Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

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MotoTrojan
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Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 11:07 am

Am I missing something, or is there not a way to compare Bid-Ask pricing live to determine if there is a premium or discount?

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triceratop
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 12:28 pm

Not to my knowledge, but I'd love to be informed otherwise.

You may already know all this, so apologies if so, but Vanguard publishes an indicative value ticker, updated every 15 seconds. This might be enough for US stocks and bonds, but it gets more complicated for funds which own assets traded in international markets. So for VXUS you might have VXUS-IV, but it is not a live NAV ticker because the fair value adjustments are made for the closing NAV. See: Zweig: The Expensive Ingredient of Cheap ETFs [Price vs. NAV]
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livesoft
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by livesoft » Thu May 18, 2017 12:30 pm

I personally don't believe the live intraday indicative value (^IIV) is worth much of anything. Search the forum for that term and I think you will get some secret code to see it. Morningstar.com and others show it and chart it on the one-day chart.

I'd like to see a legitimate use case for an ETF that I would like to own and/or do own.
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 12:46 pm

livesoft wrote:I personally don't believe the live intraday indicative value (^IIV) is worth much of anything. Search the forum for that term and I think you will get some secret code to see it. Morningstar.com and others show it and chart it on the one-day chart.

I'd like to see a legitimate use case for an ETF that I would like to own and/or do own.
To expand on this, the IV is only indicative rather than a true NAV, even for US stocks, because if a security hasn't traded recently the IV keeps the last price frozen even though the value may have shifted. I don't use or recommend IIVs either.

My belief is that the bid/ask spread is worth a great deal in knowing how much you're possibly losing in a transaction. Vanguard does publish quarterly premium/discount analysis which can also be useful.
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by livesoft » Thu May 18, 2017 12:52 pm

triceratop wrote:My belief is that the bid/ask spread is worth a great deal in knowing how much you're possibly losing in a transaction.
I have the same belief.
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MotoTrojan
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm

livesoft wrote:
triceratop wrote:My belief is that the bid/ask spread is worth a great deal in knowing how much you're possibly losing in a transaction.
I have the same belief.
But is the NAV always between Bid & Ask? It was my understanding that it is sometimes outside of it and that is the scenario I am curious how to detect/evaluate.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 1:03 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
livesoft wrote:
triceratop wrote:My belief is that the bid/ask spread is worth a great deal in knowing how much you're possibly losing in a transaction.
I have the same belief.
But is the NAV always between Bid & Ask? It was my understanding that it is sometimes outside of it and that is the scenario I am curious how to detect/evaluate.
No, the NAV for ETFs is not guaranteed to relate to Bid & Ask in any defined way. But if the bid/ask spread is $0.01 with recent volume and market depth there would seem to be a market agreement about what the basket of securities is worth; some market makers are likely providing the other side of that trade, and they prefer not to lose money when NAV is far apart from price.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 1:10 pm

triceratop wrote:
MotoTrojan wrote:
livesoft wrote:
triceratop wrote:My belief is that the bid/ask spread is worth a great deal in knowing how much you're possibly losing in a transaction.
I have the same belief.
But is the NAV always between Bid & Ask? It was my understanding that it is sometimes outside of it and that is the scenario I am curious how to detect/evaluate.
No, the NAV for ETFs is not guaranteed to relate to Bid & Ask in any defined way. But if the bid/ask spread is $0.01 with recent volume and market depth there would seem to be a market agreement about what the basket of securities is worth; some market makers are likely providing the other side of that trade, and they prefer not to lose money when NAV is far apart from price.
I hold VIOV so spreads are often closer to $0.10.

Suppose I could check price relation in % from previous close NAV to something more liquid like IJS.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by livesoft » Thu May 18, 2017 1:14 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:Suppose I could check price relation in % from previous close NAV to something more liquid like IJS.
Yes. I always watch a related ETF to see that they are all acting the same. I don't worry about owning a specific ETF in the asset class because I might not own it more than a few days anyways. Example: Yesterday: IWM and IWN were trading in RBD territory but IJS and VBR were not. So I bought IWN ... with a market order.
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 1:16 pm

If one needed liquidity during a particular market event one could buy IJS to avoid paying a large spread. Sometimes VIOV trades at much tighter spreads, particularly typically near the close, so at any future point you could exchange and hold VIOV indefinitely for the lower expense ratio. Of course, the selling goes for a tax-advantaged account.
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 1:18 pm

triceratop wrote:If one needed liquidity during a particular market event one could buy IJS to avoid paying a large spread. Sometimes VIOV trades at much tighter spreads, particularly typically near the close, so at any future point you could exchange and hold VIOV indefinitely for the lower expense ratio. Of course, the selling goes for a tax-advantaged account.
I simply avoid IJS for the brokerage fee as I buy monthly.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by livesoft » Thu May 18, 2017 1:19 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:I simply avoid IJS for the brokerage fee as I buy monthly.
If at Vanguard, then use mutual funds and not worry about all this.
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 1:31 pm

True, IJS comes with a commission at some places. One could also move to a brokerage with no commissions. There is some value to the flexibility that gives one in executing an asset allocation. I like Merrill Edge, and despite my paranoia that BoA is trying to screw me over with fine-print fees at every turn, I enjoy the challenge of taking them for everything they've got.

Pssst: One is charged an outgoing transfer fee from BoA checking to other checking accounts, but not from BoA to Merrill Edge nor from Merrill Edge to an external linked checking account.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

MotoTrojan
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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 1:48 pm

triceratop wrote:True, IJS comes with a commission at some places. One could also move to a brokerage with no commissions. There is some value to the flexibility that gives one in executing an asset allocation. I like Merrill Edge, and despite my paranoia that BoA is trying to screw me over with fine-print fees at every turn, I enjoy the challenge of taking them for everything they've got.

Pssst: One is charged an outgoing transfer fee from BoA checking to other checking accounts, but not from BoA to Merrill Edge nor from Merrill Edge to an external linked checking account.
Haha interesting. I would prefer to keep all assets in one place and I would wager VIOV will grow in AUM, plus the lower ER over 40 years should benefit. I am not trading frequently and can use care if/when I have large (XXX-XXXX share) transactions.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by triceratop » Thu May 18, 2017 1:50 pm

Unfortunately, as investors in VSS know, it is not how large the AUM grows but how much volume grows in determining future transaction costs.
"To play the stock market is to play musical chairs under the chord progression of a bid-ask spread."

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by jayhawkerbeef » Thu May 18, 2017 1:59 pm

triceratop wrote:Pssst: One is charged an outgoing transfer fee from BoA checking to other checking accounts
I've never been charged a fee for this.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 18, 2017 2:11 pm

triceratop wrote:Unfortunately, as investors in VSS know, it is not how large the AUM grows but how much volume grows in determining future transaction costs.
Good point, but they are strongly correlated, especially if the AUM growth is due to new investors rather than share purchases.

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Re: Vangaurd ETF Live NAV?

Post by GLState » Thu May 18, 2017 3:13 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:Am I missing something, or is there not a way to compare Bid-Ask pricing live to determine if there is a premium or discount?
I'm not sure how "live" it is, but Morningstar shows bid/ask spread along with discount/premium. The TDAmeritrade thinkorswim platform shows bid/ask spread can get the IV for VOO, for example, by using VOO.IV as the symbol. On Yahoo, IV would be VOO-IV

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