Dave Ramsey Style Vanguard Portfolio?

[peterwantstosave]

Dave Ramsey advocates an investing philosophy that is split between Growth, Growth and Income, Aggressive Growth and International.

Would the following meet those guidelines?

1) Morgan Growth (Growth)
2) Vanguard 500 Index (Growth & Income)
3) Vanguard Explorer (Aggressive Growth)
4) Vanguard Total Intl Stock (International)

Thank you, Peter

[Nate79]

My understanding is that when he says growth he does not mean the classification we typically think of growth (vs blend and value). I believe the 4 categories correspond to large cap, mid cap, small cap and international. In fact in some calls he will explain his classification means large, mid, small and international.

[peterwantstosave]

So, like this?

Vanguard Large-Cap Index Fund Inv (Growth and Income)
Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund Inv (Growth)
Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund Inv (Aggressive Growth)
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Ix Inv (International)

Thank you, Peter

[tesuzuki2002]

So, like this?

Vanguard Large-Cap Index Fund Inv (Growth and Income)
Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund Inv (Growth)
Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund Inv (Aggressive Growth)
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Ix Inv (International)

Thank you, Peter

If you are looking to go down this avenue... I can't say it is wrong... I didn't look at these specific options.. A key factor in the Vanguard Style you call it... Is minimizing ER fees. If these do that along with giving you Growth, Growth and Income, Aggressive Growth, and International then it's a win if you are looking for that also.

[whodidntante]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

[Taylor Larimore]

Dave Ramsey advocates an investing philosophy that is split between Growth, Growth and Income, Aggressive Growth and International.

Would the following meet those guidelines?

1) Morgan Growth (Growth)
2) Vanguard 500 Index (Growth & Income)
3) Vanguard Explorer (Aggressive Growth)
4) Vanguard Total Intl Stock (International)

Thank you, Peter

peterwantstosave:

Knowledgeable investors listen to Jack Bogle--not Dave Ramsey.

Check out The Three-Fund Portfolio.

Best wishes and Happy Holiday!
Taylor

[badbreath]

today (12-20-17) Dave had a big rant against index funds. He and his investor pros showed how 50% of the mutual fund beat the S&P 500. He forgot or ignored fees (1%-2.5%). After fees you will not beat the passive investing in the S&P or Total Stock market fund.

read what Taylor has to say

Knowledgeable investors listen to Jack Bogle--not Dave Ramsey.

Check out The Three-Fund Portfolio.

[peterwantstosave]

Thank you both.

[Helo80]

today (12-20-17) Dave had a big rant against index funds. He and his investor pros showed how 50% of the mutual fund beat the S&P 500. He forgot or ignored fees (1%-2.5%). After fees you will not beat the passive investing in the S&P or Total Stock market fund.

Dave does to index funds, but in his taxable accounts. For IRA and 401k, he likes his four-fund style portfolio above.

[peterwantstosave]

So, I can buy this in my Schwab account for $3

SWTSX (Total Stock: $1)
SWISX (International Stock: $1)
SWAGX (Aggregate Bond: $1)

and I can scale this to infinity, correct?

Thank you all.

Peter

[Helo80]

So, I can buy this in my Schwab account for $3

SWTSX (Total Stock: $1)
SWISX (International Stock: $1)
SWAGX (Aggregate Bond: $1)

and I can scale this to infinity, correct?

Thank you all.

Peter

Correct; if you are interested in going Taylor's 3-fund route, that would work. I confirmed that Total Stock and International Stock allow $1 buy-ins on schwab.com

The only question is now what ratio you want your monies in. At what you mention above, domestic equity, international equity and bonds are equally weighted.

[badbreath]

Post by Helo80 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:32 pm

badbreath wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:25 pm
today (12-20-17) Dave had a big rant against index funds. He and his investor pros showed how 50% of the mutual fund beat the S&P 500. He forgot or ignored fees (1%-2.5%). After fees you will not beat the passive investing in the S&P or Total Stock market fund.


Dave does to index funds, but in his taxable accounts. For IRA and 401k, he likes his four-fund style portfolio above.

OK put what he suggests in your tax deferred IRA,401K and put bonds in taxable does that make sense.

www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement

[peterwantstosave]

Thank you again.

Happy Holidays!

Peter

[aristotelian]

Wouldn't "Growth and Income" include some bonds, something like Vanguard Balanced Index or perhaps Wellington?

[supernova]

While Dave Ramsey's budgeting advice and "get out of debt now" advice are amazing, his investment advice is not so amazing. He once mentioned the a mutual fund that he was in, and it happened to be an American Fund fund with a 5.75% load fee.

Go with what people like Jack Bogle and Warren Buffet say and stick with indexing.

[lakja]

Dave Ramsey targets a low income, high debt consumer usually with poor self-control. I wouldn’t recommend listening to him even for his sub-optimal debt repayment strategies. I’d definitely not recommend listening to any investment strategies he may offer.

[Tyler Aspect]

Dave Ramsey's investing advice is vastly inferior to his debt reduction angles. Do debt reduction with Dave Ramsey, and investing with Bogleheads.

[deltaneutral83]

While Dave Ramsey's budgeting advice and "get out of debt now" advice are amazing, his investment advice is not so amazing. He once mentioned the a mutual fund that he was in, and it happened to be an American Fund fund with a 5.75% load fee.

Well for one, Dave ain't paying 0.01% load, as his assets blow right through any and all breakpoints for any fund company, in fact they probably pay him (just kidding). Two, 5.75% up front for the last 30 years in his american funds portfolio would be monumentally better than the average BH who picks single stocks or has ever picked single stocks to build out their own portfolio. It's also better than 1.5% AUM year over year. I doubt Ramsey promotes guys that use the 5.75% up front load AND 1-1.5% AUM. 5.75% up front for American Funds is better than any year over year AUM in the 1-2% range when you bake in 30 years worth of investing. Or even 10 years of investing at those rates but I'm sure someone will post the excel results of the break even on a 5.75% up front load and an annual 1.5% AUM.

Going forward there is zero compelling evidence that Dave will outperform a 3 fund (when comparing apples to apples as Ramsey is 25% in small caps and the 3F is no where close) and if you have the capability, it would be wise to use the 3F. If you have no idea what a stock or bond is like 75% of this country, his advice will get you exactly where you need to be. I've explained indexing to friends that aced medical school and I get looks like I am a UFO. Dave's strategy isn't optimal in a vacuum, but works just fine for those that do not educate themselves.

[dbr]

I would ignore Ramsey for investing advice and I would not try thinking of assets using that terminology. That language is undefined, confusing, and not helpful.

Going even further, I would recommend simply investing in the total market and not try to pick funds to represent some kind of categories. The best ideas are here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Three-fund_portfolio

[John Laurens]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

+infinity

Regards,
John

[lolbatross]

Dave Ramsey advocates an investing philosophy that is split between Growth, Growth and Income, Aggressive Growth and International.

Would the following meet those guidelines?

1) Morgan Growth (Growth)
2) Vanguard 500 Index (Growth & Income)
3) Vanguard Explorer (Aggressive Growth)
4) Vanguard Total Intl Stock (International)

Thank you, Peter

Peter,

I listen to Dave Ramsey sometimes as I have a friend who proctors the class at his church and its fun to discuss. On a recent show Dave challenged the "myth" that you can't beat the market and thus should use indexes. He concluded that a monkey can beat the market half the time (implying you should be able to do better). Per Dave you should find a mutual fund with a long track record that has out performed the market. As such using index funds does not follow the Dave Ramsey way.

The flaw in Dave's investment selection method is he is ignoring survivorship bias and thus discounting the advantages of indexing. If it was really as simple as he says we would all do it. There are numerous academic studies that have found that past out performance is not a strong indicator of future out performance.

Dave is great because he has a simple system that will work for most people. This is similar to how Ameriprise or Edward Jones is great compared to just not investing and buying more junk. If you can take the wheel for yourself you will do better than what DR or EJ will have you do.

[Jags4186]

The fact that Dave Ramsey describes Aggressive Growth as either SMALL CAP or EMERGING MARKETS tells me everything I need to know about his investment advice.

[LEB1230]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

I met with two different ones earlier this year. One was pushing American Funds and the other never pushed any funds. The second gave more general advise and looked at my current overall situation. I will say that my meetings with them did lead me to doing further investing research which ultimately lead me to a Jack Bogle book and then to this site. I'll be doing investing on my own utilizing a three fund portfolio because of that so while I'm not following his principles on investing his advice did lead me to a better understanding of investing.

[nisiprius]

Why do you want a "Dave Ramsey Style Vanguard Portfolio?" What is your reason for not going with an actual Dave Ramsey portfolio, using specific funds he recommends?

Dave Ramsey's investing style just doesn't line up with the Bogleheads investment philosophy. I think it's bad advice, but it's your money and your responsibility, and you are the one who needs to be comfortable with your decision.

I have the impression that whenever he recommends specific funds by name, they are members of the American Funds family. The worst feature of American Funds is that they carry a sales load. Although they are actively managed funds, their expense ratios are, let's say, moderate. For example, two funds he's mentioned by name are American Growth Fund of America, AGTHX, and American Funds Investment Company of America, AIVSX. Their respective expense ratios are 0.64% and 0.60%, which Morningstar chooses to describe as "low." It is not a terrible fund company by any means.

To me, the fact that Ramsey recommends 100% stocks is far worse than his choice of the particular fund company. (And worse yet is his dogged insistence on misrepresenting the average return of the S&P 500, and his wildly optimistic numbers for safe withdrawal rates).

So, here's my point. I don't think it really makes sense to go with a "Dave Ramsey style Vanguard Portfolio." If, for whatever reason, you have decided that you trust Ramsey and wish to follow his investment advice, I think you might as well go all the way and follow his recommendations completely. If you agree with him about holding 100% stocks, and you agree with him on his recommended investment categories, shouldn't you agree with his insistence that actively managed mutual funds are superior to index funds? Why not just go ahead and use the actual funds he recommends? At least, then, having decided to follow his investment advice in a general way, you know you'll be doing it "right"--according to what he thinks is right.

[lostdog]

today (12-20-17) Dave had a big rant against index funds. He and his investor pros showed how 50% of the mutual fund beat the S&P 500. He forgot or ignored fees (1%-2.5%). After fees you will not beat the passive investing in the S&P or Total Stock market fund.

read what Taylor has to say

Knowledgeable investors listen to Jack Bogle--not Dave Ramsey.

Check out The Three-Fund Portfolio.

I heard this also. He is getting desperate to protect his high fee endorsed local providers. I am starting to wonder if he gets a sweet kick back from this.

[lostdog]

Dave Ramsey's investing advice is vastly inferior to his debt reduction angles. Do debt reduction with Dave Ramsey, and investing with Bogleheads.

+1 I agree. Solid plan.

[Jags4186]

I would like to add that you can invest in Dave Ramsey's recommended American Funds without a load via Fidelity (and perhaps Schwab?). They now offer no load versions of many of their mutual funds, albeit with higher ongoing expense ratios.

[supernova]

today (12-20-17) Dave had a big rant against index funds. He and his investor pros showed how 50% of the mutual fund beat the S&P 500. He forgot or ignored fees (1%-2.5%). After fees you will not beat the passive investing in the S&P or Total Stock market fund.

read what Taylor has to say

Knowledgeable investors listen to Jack Bogle--not Dave Ramsey.

Check out The Three-Fund Portfolio.

I heard this also. He is getting desperate to protect his high fee endorsed local providers. I am starting to wonder if he gets a sweet kick back from this.

I would imagine he does. He endorsed Zander identity theft insurance, which makes me think they are giving him a nice sum to do so.

[deltaneutral83]

The fact that Dave Ramsey describes Aggressive Growth as either SMALL CAP or EMERGING MARKETS tells me everything I need to know about his investment advice.

You are not his target audience. I talk about football to my mother in terminology that is much different than I do my die hard fantasy football league.

[dbr]

The fact that Dave Ramsey describes Aggressive Growth as either SMALL CAP or EMERGING MARKETS tells me everything I need to know about his investment advice.

You are not his target audience. I talk about football to my mother in terminology that is much different than I do my die hard fantasy football league.

There is a point there that growth is supposed mean higher return. It takes some esoteric knowledge to recognize that Fama-French tells us that growth stocks have less return than value stocks. It also takes some detailed knowledge to realize that the growth in "growth and income" is not the same as the growth in "growth index."

[Jags4186]

The fact that Dave Ramsey describes Aggressive Growth as either SMALL CAP or EMERGING MARKETS tells me everything I need to know about his investment advice.

You are not his target audience. I talk about football to my mother in terminology that is much different than I do my die hard fantasy football league.

It doesn’t matter if I’m his intended target or not. Having 25% of your assets either in emerging markets or US small cap stocks is an extremely different investment. It’s like saying you should have some of your assets in tech and you can get tech into your portfolio by investing in “Bitcoin” or “Apple, Inc.”. Sure both are technology related but one is an immensly profitable company that prints money and another is a speculative currency play.

I mean look at how different US Small Cap performs vs Emerging markets:

[Call_Me_Op]

The fact that Dave Ramsey describes Aggressive Growth as either SMALL CAP or EMERGING MARKETS tells me everything I need to know about his investment advice.

You are not his target audience. I talk about football to my mother in terminology that is much different than I do my die hard fantasy football league.

There is a point there that growth is supposed mean higher return. It takes some esoteric knowledge to recognize that Fama-French tells us that growth stocks have less return than value stocks. It also takes some detailed knowledge to realize that the growth in "growth and income" is not the same as the growth in "growth index."

That's a good point, but I have never heard Dave clarify that. I do not know if his definition of "growth stocks" is the same as the academics.

[Katietsu]

My impression is that his terminology corresponds with the terminology used by American Funds. This is not consistent with the terminology used in the general investing world. It is also obvious that he does not intend that anyone implement an investing strategy on their own based upon his on air advice. He expects them to go to one of his “Smartvestor Pros”. They are financial advisors from whom he does receive remuneration for steering clients their way. The exact financial arrangement was changed a year or two ago to limit his liability. I have not listened to his program in a while so I do not know what tack his current rants have taken.

You can do a lot worse than being invested in American Funds through an FA that buys and holds and provides complete financial advice. I say this as someone who “looks over the shoulder” of an America Funds investor. While those on this board are all behind DIY, most people out there are incapable or unwilling to became knowledgeable enough to go it alone. I know many of us have that concern about our own spouse!

The biggest problem that I have with his investing advice is his optimistic view of how much you need to save to provide for an adequate retirement income. I think that this is part of his motivational style but he is attaching it to actual retirement calculators. Though, what do I know, his positive outlook has been more accurate than my expectations the last few years.

[Nate79]

We do not need another Dave Ramsey bash thread. I think the OP's question was answered.

[whodidntante]

You can buy American funds load waived now, and I guess you have to if you believe the investment advice of the shouting Tennesseean.

[Dottie57]

Thank you both.

I think Dave Ramsey is great for debt reduction. For investing please listen to the Bogleheads. Our style is simple and it does work.

[Jack FFR1846]

I believe strongly in Dave's pros and their new motto that pretty well covers their investment strategy: "You can buy better, but you can't pay more".

[peterwantstosave]

I appreciate all the insight. Looking at Vanguard funds yesterday and today, Vanguard LifeStrategy Growth Inv VASGX looks like it has everything I will probably ever need and then some.

Bought the Vanguard STAR fund to get my feet wet yesterday. So far so good.

Dave helped me get out of debt (YAY) but I agree that it is nonsense to pay extra for guidance.

Moreover, I am kind of surprised Dave doesn't advocate a Bogleheads style, seeing as he is so personal behavior focused on the debt side.

I am loving being a part of the Boglehead community. Thank you for having me.

Peter

[cheapindexer]

Just remembered a previous Dave Ramsey post where someone replied :

When net worth less than zero listen to Dave Ramsey

When net worth greater than zero listen to bogle


Spot on !

[ThrustVectoring]

Dave Ramsey's investing advice is vastly inferior to his debt reduction angles. Do debt reduction with Dave Ramsey, and investing with Bogleheads.

Just remembered a previous Dave Ramsey post where someone replied :

When net worth less than zero listen to Dave Ramsey

When net worth greater then zero listen to bogle

I agree. If you're saving money and have a positive liquid net worth (excluding mortgage + home equity), you absolutely should not listen to Dave Ramsey. OTOH if you're living beyond your means and have significant behavioral issues that prevent you from not getting overloaded with debt, listening to Dave Ramsey is a fantastic life choice over the long run.

Just use a standard bogleheads style 3-fund portfolio. VTSAX/VTIAX/VBTLX if you like mutual funds, VTI/VXUS/BND if you like ETFs. If you like Vanguard and you're asking about portfolios here, this is the advice you're going to get, because these funds are the best tools (in our opinion) for achieving your investment goals. They'll get the broad diversification and growth you need from equity investments, and the stability you need from bonds, in whatever ratios you expect you'll need.

[DanMahowny]

Dave Ramsey targets a low income, high debt consumer usually with poor self-control. I wouldn’t recommend listening to him even for his sub-optimal debt repayment strategies. I’d definitely not recommend listening to any investment strategies he may offer.

Well done. This is what I was going to say, but you nailed it.

[DanMahowny]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

Winner!

[peterwantstosave]

Much appreciated, love the quote about Ramsey v Bogle, it makes good sense.

Peter

[Engineer250]

You can do a lot worse than being invested in American Funds through an FA that buys and holds and provides complete financial advice. I say this as someone who “looks over the shoulder” of an America Funds investor. While those on this board are all behind DIY, most people out there are incapable or unwilling to became knowledgeable enough to go it alone. I know many of us have that concern about our own spouse!

Well that makes me feel a little better. I found out over the weekend my Dad moved his money to American Funds (and paid the load from the sound of it). It is probably only about $40k and they live off a pension so they weren't going to need the money or touch it other than RMDs (and I certainly don't need it or care to receive anything from my parents). But my Dad is very frugal so it just kinda bummed me out. I'd have said something, but it felt like a "well he's already paid the fee and they don't really need the money so why bother."

[dbr]

You can do a lot worse than being invested in American Funds through an FA that buys and holds and provides complete financial advice. I say this as someone who “looks over the shoulder” of an America Funds investor. While those on this board are all behind DIY, most people out there are incapable or unwilling to became knowledgeable enough to go it alone. I know many of us have that concern about our own spouse!

Well that makes me feel a little better. I found out over the weekend my Dad moved his money to American Funds (and paid the load from the sound of it). It is probably only about $40k and they live off a pension so they weren't going to need the money or touch it other than RMDs (and I certainly don't need it or care to receive anything from my parents). But my Dad is very frugal so it just kinda bummed me out. I'd have said something, but it felt like a "well he's already paid the fee and they don't really need the money so why bother."

You should be bummed out that your Dad just spent over $2000 for absolutely nothing at all. Wouldn't they have felt a lot better to have given that money to a worthy charity rather than to a person and a company that most likely already has as much or more money than your Dad has?

It is true that one could do much worse, but that does not seem to be much justification. Also AF expense ratios are far from the worst but are high enough to be meaningfully worth avoiding. The funds themselves are probably perfectly competent funds for what they intend to do.

[H-Town]

Dave Ramsey advocates an investing philosophy that is split between Growth, Growth and Income, Aggressive Growth and International.

Would the following meet those guidelines?

1) Morgan Growth (Growth)
2) Vanguard 500 Index (Growth & Income)
3) Vanguard Explorer (Aggressive Growth)
4) Vanguard Total Intl Stock (International)

Thank you, Peter

His advice on investment above caters to folks that have no idea about investment. When they are given a list of funds to invest their 401k, those funds are "classified" into group as Income, Growth, Aggressive Growth, International and mixture of the above. Those classification are objective and are done by the plan administrator. So Ramsey knows his audience and attempted to dumb it down his investment advice. But his advice above is flawed.

Start with your asset allocation (AA), pick funds that fits into your AA and have low expense. See Taylor's post above.

[JupiterJones]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

Probably something along the lines of "Can't talk now, I'm being arrested for the ritual murder and dismemberment of a teacher..."

[Hulk]

When you spoke to one of Dave's endorsed local providers with the heart of a teacher, what did they say?

I met with one of Dave's ELPs about 7 years ago. At that time, I was 220k in med school debt and didn't know anything about investing. Not what an IRA, 401k, mutual fund vs index fund was, and certainly not ERs or loads. I was a huge Ramsey fan at the time (even went through his course as part of my pre-marriage counseling) and didn't know where else to turn (and frankly thought that would be a GREAT, safe place to look for advice.) The ELP gave me this schpeel with a graph I didn't understand AT ALL, which at the time I felt was intentional. I felt like he was trying to convey, "this stuff is confusing and you need me." In retrospect, my guess is the graph was past returns of loaded mutual funds in various asset classes, maybe 10. His advice was basically, "your guess is as good as mine as to what will increase in value and what will decrease. Just tell me how risky you want to be and i'll pick some for you. Or if you think you are so smart, you pick them." It felt like gambling and not investing. HIs eyes got big when I told him my salary and how much I wanted to invest and he deviated from Dave's advice recommending that I start investing before I was debt free. That was enough to turn me off to him (very Dave loyal at the time) and instead I just payed off my debt, but was still confused and had no idea how to invest.

I asked and asked and asked for years every rich person I knew what the crap to do with my money. Kept getting terrible, disappointing answers.
Thankfully I finally discovered bogelheads and white coat investor and those 2 sources have been absolutely invaluable. Everything I needed. Cheers to Jack Bogle, Jim Dahle and (most of) the people on this forum!!!

I still like Dave, sort of. But don't listen to him on investing advice and maybe not even on debt advice. Jim Dahle's actually has better debt advice

[Engineer250]

You can do a lot worse than being invested in American Funds through an FA that buys and holds and provides complete financial advice. I say this as someone who “looks over the shoulder” of an America Funds investor. While those on this board are all behind DIY, most people out there are incapable or unwilling to became knowledgeable enough to go it alone. I know many of us have that concern about our own spouse!

Well that makes me feel a little better. I found out over the weekend my Dad moved his money to American Funds (and paid the load from the sound of it). It is probably only about $40k and they live off a pension so they weren't going to need the money or touch it other than RMDs (and I certainly don't need it or care to receive anything from my parents). But my Dad is very frugal so it just kinda bummed me out. I'd have said something, but it felt like a "well he's already paid the fee and they don't really need the money so why bother."

You should be bummed out that your Dad just spent over $2000 for absolutely nothing at all. Wouldn't they have felt a lot better to have given that money to a worthy charity rather than to a person and a company that most likely already has as much or more money than your Dad has?

It is true that one could do much worse, but that does not seem to be much justification. Also AF expense ratios are far from the worst but are high enough to be meaningfully worth avoiding. The funds themselves are probably perfectly competent funds for what they intend to do.

Thanks now I'm sad again. Unfortunately, he didn't ask me for advice. And I felt like it was a big mistake but a mistake already made. Like, I was worried if I made a big deal he'd just realize and regret all the money he wasted and feel sad himself. This is a guy who will go to 3 or 4 grocery stores a week so he can get the absolute best price in town on everything. A guy trying to save 50 cents on a box of cereal probably doesn't want to know he could have saved thousands investing at Vanguard or Schwab or Fidelity. I wish they'd have asked me but they did not. I think they know I now know more than them of investing but are probably used to trying to be independent. And you know, their money not mine so I feel like what right have I to say anything.

[dbr]

You can do a lot worse than being invested in American Funds through an FA that buys and holds and provides complete financial advice. I say this as someone who “looks over the shoulder” of an America Funds investor. While those on this board are all behind DIY, most people out there are incapable or unwilling to became knowledgeable enough to go it alone. I know many of us have that concern about our own spouse!

Well that makes me feel a little better. I found out over the weekend my Dad moved his money to American Funds (and paid the load from the sound of it). It is probably only about $40k and they live off a pension so they weren't going to need the money or touch it other than RMDs (and I certainly don't need it or care to receive anything from my parents). But my Dad is very frugal so it just kinda bummed me out. I'd have said something, but it felt like a "well he's already paid the fee and they don't really need the money so why bother."

You should be bummed out that your Dad just spent over $2000 for absolutely nothing at all. Wouldn't they have felt a lot better to have given that money to a worthy charity rather than to a person and a company that most likely already has as much or more money than your Dad has?

It is true that one could do much worse, but that does not seem to be much justification. Also AF expense ratios are far from the worst but are high enough to be meaningfully worth avoiding. The funds themselves are probably perfectly competent funds for what they intend to do.

Thanks now I'm sad again. Unfortunately, he didn't ask me for advice. And I felt like it was a big mistake but a mistake already made. Like, I was worried if I made a big deal he'd just realize and regret all the money he wasted and feel sad himself. This is a guy who will go to 3 or 4 grocery stores a week so he can get the absolute best price in town on everything. A guy trying to save 50 cents on a box of cereal probably doesn't want to know he could have saved thousands investing at Vanguard or Schwab or Fidelity. I wish they'd have asked me but they did not. I think they know I now know more than them of investing but are probably used to trying to be independent. And you know, their money not mine so I feel like what right have I to say anything.

Yeah, the really insidious thing about front end loads is that the money is gone forever within one second of implementing the decision, pending some allowance for regret and reversing the purchase. I just get really angry hearing about people who live a mantra of frugality and then are sabotaged by this kind of thing.