Did I just make rookie mistake?

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no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm

Good afternoon all,

Why do I feel as though I just made a rookie investment mistake? Transferred funds into taxable account and purchased two separate lifecycle funds. The transaction went through and the following day I'm down 1.55%. I checked the distributions and see that a dividend just paid out and immediately face palmed. Could I have avoided this by waiting until the dividends and capital gains paid out before buying into the fund?

Some of you may be wondering why I bought these funds in the first place. So here it goes. I moved monies from my kids' savings accounts into a mutual fund within my taxable account in order to expose the savings to the market. Didn't exactly want it going into UGMA/UTMA and they don't earn income yet so no Roth IRA. Chose two separate funds as to differentiate and make withdrawals later on down the road simpler.

rkhusky
Posts: 4823
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:41 pm

no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm
Transferred funds into taxable account and purchased two separate lifecycle funds. The transaction went through and the following day I'm down 1.55%. I checked the distributions and see that a dividend just paid out and immediately face palmed. Could I have avoided this by waiting until the dividends and capital gains paid out before buying into the fund?
You could have avoided the dividends for a while, depending on how often the funds pays dividends. But you shouldn't be down 1.55%. You will just be down the taxes paid on the dividends. The dividends should show up in your account in a day or two.

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:41 pm
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm
Transferred funds into taxable account and purchased two separate lifecycle funds. The transaction went through and the following day I'm down 1.55%. I checked the distributions and see that a dividend just paid out and immediately face palmed. Could I have avoided this by waiting until the dividends and capital gains paid out before buying into the fund?
You could have avoided the dividends for a while, depending on how often the funds pays dividends. But you shouldn't be down 1.55%. You will just be down the taxes paid on the dividends. The dividends should show up in your account in a day or two.
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.

TropikThunder
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by TropikThunder » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:04 am

no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
If you have dividends reinvested (often the default mode), you'll end up with additional shares equal to the dollar amount of the dividend on the "reinvest date". If you don't have dividends reinvested, that money will end up in your settlement account on the "payable date." But either way the total dollar amount of the account is unchanged by having generated the dividend.

Basically what you did was what is termed "buying the dividend", meaning you bought the shares right before the dividend was paid which generates a taxable event (depending on your tax bracket) that leaves you back where you started. Some may indeed call it a rookie mistake, but it seems like it wasn't a huge transaction and I'm confident you'll never do it again. :D

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:10 am

TropikThunder wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:04 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
If you have dividends reinvested (often the default mode), you'll end up with additional shares equal to the dollar amount of the dividend on the "reinvest date". If you don't have dividends reinvested, that money will end up in your settlement account on the "payable date." But either way the total dollar amount of the account is unchanged by having generated the dividend.

Basically what you did was what is termed "buying the dividend", meaning you bought the shares right before the dividend was paid which generates a taxable event (depending on your tax bracket). Some may indeed call it a rookie mistake, but it seems like it wasn't a huge transaction and I'm confident you'll never do it again. :D
Thanks for the explanation. I'll keep an eye out for the dividends to be reinvested and account balance to reflect near what I contributed. Question: Once the dividend is reinvested and account balance reflects, will the fund still show as negative since the share price is now 1.55% lower than when I bought it?

You are correct, it appears I "bought the dividend." I definitely wasn't taking into account the end of year distribution when considering this, but you're right, I won't be doing that again! ;)

venkman
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by venkman » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:19 am

no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
Yes, you'll have more shares at $39.33 (It usually takes a day or so for them to show up in my VG account), and your total dollar amount should be exactly what you invested, +/- however much the share price moved from market activity today (looks like it was up about 10 cents).

VFFVX distributes dividends annually, so you unfortunately bought the entire year's worth of dividends. But unless your kids had multiple tens of thousands of dollars in their savings account, it's not that big a deal in terms of absolute dollars.

TG2
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:50 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by TG2 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:23 am

no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:41 pm
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm
Transferred funds into taxable account and purchased two separate lifecycle funds. The transaction went through and the following day I'm down 1.55%. I checked the distributions and see that a dividend just paid out and immediately face palmed. Could I have avoided this by waiting until the dividends and capital gains paid out before buying into the fund?
You could have avoided the dividends for a while, depending on how often the funds pays dividends. But you shouldn't be down 1.55%. You will just be down the taxes paid on the dividends. The dividends should show up in your account in a day or two.
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
The $39.95 is the 12/27 price which was determined after the market closed. That is also the record date for the distribution so it appears you should get the dividend. The reinvest date is 12/28 and the payable date is 12/29. Most likely the dividends will show up in your account end of day tomorrow, but they will be taxable this year. Delaying your purchase a couple days would have meant that you bought at a lower price and had no dividend payout, so nothing taxable yet. The number of shares will increase if you have dividends reinvested, but the cost per share will change based on the price the dividends were invested at. The dividends have no effect on the value of your holding. The price went down by the amount of the dividend. It's a wash, other than taxes for the year.

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:25 am

venkman wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:19 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
Yes, you'll have more shares at $39.33 (It usually takes a day or so for them to show up in my VG account), and your total dollar amount should be exactly what you invested, +/- however much the share price moved from market activity today (looks like it was up about 10 cents).

VFFVX distributes dividends annually, so you unfortunately bought the entire year's worth of dividends. But unless your kids had multiple tens of thousands of dollars in their savings account, it's not that big a deal in terms of absolute dollars.
Thanks for the reply, venkman. I learned a good lesson today and am feeling much better now that the group has educated me. I'm able to laugh it off now as the timing couldn't have been worse. I'm thankful the "taxable event" I created is insignificant, but wouldn't mind it so much if their accounts were in the tens of thousands, because well...

TropikThunder
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by TropikThunder » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:27 am

no_surrender wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:10 am
Thanks for the explanation. I'll keep an eye out for the dividends to be reinvested and account balance to reflect near what I contributed. Question: Once the dividend is reinvested and account balance reflects, will the fund still show as negative since the share price is now 1.55% lower than when I bought it?
You definitely won't be 1.55% down since you'll own more shares. For example, say you bought 20 shares on 12-27-2017 at $39.95, totaling $799.00. On 12-28-2018, the dividend of $0.71790/share posted, totaling $14.36. Now you have 20 shares at $39.33 [$786.60] + a dividend [$14.36] totaling $800.96 (meaning the fund increased a little but you couldn't see it because of the dividend). The dividend will reinvest tonight at the NAV that just posted of $39.33 and your $14.36 dividend will be used to purchase 0.365 shares, giving you 20.365 shares at $39.33 = $800.96. The 1.55% drop is thus temporary while the second half (reinvestment) processes since the dividend hasn't posted yet.

You can see the dates and recent distributions on the fund profile page at Vanguard (Distributions tab):
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... true#tab=4

Record Date: 12-27-2017 means the dividend goes to whoever owns the share at the close of business that day (which is you since you just bought it)
Reinvest Date: 12-28-2017 means the dividend is used to purchase new shares at the NAV for that date
Payable Date: 12-29-217 means the date the dividend would be paid into your settlement fund if you didn't reinvest them.

(Note the terms are slightly different for ETFs but the concept is the same).

ETA: if three people give you the same answer it must be right! :P

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:42 am

TG2 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:23 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:55 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:41 pm
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm
Transferred funds into taxable account and purchased two separate lifecycle funds. The transaction went through and the following day I'm down 1.55%. I checked the distributions and see that a dividend just paid out and immediately face palmed. Could I have avoided this by waiting until the dividends and capital gains paid out before buying into the fund?
You could have avoided the dividends for a while, depending on how often the funds pays dividends. But you shouldn't be down 1.55%. You will just be down the taxes paid on the dividends. The dividends should show up in your account in a day or two.
The account shows cost basis of $39.95 per share for VFFVX which transacted/settled 28 Dec. Today's closing price, one day later, is $39.33 or down 1.55% and the account balance reflects. So even though I've only owned the fund for one day, the dividend should reinvest into my account? I'm still a bit confused. Once the dividends show up, the balance and/or number of shares will increase, correct? But the cost per share will remain the same reflecting the fund is down 1.55%? A similar fund I have with Fidelity is down over 2% due to the dividends distributing. Perhaps I need to brush up on this topic.
The $39.95 is the 12/27 price which was determined after the market closed. That is also the record date for the distribution so it appears you should get the dividend. The reinvest date is 12/28 and the payable date is 12/29. Most likely the dividends will show up in your account end of day tomorrow, but they will be taxable this year. Delaying your purchase a couple days would have meant that you bought at a lower price and had no dividend payout, so nothing taxable yet. The number of shares will increase if you have dividends reinvested, but the cost per share will change based on the price the dividends were invested at. The dividends have no effect on the value of your holding. The price went down by the amount of the dividend. It's a wash, other than taxes for the year.
Thank you for the explanation and quick reply. Great group here!
TropikThunder wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:27 am
no_surrender wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:10 am
Thanks for the explanation. I'll keep an eye out for the dividends to be reinvested and account balance to reflect near what I contributed. Question: Once the dividend is reinvested and account balance reflects, will the fund still show as negative since the share price is now 1.55% lower than when I bought it?
You definitely won't be 1.55% down since you'll own more shares. For example, say you bought 20 shares on 12-27-2017 at $39.95, totaling $799.00. On 12-28-2018, the dividend of $0.71790/share posted, totaling $14.36. Now you have 20 shares at $39.33 [$786.60] + a dividend [$14.36] totaling $800.96 (meaning the fund increased a little but you couldn't see it because of the dividend). The dividend will reinvest tonight at the NAV that just posted of $39.33 and your $14.36 dividend will be used to purchase 0.365 shares, giving you 20.365 shares at $39.33 = $800.96. The 1.55% drop is thus temporary while the second half (reinvestment) processes since the dividend hasn't posted yet.

You can see the dates and recent distributions on the fund profile page at Vanguard (Distributions tab):
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... true#tab=4

Record Date: 12-27-2017 means the dividend goes to whoever owns the share at the close of business that day (which is you since you just bought it)
Reinvest Date: 12-28-2017 means the dividend is used to purchase new shares at the NAV for that date
Payable Date: 12-29-217 means the date the dividend would be paid into your settlement fund if you didn't reinvest them.

(Note the terms are slightly different for ETFs but the concept is the same).

ETA: if three people give you the same answer it must be right! :P
Thanks for the follow up! Along with yours and the other members' replies, this now makes perfect sense to me. Hope you all have a blessed New Year!

mortfree
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by mortfree » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:08 am

no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm


Some of you may be wondering why I bought these funds in the first place. So here it goes. I moved monies from my kids' savings accounts into a mutual fund within my taxable account in order to expose the savings to the market. Didn't exactly want it going into UGMA/UTMA and they don't earn income yet so no Roth IRA. Chose two separate funds as to differentiate and make withdrawals later on down the road simpler.
Did you remove money from a UTMA/UGMA savings account and put it under your name? Or was their savings earmarked in one of your accounts?

If the money was in UTMA then I believe that is against the rules.

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:18 pm

mortfree wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:08 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm


Some of you may be wondering why I bought these funds in the first place. So here it goes. I moved monies from my kids' savings accounts into a mutual fund within my taxable account in order to expose the savings to the market. Didn't exactly want it going into UGMA/UTMA and they don't earn income yet so no Roth IRA. Chose two separate funds as to differentiate and make withdrawals later on down the road simpler.
Did you remove money from a UTMA/UGMA savings account and put it under your name? Or was their savings earmarked in one of your accounts?

If the money was in UTMA then I believe that is against the rules.
Thank you for pointing out the possibility that I might have engaged in criminal activity. However, you may have misunderstood or perhaps I wasn't clear. All accounts are in my name, but the funds are earmarked for my kids. I transferred monies from a "high yield" savings account to my taxable brokerage account with Vanguard then into the lifecycle mutual funds. The funds are earmarked for my kids and I wanted more control over how/when it will be used so I did this as opposed to opening a UTMA/UGMA. :)

mortfree
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by mortfree » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:29 pm

no_surrender wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:18 pm
mortfree wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:08 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm


Some of you may be wondering why I bought these funds in the first place. So here it goes. I moved monies from my kids' savings accounts into a mutual fund within my taxable account in order to expose the savings to the market. Didn't exactly want it going into UGMA/UTMA and they don't earn income yet so no Roth IRA. Chose two separate funds as to differentiate and make withdrawals later on down the road simpler.
Did you remove money from a UTMA/UGMA savings account and put it under your name? Or was their savings earmarked in one of your accounts?

If the money was in UTMA then I believe that is against the rules.
Thank you for pointing out the possibility that I might have engaged in criminal activity. However, you may have misunderstood or perhaps I wasn't clear. All accounts are in my name, but the funds are earmarked for my kids. I transferred monies from a "high yield" savings account to my taxable brokerage account with Vanguard then into the lifecycle mutual funds. The funds are earmarked for my kids and I wanted more control over how/when it will be used so I did this as opposed to opening a UTMA/UGMA. :)
OK, wasn't sure how to interpret moving money from kids' savings accounts to your taxable account. Also thought it would be helpful to point out for others who read this and may believe it was ok to take from a UTMA and move into the adult's account.

:sharebeer

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:04 pm

mortfree wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:29 pm
no_surrender wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:18 pm
mortfree wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:08 am
no_surrender wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm


Some of you may be wondering why I bought these funds in the first place. So here it goes. I moved monies from my kids' savings accounts into a mutual fund within my taxable account in order to expose the savings to the market. Didn't exactly want it going into UGMA/UTMA and they don't earn income yet so no Roth IRA. Chose two separate funds as to differentiate and make withdrawals later on down the road simpler.
Did you remove money from a UTMA/UGMA savings account and put it under your name? Or was their savings earmarked in one of your accounts?

If the money was in UTMA then I believe that is against the rules.
Thank you for pointing out the possibility that I might have engaged in criminal activity. However, you may have misunderstood or perhaps I wasn't clear. All accounts are in my name, but the funds are earmarked for my kids. I transferred monies from a "high yield" savings account to my taxable brokerage account with Vanguard then into the lifecycle mutual funds. The funds are earmarked for my kids and I wanted more control over how/when it will be used so I did this as opposed to opening a UTMA/UGMA. :)
OK, wasn't sure how to interpret moving money from kids' savings accounts to your taxable account. Also thought it would be helpful to point out for others who read this and may believe it was ok to take from a UTMA and move into the adult's account.

:sharebeer
I went back to check and make sure. The savings accounts were with Capital One as Kids Savings Account which aren't the same as a trust...it's a joint account. I may actually set up a UTMA at a later time but with different funds for a different purpose. Good looking out though! :sharebeer

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badbreath
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Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by badbreath » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:26 pm

Only issue I have with the lifecycle funds in your portfolio vs a 529 ar the bonds which are not very tax efficient in a taxable account. Something to think about.
“While money can’t buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” Groucho Marx

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sometimesinvestor
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Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by sometimesinvestor » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:06 pm

If you still have trouble understanding just follow the rule: Don't buy mutual funds in December ina taxable account. OF course you now know
1. You made a rookie mistake
2 Its not that big a deal and all of us have and will make bigger mistakes.

booch221
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Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by booch221 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:10 pm

Always check when the fund pays dividends before you make changes to your taxable account, most are quarterly, some twice a year, and this one only once an year.

no_surrender
Posts: 82
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Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:59 am

badbreath wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:26 pm
Only issue I have with the lifecycle funds in your portfolio vs a 529 ar the bonds which are not very tax efficient in a taxable account. Something to think about.
The funds are close to 90/10 stocks/bonds so there's not a whole lot of exposure to bonds. One major reason I chose the life cycle funds though is the amount of funds available at the moment. The savings accounts were >$1K, but <$3K so my options were very limited. Might I ask what funds you'd recommend once the balance exceeds $3K in order to sell/buy?

Edit: Forgot to mention, we're already funding a 529 via Maryland College Savings Plan. We simply wanted to expose the savings to the market as opposed to earning the measly .75% (now 1%) annual interest rate offered by the bank. The funds will not be withdrawn for another 3-6 years for our oldest two. I'll be transferring our youngest's (10 month old) savings into the taxable account as well very soon. I'm pretty excited to watch her savings grow!

no_surrender
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by no_surrender » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:07 am

sometimesinvestor wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:06 pm
If you still have trouble understanding just follow the rule: Don't buy mutual funds in December ina taxable account. OF course you now know
1. You made a rookie mistake
2 Its not that big a deal and all of us have and will make bigger mistakes.
Sometimes learning by mistakes or through failure is the best way to learn...or at least the most effective way of making the lesson stick. :)
booch221 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:10 pm
Always check when the fund pays dividends before you make changes to your taxable account, most are quarterly, some twice a year, and this one only once an year.
Thanks for the advice. Doing a little light reading to further my education on this topic. 8-)

3funder
Posts: 262
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Re: Did I just make rookie mistake?

Post by 3funder » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:07 am

Yes, you made a "rookie" mistake, but it's a minor one. In the future, it's most tax-efficient to invest at the beginning of the year if you are utilizing a taxable account; if that's not possible, dollar-cost averaging works just fine.

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