Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Trying to figure out how to get in on the Bitcoin game or lose my “fun money” investments. Anyone able to give me tips on how to get in on Bitcoin futures through a Fidelity brokerage account?
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
I don't think Fidelity offers futures trading, do they?
Also should note that the CBOE contract is for 1 bitcoin (~$18,000), while CME contract is for 5 bitcoins (~$90,000), and of course you need to go long or short whole numbers of contracts. Not sure what the initial and maintenance margins would be, but I think I saw something like 1/3 of nominal value.
Also should note that the CBOE contract is for 1 bitcoin (~$18,000), while CME contract is for 5 bitcoins (~$90,000), and of course you need to go long or short whole numbers of contracts. Not sure what the initial and maintenance margins would be, but I think I saw something like 1/3 of nominal value.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Edit: Are you planning to short or long?
- whodidntante
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Fidelity does not offer futures.
You can buy futures at other (but not all) discount brokers. TDA, IB, Schwab, ETrade offer futures.
IB does not currently allow shorting bitcoin futures, although you can short other types of futures there. I don't know what other brokers are offering.
You can buy futures at other (but not all) discount brokers. TDA, IB, Schwab, ETrade offer futures.
IB does not currently allow shorting bitcoin futures, although you can short other types of futures there. I don't know what other brokers are offering.
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about. I had just hoped to have a way to throw a couple hundred dollars into Bitcoin somehow and get in on the skyrocketing prices while they last. No idea how to do it.
- whodidntante
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Then your best option would be to convert some money into bitcoin, not to buy and roll a futures contract.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Just out of curiosity, what's your plan if the bubble burst and you lost the money? Are you going to use another couple of hundreds to play something else and so on? Or you will quit?
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
I have all my retirement money in Index funds. This is an extra fund I throw $100 into every month and by something new whenever I have enough. If something goes bust then that part of the money is gone. I have things from canabis penny stocks to Shopify to Intel.BogleMelon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pmJust out of curiosity, what's your plan if the bubble burst and you lost the money? Are you going to use another couple of hundreds to play something else and so on? Or you will quit?
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
At the risk of sounding really ignorant, how do I do that?whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:12 pmThen your best option would be to convert some money into bitcoin, not to buy and roll a futures contract.
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
TDA will allow Bitcoin futures trading on Monday. The CNBC article wasn't clear if they'd allow both short and long positions, though it did mention higher margin requirements.whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:57 pm Fidelity does not offer futures.
You can buy futures at other (but not all) discount brokers. TDA, IB, Schwab, ETrade offer futures.
IB does not currently allow shorting bitcoin futures, although you can short other types of futures there. I don't know what other brokers are offering.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Oh welcome to endless threads here and on the net. There's all kinds of issues re what is the most secure way to do this.Mndiver wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:59 pmAt the risk of sounding really ignorant, how do I do that?whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:12 pmThen your best option would be to convert some money into bitcoin, not to buy and roll a futures contract.
Coinbase is apparently the most downloaded iphone Ap at the moment, at least supposedly.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Head toMndiver wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:59 pmAt the risk of sounding really ignorant, how do I do that?whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:12 pmThen your best option would be to convert some money into bitcoin, not to buy and roll a futures contract.
https://www.coinbase.com/join/51d4227f9c8c8866fa00000d
Use the link, we both get $10 of bitcoin. Coinbase is the most reputable of online wallets
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Create an account on coinbase.com and then buy and sell on gdax.com (owned by coinbase) with $0 fees.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
How would you price a Bitcoin contract or determine fair value? Is there a uniform spot price? Is settlement in dollars, Bitcoin or what?
The lure of a cryptocurrency is that it’s not one of them fiat currencies. Who’s taking Bitcoin as payment for goods and services? I’ve never seen payment in gold at the Safeway checkout. At the end of the day the hard currency stuff finds its way into dollars, euros, yen, etc. in the course of commerce.
Regardless, the trend is Bitcoin’s friend so put me in for a couple of lots at the opening.
The lure of a cryptocurrency is that it’s not one of them fiat currencies. Who’s taking Bitcoin as payment for goods and services? I’ve never seen payment in gold at the Safeway checkout. At the end of the day the hard currency stuff finds its way into dollars, euros, yen, etc. in the course of commerce.
Regardless, the trend is Bitcoin’s friend so put me in for a couple of lots at the opening.
- arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
at a Bitcoin ATM, where else??Mndiver wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:59 pmAt the risk of sounding really ignorant, how do I do that?whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:12 pmThen your best option would be to convert some money into bitcoin, not to buy and roll a futures contract.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... cZe9b_MQKU
well there are other ways to buy them to. usually through a broker, so expect to pay a hefty commission since it's not as liquid as say the total stock market index fund or the S&P500 index fund is.
seriously don't buy bitcoin. you'll only contribute to its rise...which benefits everyone else who bought before you, not you. In order for you to make money, you have to hope someone else is going to buy it at an even higher price than you did. Why would they do that? Come to think of it, why would you buy it at a price higher than others did in the past? It's called the greater fool theory. That makes you the greater fool the moment you buy it at a higher price than it was before. But then you have to hope an even greater fool than you comes along and pays an even higher price than you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=greater ... fox-b-1-abThe greater fool theory states that the price of an object is determined not by its intrinsic value, but rather by irrational beliefs and expectations of market participants. A price can be justified by a rational buyer under the belief that another party is willing to pay an even higher price. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
no offense, but since you're asking such basic questions it's pretty obvious you haven't done your due diligence. People who don't do their due diligence usually lose money. Is that what you want? You're looking to make a quick buck. I get it. Problem is if you're at the poker table and you don't know who the patsy is, it's you.
best of luck though. please do let us know how it goes. especially if it ends badly. then you can perhaps help the next speculators who want to buy in to the next bubble that comes along. we all learn from each other.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Bitcoins are a liquid asset you can readily trade that have zero holding costs. Futures for these kinds of assets should be relatively close to spot, outside of some weird teething issues early on, when the market isn't that robust. The futures prices should not significantly exceed spot, or else you could short the contracts and own actual bitcoin long for an arbitrage profit. Currently I'm seeing the contracts under spot, with higher values the longer the contract.skepticalobserver wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:34 pm How would you price a Bitcoin contract or determine fair value? Is there a uniform spot price? Is settlement in dollars, Bitcoin or what?
These are cash settled. The price used on settlement actually varies between CBOE and CME. Check their docs for further details of how those are determined on expiry.
http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cb ... ifications
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity- ... tions.html
Dell, Microsoft, Overstock.com, Expedia, Tesla, Newegg, TigerDirect, Steam, a number of smaller services and stores. More outside the US, including international money transfer services. Most just plug into a Bitcoin payment processor like Bitpay. It should be thousands of merchants. Plenty of non-commercial software developers or other net/tech related sites accept Bitcoin donations, just by listing an address on the site people can donate to if they want.skepticalobserver wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:34 pmThe lure of a cryptocurrency is that it’s not one of them fiat currencies. Who’s taking Bitcoin as payment for goods and services? I’ve never seen payment in gold at the Safeway checkout. At the end of the day the hard currency stuff finds its way into dollars, euros, yen, etc. in the course of commerce.
All the huge runoff in prices has made the much of the argument for and utility of Bitcoin evaporate, for what it's worth. One of the arguments used to be that it could facilitate small-dollar transactions well without having to hand over credit card or bank information, be cheaper than credit card processors and the likes of Paypal, etc. But now typical mining fees (to get a transaction through the system and actually added to the ledger in the course of an hour or so, not relying on somebody to do it for free) are above $10 a transaction. I mean, that's still fine for sending significant remittances, black market goods, and money laundering, but it's a problem for many others.
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Bitcoin Investment Trust maybe? https://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearc ... mbols=GBTC. I started following this when it was at 800 and felt it was too high and wanted to buy if it went to 500.Its 2700 now
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Let me call the shoeshine guy down at the train station, I am sure he has a connection.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
It's still trading around a 50% premium to NAV and has an ER of 2%. The site says 0.09196847 BTC per share, and the current share price is about $2700 (at the end of Friday trading, so sure, it's stale).vk_217 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:12 pm Bitcoin Investment Trust maybe? https://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearc ... mbols=GBTC. I started following this when it was at 800 and felt it was too high and wanted to buy if it went to 500.Its 2700 now
I guess if you want to take a bitcoin-related bet it's an option. There's not a mechanism that can really tie this to NAV so I guess you can hope here for non-price convergence. It's been running the premium for a long time.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
I am noticing that Bitcoin appears to be trending higher and higher in BH discussions. If even the faithful are taking the time to discuss it, would conclusion should a BH draw?
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Easiest way I have found is to buy bitcoin investment trust GBTC . There is a pretty hefty premium to bitcoin price built in but it is an easy way to participate.
- ruralavalon
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Wow!!! Bitcoin, futures, and leveraged with high margin requirements !! What could be better?Daryl wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:33 pmTDA will allow Bitcoin futures trading on Monday. The CNBC article wasn't clear if they'd allow both short and long positions, though it did mention higher margin requirements.whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:57 pm Fidelity does not offer futures.
You can buy futures at other (but not all) discount brokers. TDA, IB, Schwab, ETrade offer futures.
IB does not currently allow shorting bitcoin futures, although you can short other types of futures there. I don't know what other brokers are offering.
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Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
High margin requirements *reduce* leverage.ruralavalon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:32 amWow!!! Bitcoin, futures, and leveraged with high margin requirements !! What could be better?Daryl wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:33 pmTDA will allow Bitcoin futures trading on Monday. The CNBC article wasn't clear if they'd allow both short and long positions, though it did mention higher margin requirements.whodidntante wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:57 pm Fidelity does not offer futures.
You can buy futures at other (but not all) discount brokers. TDA, IB, Schwab, ETrade offer futures.
IB does not currently allow shorting bitcoin futures, although you can short other types of futures there. I don't know what other brokers are offering.
You post Initial Margin up front. If the futures contract goes against you (price moves up if you are short, down if you are long) then you post more Variation Margin, or the exchange closes out your position at that time (the margin call).
So the higher the Initial Margin, the less the gearing.
For example for some contracts you may be able to get away with $10k on a $100k future contract. That means you could buy 10 contracts with $100k.
If the IM is $50k you could only long 2 contracts - 1/5th as much.
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
Unless you're already an experienced margin and futures trader, I wouldn't bother. If you want to invest in BTC, do so with a recognition of the risk. You can purchase via Coinbase or hold GBTC through a brokerage (Fidelity, TD, etc) --with the caveat that at present the premium is ridiculously high.
BTC: I've held a small crypto portfolio of BTC, ETH, and LTC for more than a year. It was an academic curiosity on what the transactional applications would be, but as I didn't see any potential from its transactional abilities I left it alone. Now I'm following its trajectory with a mixture of amusement and concern. I invested less than <1% of my portfolio, an amount I was willing to lose. I just recently sold a tiny amount to recover my initial investment, and plan to wait a full year from the last date I added to sell more. Calculating tax is a pita, as there's no 1099. The IRS taxes it as property with short (ordinary) and long gains. Even making purchases with BTC involves a tax assessment.
GBTC: I'm a little annoyed at Vanguard for not allowing GBTC purchases when the otc trust became available. I ended up buying some shares in my taxable individual equity brokerage early this year rather than my Vanguard Roth. (FYI: VG now allows purchase but you have to call them first.) Anyway, I'm waiting to sell since it's up so much I have to consider the tax liabilities. I was not expecting it to spike so much.
Would I buy or add now? No. But the caveat is the same: Don't invest more than you're willing to lose.
BTC: I've held a small crypto portfolio of BTC, ETH, and LTC for more than a year. It was an academic curiosity on what the transactional applications would be, but as I didn't see any potential from its transactional abilities I left it alone. Now I'm following its trajectory with a mixture of amusement and concern. I invested less than <1% of my portfolio, an amount I was willing to lose. I just recently sold a tiny amount to recover my initial investment, and plan to wait a full year from the last date I added to sell more. Calculating tax is a pita, as there's no 1099. The IRS taxes it as property with short (ordinary) and long gains. Even making purchases with BTC involves a tax assessment.
GBTC: I'm a little annoyed at Vanguard for not allowing GBTC purchases when the otc trust became available. I ended up buying some shares in my taxable individual equity brokerage early this year rather than my Vanguard Roth. (FYI: VG now allows purchase but you have to call them first.) Anyway, I'm waiting to sell since it's up so much I have to consider the tax liabilities. I was not expecting it to spike so much.
Would I buy or add now? No. But the caveat is the same: Don't invest more than you're willing to lose.
Re: Bitcoin futures with Fidelity
As a point, I don't think the margin requirement or the roll requirement for futures is a solid argument. Yes, these would provided a drag - the drag being around the rate of the risk free rate - or short term treasuries.
If you bought Bitcoin outright you would need to pay cash now. You could have invested your cash in something else - like risk free short term treasuries.
That is the actually cost of investing in futures would be equlivent to the lost opportunity cost by investing directly. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. At least assuming that Bitcoin futures work like other commodity futures and I can't see why it would not.
If you bought Bitcoin outright you would need to pay cash now. You could have invested your cash in something else - like risk free short term treasuries.
That is the actually cost of investing in futures would be equlivent to the lost opportunity cost by investing directly. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. At least assuming that Bitcoin futures work like other commodity futures and I can't see why it would not.
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