% at all. I will adjust my calculation sheet to reflect this, but its not going to be a drastic change.

krow36
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by krow36 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:51 am

Your table is impressive. I’m not really able to follow all the logic of your columns or how you calculate everything. It’s great that your boss is willing to listen to you and consider changing providers next year.

I think the current EJ SIMPLE IRA is it for 2018. Next October is the time to organize for 2019. The IRS Form 5305 is passed out to all employees before Nov 2. The Vanguard forms to get the accounts set up should probably be sent in around that time also.

This tool compares the cost over time of 2 funds with yearly contributions: http://www.begintoinvest.com/expense-ratio-calculator/

This Vanguard tool calculates the costs over time for 2 funds, starting with the same principal and assuming the same rate of return. All the inputs can be changed (scroll down on final screen) and so any 2 funds can be selected and the input numbers changed. It also calculates the outperformance needed for the more expensive fund to produce the same outcome. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/FundsCostCompare

This table shows the effect of fees over time. https://vanguardblog.com/2011/10/28/sto ... f-returns/

I'm not sure but suspect that EJ levels both the $40 SIMPLE IRA fee and the 1.35% Guided Solutions fee. Have they told you otherwise?

tibbitts
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Re: Edward Jones - help

Post by tibbitts » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:03 am

krow36 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:54 pm
JCBiggs wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 am
Can anyone decipher this document? https://www.edwardjones.com/images/guid ... ochure.pdf
specifically the section about leaving "guided solutions" I cant tell if that would force me to shut the account entirely, meaning Id also lose my match, Or if I can just opt out of the advisor functions.
I think you are stuck with Guided Solutions.
by the way.. i did the math and at my rate of saving, every year my total fees will increase by $72. so this year its 112, next year it will be 184, and so on. thats serious money at retirement age. Ill end up paying them OVER $5000!!! for 10 years worth of management, on an input of less than 4 grand per year. If I stayed with this company for 20 years, never got a pay raise, and paid EJ for 20 years, Id pay them over 20,000!!!! Vanguard advantage after 30 years....150k

Feel free to check my math. https://drive.google.com/open?id=17ERxi ... fYOAtsmiiy
I didn't check your math because your assumptions are not valid. See below.

Based on the section on Guided Solutions Program fees, there’s a minimum of $10/month or $120/year. If your balance is over $5000, the Program Fee is 1.35% of assets under management. If you had a balance of $10,000 the annual fee would be $135. Yes, it’s unfortunate you are stuck with fees that your employer could have avoided by using Vanguard or Fidelity etc., but the employer’s 3% match makes the SIMPLE worth using in spite of the Program fee.

The solution to this problem is to do the asset transfers from your EJ SIMPLE account to a Vanguard frozen SIMPLE (or to a tIRA if it’s been over 2 years since your first contribution). The IRS rules say that EJ has to make this transfer. The transfer is worked from the Vanguard end, not from the EJ end.Be sure to leave money ($200-$300?) in the EJ SIMPLE account so that they don’t close it. Stay cool and try not to antagonize the EJ reps. I agree it’s annoying to have to use this workaround, but you are fortunate to have it. Many employees have a high fee 401k or 403b plan with no employer match and no workaround.
I wanted to comment on the highlighted portion specifically. I've dealt with both Vanguard and Fidelity in this respect, and the bottom line is this: they can only work with the "back office" operations of another brokerage. Nobody in the back office is authorized to transfer anything anywhere unless that's the business model of the brokerage holding your money - which it often isn't at a full-service brokerage. The order has to come from the sales side of the brokerage. If the authorizations from the sales side are in place, VG or Fidelity back office types can communicate with their counterparts at another brokerage to facilitate a transfer. If that authorization isn't in place, VG or Fidelity can't help you obtain it. Yes, legally, the brokerage holding your money has to make the transfer, and yes, you can eventually pry your money loose, but nobody - maybe except for an attorney you hire - can help you do that other than the sales side of the brokerage. I guess I can't say for sure that if serious money is involved there might not be more assistance forthcoming, but I can say for a fact that with only a few hundred thousand dollars at stake, you're completely on your own.

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