What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

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WhiteMaxima
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What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by WhiteMaxima » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am

What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.

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mhc
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by mhc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:38 am

The first thing that comes to mind is that I don't want my DW or me to be in a medicare nursing home.

The second is that there are a lot of unknowns when you look at multiple decade long timeline.

staythecourse
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by staythecourse » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:01 pm

What makes you think it has all to do with the portfolio value?

I would think many of those folks have a level of anxiety in regards to many aspects of life, i.e. worry warts. I think for many the worry of not having enough money is the same reason they save to alleviate that worry (not necessarily to buy more stuff). I'm like that. I save and it isn't to buy anything at all. It give me peace of mind and allay's that aspect of my anxiety. Sort of a like OCD where you have obsessions and thus perform compulsive acts to allay those anxieties.

Any person who knows finance will tell you 50+x annual expenses and having a worry of running out of money is an irrational fear. So it has nothing to do with logic and all to do with emotions.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

Seasonal
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by Seasonal » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:04 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
The question isn't asset size, it's assets compared to expenses. Some people with large portfolios have very high expenses that they are not willing or able to cut or are worried about possible increased expenses, for example, medical care or nursing home.

Da5id
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by Da5id » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:07 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
"crying for money" sounds a bit judgmental. Some agenda here?

I think people with lots to lose may well fear losing lots. Is that surprising? Worrying about potential loss of money to support your desired spending levels after your earning potential is largely gone seems quite understandable to me. Even if it is taken to an excess sometimes (including probably by conservatively minded folks that me who suggest targetting a 3-3.5% SWR).

smitcat
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by smitcat » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:15 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
When you have a larger portfolio and move through a time period like 2008-2010 you will see this affect.
When you are nearing or into early retirement you will see this affect.

For the most part if you are 10+ years out till retirement and have most of your larger investment experience (dollars per day invested) you will not be affected nearly as much.

YMMV

GmanJeff
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by GmanJeff » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:51 pm

This may reflect different attitudes about risk management. Perhaps sometimes those with more to potentially lose may be particularly sensitive to the role risk plays in one's ability to sustain or improve one's lifestyle over lengthy periods of time as compared to those who are content assuming their asset levels will always be sufficient for their needs.

For example, if you think your portfolio, of any size, will inevitably generate 3-4% forever, no matter what may happen in the future, and you're confident that amount of income will always be sufficient for your needs, you're not going to worry. On the other hand, if you have the same portfolio but are more alive to the possibility that your portfolio might not be able to reliably and consistently generate whatever income you think you might need over time, whether because portfolio performance falls short or because your expenses end up being greater than anticipated, you're going to be concerned.

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by midareff » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm

There were times in my life I was really, really, poor. I remember them and will made dam sure they don't happen again.

heyyou
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by heyyou » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:22 pm

Others should do what suits them, and I have my preferences.
At work, I encountered older people who were living on only Social Security (SS).
I haven't always had the comparatively large savings that I now have in retirement. Was laid off for six weeks within the first year after getting my first mortgage. I had a couple of hundred dollars left when I got the next paycheck. A good, early lesson for my naiveté about MegaCorp caring for its employees, so I started saving more.

Retired in 2005 at age 55, then the 2008 Crash occurred. Still had near 40 years of expected longevity. Take a look at what a no-COLA pension from 40 years ago, is now worth. Note that the retirement periods that failed the soonest, were not from stock market problems, but from high inflation during the first decade of retirement. That is not forecast like the future expected returns are correlated with today's CAPE10 valuation.

Both of my parents had significant cognitive decline, so the longer living one spent years in assisted care facilities. The residents with the most frequent visitors are the cleanest since the staff do not want visitors smelling a diaper that needs to be changed. It is not a coincidence that urinary tract infections are common in the elderly who live in care facilities.

Thus the whole concept of expecting to be living at home with DW, and spending our last dime on the last day of our 30th year of retirement is not acceptable to us.

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steve50
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by steve50 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm

Future medical costs!! They can wipe your savings out pretty fast.

People without money don't have to worry about it since everything will be paid for them.

WhiteMaxima
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by WhiteMaxima » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm

steve50 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm
Future medical costs!! They can wipe your savings out pretty fast.

People without money don't have to worry about it since everything will be paid for them.
ACA Insurance.

freebeer
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by freebeer » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm

Bogleheads self-select, based on the premises of this forum, to often be obsessive about money even though for most of us it's the least of our real concerns in life. But there are many things in life that we can't control so perhaps it's not surprising that we hold on tight to something that we feel we can control.

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by TheHouse7 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:42 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
There were times in my life I was really, really, poor. I remember them and will made dam sure they don't happen again.
+1
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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HomerJ
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by HomerJ » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:45 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm
steve50 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm
Future medical costs!! They can wipe your savings out pretty fast.

People without money don't have to worry about it since everything will be paid for them.
ACA Insurance.
That may not be around in the future.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -Yogi Berra

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by alpine_boglehead » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:56 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
It's kind of a paradoxon - because Bogleheads worry about money, they have less money worries :beer

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Tamarind
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by Tamarind » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:02 pm

I think money is the venue through which many BHs, including myself, attempt to exercise control over the things in life we can't control. We don't know when a job, or health, or a relationship might disappear. But money buffers most things and hopefully reduces future suffering.

J295
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by J295 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:04 pm

No worries here. FI now and retired, and admit the future is unknown

Phillipians 4:12 for us

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:07 pm

steve50 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm
Future medical costs!! They can wipe your savings out pretty fast.

People without money don't have to worry about it since everything will be paid for them.
+1000.

KlangFool

Da5id
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by Da5id » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:08 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm
steve50 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm
Future medical costs!! They can wipe your savings out pretty fast.

People without money don't have to worry about it since everything will be paid for them.
ACA Insurance.
Forgetting possible changes (OT here), ACA insurance isn't helpful if you get into expenses for assisted living/"skilled nursing facility"/memory care unit. Those can cause really tough financial situations for people, and are even worse if you have one spouse draining all the assets for the couple to pay for them. Yes, Medicaid will kick in once you are basically impoverished, but does that provide the level of facility/care you want? Maybe or maybe not...

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by SimplicityNow » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:15 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
Some of the people with no savings at all have none because they don't worry enough about money.

quantAndHold
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by quantAndHold » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:46 pm

At the end of his life, Dad got into a situation where he couldn't make decisions, I was out of the country somewhere where I couldn't be reached, and he needed to be moved in a hurry for some reason that I'll never understand. They didn't know what his financial situation was, so they put him in a skilled nursing facility that would take medicaid until they could reach me. Fortunately, he had plenty of assets, and was only there for about 3 weeks before I saw the place and got him out of there. It was the "best place in town", but it was not a place where you or me or anyone else would want to be unless the alternative was to be homeless. It was horrible.

This is where you end up if you run out of savings at the end of life. I do not want this for either myself or my wife. So I worry about money now.

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by flyingaway » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:55 pm

Those who don't care about money would not come here for investment advice. If you are here, you are worried about money, which in turn gives you a big size of asset.

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QuentinCrisp
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by QuentinCrisp » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:01 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
There were times in my life I was really, really, poor. I remember them and will made dam sure they don't happen again.
I'm with midareff on this one. I once had to choose between buying food or buying a can of Raid. I bought the Raid and went to bed hungry. But at least the cockroaches didn't crawl on me that night.

Quentin

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:01 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

I see many BH have multi millions but still worry about money. What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
There are black swans out there that aren't financial that no excel spreadsheet is going to combat. About the only thing you can to is accumulate as much wealth as possible. While the 50% equity bear market gets frequently discussed, the loss of employment is real problem which compounds the issue when the two events inevitably occur simultaneously. Honestly, imo, the 50% decline in equities when you have sustained employment isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world particularly if you're older and earning more and loading up throughout. 50% decline and loss of job and trouble getting back in in your 50s, double trouble. Throw in a health issue and you have a really bad recipe.

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by winterfan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:16 pm

midareff wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
There were times in my life I was really, really, poor. I remember them and will made dam sure they don't happen again.
Yep, I remember a time in my life when I didn't have enough food to eat. That definitely had an impact on my life (and probably why I keep a stocked pantry and freezer!). I've always been fairly conservative with my finances (i.e. buying much less house than we can afford, taking cheapo vacations, etc.).

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by Teague » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:29 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:33 am
What about for the people without savings at all? Haven't seen so many of them crying for money.
For many, they simply do not have time to "cry for money." They do not have the luxury of spending time on the Internet crying about anything. They are concentrating on putting food on the table, keeping the power on, and paying the rent.

They may be working two, or sometimes three low-wage jobs, if they can find the work (and are healthy.) They may not have adequate health insurance. They may have grown up in neighborhoods that are hard to escape from.

They may be in such circumstances due to their poor choices, or often through absolutely no fault of their own. They may see no way out, but they struggle on each day, because there simply is no other choice.

We on this forum may seem to worry about money a lot, but we are not the ones who truly do worry about it.
Semper Augustus

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snackdog
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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by snackdog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:54 pm

Plenty of people have municipal, state or federal government jobs which offer fabulous pensions and medical benefits after 20 years or so of service. They are set for life and use the spouse income as gravy for vacations, toys, etc. Some just work longer and plan to live on social security. Two earners making the ss max each for thirty or more years plus pensions could have a pretty fat income.

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Re: What cause BH fear about running out of saving though they have big size of asset?

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:01 pm

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