What if I have enough money?
What if I have enough money?
Sorry for the provocative title, but I think it's true.
I just saw this article yesterday, about how even retirees with more than
enough money are hesitant to enjoy the fruits of their labors, hence this
post.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ut-of-fear
I am 61 years old, married, with no kids. Both wife and I worked in high tech, and I made money
at a startup.
I was just laid off, and I plan to retire either now, or else in 6 months (I may get contract work).
Our net worth includes about $1.7M in investments, and about $1M in two homes we own.
We have no debt, and live very modestly, except for maintaining two houses. We drive two
2004 Toyotas.
I also have a lifetime annuity that pays $350 per month, and will soon start a pension that
will pay a little over $400 per month. My shares of O also pay me about $240 per month.
Currently, most of my investments are about 60% dividend champions or DOW "Dogs", and
40% is in cash and bonds. This brings in around $35K per year in interest and dividend
income. Many of my positions I have had quite a while, and include large positions in CVX, XOM,
and MO.
Because we have no children, we do *not* plan to leave any money on the table.
I am guessing that most people will think I am an idiot, but it is still hard to think about
having no other income besides what I described above.
Since I will have to pay for my own health care until I am 65, I was thinking of taking
my SS early at 62 to consider that my own private health care payment. My estimated
SS then will be about $2000 per month. If the wife waits until 66, she will get $2180 per month. If she starts at 62, it would be $1568.
All of our money is in Fidelity, mostly because that is where we started 35 years ago.
Now for my questions.
It seems as though 99% of all articles are aimed at people who do *not* have enough
money. Even the old rules about 60/40 etc. are being changed to tell people to
stay more invested in stocks.
I think that I should probably be protecting what I do have, and I should be all set.
But no one seems to like bonds anymore.
So my question is, for fun, what would you do in my place? What high-level
things would you change?
I just saw this article yesterday, about how even retirees with more than
enough money are hesitant to enjoy the fruits of their labors, hence this
post.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ut-of-fear
I am 61 years old, married, with no kids. Both wife and I worked in high tech, and I made money
at a startup.
I was just laid off, and I plan to retire either now, or else in 6 months (I may get contract work).
Our net worth includes about $1.7M in investments, and about $1M in two homes we own.
We have no debt, and live very modestly, except for maintaining two houses. We drive two
2004 Toyotas.
I also have a lifetime annuity that pays $350 per month, and will soon start a pension that
will pay a little over $400 per month. My shares of O also pay me about $240 per month.
Currently, most of my investments are about 60% dividend champions or DOW "Dogs", and
40% is in cash and bonds. This brings in around $35K per year in interest and dividend
income. Many of my positions I have had quite a while, and include large positions in CVX, XOM,
and MO.
Because we have no children, we do *not* plan to leave any money on the table.
I am guessing that most people will think I am an idiot, but it is still hard to think about
having no other income besides what I described above.
Since I will have to pay for my own health care until I am 65, I was thinking of taking
my SS early at 62 to consider that my own private health care payment. My estimated
SS then will be about $2000 per month. If the wife waits until 66, she will get $2180 per month. If she starts at 62, it would be $1568.
All of our money is in Fidelity, mostly because that is where we started 35 years ago.
Now for my questions.
It seems as though 99% of all articles are aimed at people who do *not* have enough
money. Even the old rules about 60/40 etc. are being changed to tell people to
stay more invested in stocks.
I think that I should probably be protecting what I do have, and I should be all set.
But no one seems to like bonds anymore.
So my question is, for fun, what would you do in my place? What high-level
things would you change?
Re: What if I have enough money?
I was going to suggest a SPIA in your future, but you don't even want to let your current available annuity (SS) increase to provide more COLA'd income for the rest of your life. I would "buy" the huge increase in SS first for more guaranteed lifetime income. It is a great pension that is there for surviving spouse's lifetime as well.
Have you looked at the SS numbers for FRA and age 70? Suggest you at least look at them. The lower income spouse could perhaps collect earlier, and count on yours if survivor.
EDIT: You can delay SS month by month, so it is not an 8-year commitment.
Have you looked at the SS numbers for FRA and age 70? Suggest you at least look at them. The lower income spouse could perhaps collect earlier, and count on yours if survivor.
EDIT: You can delay SS month by month, so it is not an 8-year commitment.
Last edited by BL on Wed May 17, 2017 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: What if I have enough money?
I agree with BL. I would rethink the decision to take SS at 62. You need to compile the numbers and evaluate how you'd fund the 8-year gap but it is a very compelling math for many people.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
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Re: What if I have enough money?
Deleted
Last edited by letsgobobby on Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if I have enough money?
I would get sell off all individual company stock as soon as it is practical and as tax efficient as possible. I would use index funds instead of individual stocks.
I would tally up to see how much I want/need to spend annually in retirement. What will your annual expenses be including healthcare?
Depending on the answer to the above, I would start entertaining the idea of selling one of the 2 homes if you need cash flow help. Might not be needed at all but by selling one you have one less house to maintain plus all of that equity can be added to your portfolio.
No kids might mean less incentive to leave a legacy (personal decision for you to make though)? I would research and think about using Single Premium Immediate Annuities. Good tool to support a higher withdrawal rate early in retirement plus offers some longevity insurance.
I would research how to best optimize SS timing for your specific situation. That kind of planning isn't in my wheelhouse but I'm fairly certain the optimal plan would not be to claim SS at 62 in most cases like yours where there are substantial assets.
I would tally up to see how much I want/need to spend annually in retirement. What will your annual expenses be including healthcare?
Depending on the answer to the above, I would start entertaining the idea of selling one of the 2 homes if you need cash flow help. Might not be needed at all but by selling one you have one less house to maintain plus all of that equity can be added to your portfolio.
No kids might mean less incentive to leave a legacy (personal decision for you to make though)? I would research and think about using Single Premium Immediate Annuities. Good tool to support a higher withdrawal rate early in retirement plus offers some longevity insurance.
I would research how to best optimize SS timing for your specific situation. That kind of planning isn't in my wheelhouse but I'm fairly certain the optimal plan would not be to claim SS at 62 in most cases like yours where there are substantial assets.
Re: What if I have enough money?
1) Get newer cars that have better safety features. You don't need to get a new cars with all the latest bells and whistles but ESC became standard in about 2012 and newer cars have a lot better side airbags than a 2004 model.mitchmcc wrote:So my question is, for fun, what would you do in my place? What high-level
things would you change?
2) You have do doubt heard the criticisms of investing strategies like "dividend champions or DOW "Dogs"" but a big problem can be that as you get older and less capable things like that are harder to manage. A common problem with people start to decline mentally is that they may make big financial mistakes before anyone notices and can stop them. You may have problems doing this when you are older or if a less financially savvy spouse has to manage it some day. I would transition to index funds or target date funds just to make things easier when you are older. If you have any relatives that are in their 80's or 90's try to picture them signing on the internet and buying and selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stock. That will likely be you some day and you need to make the transition to a simpler portfolio before you actually need to.
3) When to start Social Security varies with the spouses ages and earnings but often makes sense for the lower earner to start at 62 and the higher earner to wait until 70 or at least their full retirement age. A big problem with your plan to start Social Security so early is that you could really get hit hard with taxes because of the way that Social Security is taxed.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Taxatio ... y_benefits
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Social_ ... calculator
I would take a hard look at delaying starting Social Security and doing Roth conversions up to the top of the 15% federal tax bracket each year. Doing the Roth conversions in the 15% federal tax bracket could really help you later if one of your survives the other and is then filling in the higher single tax brackets. Single people hit the 25% tax bracket real quick and they could also have their social security taxed and be in an even higher effective tax bracket.
4) I'm not sure what articles you are reading that made you think that bonds are not appropriate anymore. I would suspect that it is an article or website that is trying to sell you something. There are various opinions about just what percentage you should have in bonds but at the age of 61 having an asset allocation of somewhere around 50 to 60 percent bonds would be very reasonable.
Last edited by Watty on Wed May 17, 2017 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if I have enough money?
The real question is what is your monthly living expenses? That is the other half of the equation you need to know.
Re: What if I have enough money?
I would run the calculators:mitchmcc wrote:So my question is, for fun, what would you do in my place? What high-level things would you change?
firecalc.com
cfiresim.com
The Fidelity one (used to be called RIP or something like that)
Maybe some others ..., and read this 14 (so far) part series:
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2016/12/ ... t-1-intro/
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Re: What if I have enough money?
Off hand:
(1) Delay Social Security, and maybe do a modest SPIA instead for now;
(2) Transition everything else to simple balanced funds with a company like Vanguard;
(3) Then arrange regular withdrawals in a tax-efficient way to complete your income needs, which again a company like Vanguard will make easy.
Enjoy!
(1) Delay Social Security, and maybe do a modest SPIA instead for now;
(2) Transition everything else to simple balanced funds with a company like Vanguard;
(3) Then arrange regular withdrawals in a tax-efficient way to complete your income needs, which again a company like Vanguard will make easy.
Enjoy!
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Re: What if I have enough money?
If you lost half or more of your stock profolio would it change things?
What would you do with the extra money assuming stocks returned 7% a year?
I look at it this way:
If there was a heads or tails game, that I win $200 on heads and lose $100 I would play it all day.
If there was a heads or tails game, that I win ,my retirement account is doubled on heads and my retirement account is halves on tails.
That is completely different story.
IMO if the money you have grows at 1%-2% in Bonds or a CD and you have enough why risk it?
What would you do with the extra money assuming stocks returned 7% a year?
I look at it this way:
If there was a heads or tails game, that I win $200 on heads and lose $100 I would play it all day.
If there was a heads or tails game, that I win ,my retirement account is doubled on heads and my retirement account is halves on tails.
That is completely different story.
IMO if the money you have grows at 1%-2% in Bonds or a CD and you have enough why risk it?
Re: What if I have enough money?
I agree with the above posters. You DO have enough money to retire, but not at any standard of living. We don't know what you spend.
We also don't know what your health is like, which can impact your decision of when to take SSI (the longer you expect to live, the more sense it makes to delay taking it and enjoy a higher income for more years).
I think your AA is reasonable, as are your plans. I may want to get some contract work on the front end to pay for a nice trip or two and a couple of car upgrades before calling it quits altogether, if I were you. Also to keep your resume dusted off in case the next market correction is particularly severe and you end up wanting to work a few more years (even part time) to avoid drawing down on your stocks at the worst time.
But in general, I say you set about planning what you want to do for the remaining years - hopefully decades - of your life. Work, play, volunteer, rest, love, travel, give. The options are truly endless. Congratulations.
We also don't know what your health is like, which can impact your decision of when to take SSI (the longer you expect to live, the more sense it makes to delay taking it and enjoy a higher income for more years).
I think your AA is reasonable, as are your plans. I may want to get some contract work on the front end to pay for a nice trip or two and a couple of car upgrades before calling it quits altogether, if I were you. Also to keep your resume dusted off in case the next market correction is particularly severe and you end up wanting to work a few more years (even part time) to avoid drawing down on your stocks at the worst time.
But in general, I say you set about planning what you want to do for the remaining years - hopefully decades - of your life. Work, play, volunteer, rest, love, travel, give. The options are truly endless. Congratulations.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
Re: What if I have enough money?
What is your annual expense and how much do you expect your healthcare costs to add to them?
Assuming your annual expenses are low like I am guessing they are, I will add a +1 for SPIA for you and your spouse. If you want to leave no legacy get a couple of good SPIAs with COLA for you and your spouse via different insurance companies such that it covers all your basic expenses for you and your spouse. Along with SS you will have zero stress about the stock market and bonds and interest rates and are essentially set with an income stream for life.
The money left over can be used for luxuries, fun, travel or anything else you like. Personally, I would sell the individual stocks and go with some solidly diversified index funds, but if you have your SPIA + SS covering all your expenses it doesn't really matter, your portfolio is play money anyway.
Congratulations. You have obviously worked hard your whole life and done well for yourself. Go have fun and quit the rat race. Life is short.
Assuming your annual expenses are low like I am guessing they are, I will add a +1 for SPIA for you and your spouse. If you want to leave no legacy get a couple of good SPIAs with COLA for you and your spouse via different insurance companies such that it covers all your basic expenses for you and your spouse. Along with SS you will have zero stress about the stock market and bonds and interest rates and are essentially set with an income stream for life.
The money left over can be used for luxuries, fun, travel or anything else you like. Personally, I would sell the individual stocks and go with some solidly diversified index funds, but if you have your SPIA + SS covering all your expenses it doesn't really matter, your portfolio is play money anyway.
Congratulations. You have obviously worked hard your whole life and done well for yourself. Go have fun and quit the rat race. Life is short.
Re: What if I have enough money?
What are your annual or monthly expenses? Not your last salary, your expenses.
Yes, everyone else asked that, because without that information, no advice can be given.
Yes, everyone else asked that, because without that information, no advice can be given.
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Re: What if I have enough money?
A point not raised regarding delaying SS benefits is the ratio of your retirement savings in tax deferred accounts to taxable and Roth accounts. If a high percentage of your savings is in a 401k, delaying SS benefits will create at least a few years where withdrawals from your 401k could be at a fairly low tax rate. You should also check out the taxation of SS benefits topic on the BH Wiki.
Try to think in terms of spendable income, i.e., income after taxes.
Try to think in terms of spendable income, i.e., income after taxes.
Re: What if I have enough money?
"Health care" or "health insurance"? I hope you mean the latter and not "self-insuring" with a revenue stream. The former could bankrupt you over that interval. No lie. Especially if you're uninsured and have substantial assets.mitchmcc wrote:
Since I will have to pay for my own health care until I am 65, I was thinking of taking
my SS early at 62 to consider that my own private health care payment.
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"
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Re: What if I have enough money?
OP,
I made a move to protect what we had in 2008 towards LDI/LMP/FR.
Essentially we bought "straddles" in the form of GLWB deferred annuities.
In the years since, I was able to grow the Discretionary bigly, which is currently ~60% cash; was as much as 85% cash in April.
YMMV
See notes below.
Agree with Foley^… think in terms of Income, not investments in all except Discretionary.
I made a move to protect what we had in 2008 towards LDI/LMP/FR.
Essentially we bought "straddles" in the form of GLWB deferred annuities.
In the years since, I was able to grow the Discretionary bigly, which is currently ~60% cash; was as much as 85% cash in April.
YMMV
See notes below.
Agree with Foley^… think in terms of Income, not investments in all except Discretionary.
Rev012718; 4 Incm stream buckets: SS+pension; dfr'd GLWB VA & FI anntys, by time & $$ laddered; Discretionary; Rentals. LTCi. Own, not asset. Tax TBT%. Early SS. FundRatio (FR) >1.1 67/70yo
Re: What if I have enough money?
What are your expenses?
Do you have any retirement accounts, or is everything in taxable?
Your investments are currently invested like someone who values cash flow. Your comments sound like you think retiring without having the cash flow makes you nervous. Your move towards collecting social security early also sounds like someone who is going to miss that paycheck.
Some suggestions:
- If you really need that steady check, consider a single premium immediate annuity, preferably in an amount such that the payment, plus your existing annuity payment, plus your pension payment, would cover your core living expenses (not recreational stuff or wants/needs). The idea is that you have a regular check coming in so you don't panic and know you're covered if the worst happens. You want enough to keep food on the table, the utilities going, and a roof over your head.
- Your social security check is your most valuable annuity. Waiting to collect at 70 could return 8% or so per year, then results in an inflation adjusted annuity at that point. Delay collecting if you can. File for the lower income spousal social security at 62. When you file at 70, check to see if the spouse will get more by filing for spousal income (1/2 your payment). When you pass, make sure the spouse files for survivor benefits (she takes over the larger of the two social security checks). That will give you the biggest income stream in about ten years.
- If you have any traditional retirement plans, such as IRAs, or 401ks, start converting them over to Roth IRAs gradually. Now that your income has dropped significantly, your taxes will be the lowest of your lifetime. Now is when you can get the money out at the lowest tax rate.
- Get health insurance to cover you until you're 65. Don't self-insure. Given that you're older, and health issues are more likely, self-insurance can potentially wipe you out. This is exactly what insurance is for, to assume those risks. If you can, get on Obamacare. With lower income, you may qualify for assistance or subsidies on the premiums.
- Don't think of your investment portfolio in terms of dividends and interest. Think in terms of total market return. The benefit of long term capital gains is that if you're married filing jointly and make up to $75,900, your long term capital gains tax rate is 0%. That means if you emphasize qualified dividends and sell stocks when you need to raise money, you may not need to pay taxes on those items. Tax on interest and annuities will be taxable.
- If you structure your equities correctly to emphasize total market return rather than dividend growth investing, you will do better over the long term. However, if you are completely in taxable accounts, then stick with what you know, and don't sell. Selling will generate taxable events, so if you do decide to adjust your investment strategy, you will need to do it gradually, and in a tax-aware manner.
Plan for how you want to generate income and live off your investments. You may want to go to a paid fiduciary fee-only financial advisor if you're completely unprepared for how to structure your accounts as you switch from accumulating mode to distributing mode.
You have enough money to retire. The question is how to set up that money to support your expenses, and whether or not your portfolio supports your desired expenses.
Do you have any retirement accounts, or is everything in taxable?
Your investments are currently invested like someone who values cash flow. Your comments sound like you think retiring without having the cash flow makes you nervous. Your move towards collecting social security early also sounds like someone who is going to miss that paycheck.
Some suggestions:
- If you really need that steady check, consider a single premium immediate annuity, preferably in an amount such that the payment, plus your existing annuity payment, plus your pension payment, would cover your core living expenses (not recreational stuff or wants/needs). The idea is that you have a regular check coming in so you don't panic and know you're covered if the worst happens. You want enough to keep food on the table, the utilities going, and a roof over your head.
- Your social security check is your most valuable annuity. Waiting to collect at 70 could return 8% or so per year, then results in an inflation adjusted annuity at that point. Delay collecting if you can. File for the lower income spousal social security at 62. When you file at 70, check to see if the spouse will get more by filing for spousal income (1/2 your payment). When you pass, make sure the spouse files for survivor benefits (she takes over the larger of the two social security checks). That will give you the biggest income stream in about ten years.
- If you have any traditional retirement plans, such as IRAs, or 401ks, start converting them over to Roth IRAs gradually. Now that your income has dropped significantly, your taxes will be the lowest of your lifetime. Now is when you can get the money out at the lowest tax rate.
- Get health insurance to cover you until you're 65. Don't self-insure. Given that you're older, and health issues are more likely, self-insurance can potentially wipe you out. This is exactly what insurance is for, to assume those risks. If you can, get on Obamacare. With lower income, you may qualify for assistance or subsidies on the premiums.
- Don't think of your investment portfolio in terms of dividends and interest. Think in terms of total market return. The benefit of long term capital gains is that if you're married filing jointly and make up to $75,900, your long term capital gains tax rate is 0%. That means if you emphasize qualified dividends and sell stocks when you need to raise money, you may not need to pay taxes on those items. Tax on interest and annuities will be taxable.
- If you structure your equities correctly to emphasize total market return rather than dividend growth investing, you will do better over the long term. However, if you are completely in taxable accounts, then stick with what you know, and don't sell. Selling will generate taxable events, so if you do decide to adjust your investment strategy, you will need to do it gradually, and in a tax-aware manner.
Plan for how you want to generate income and live off your investments. You may want to go to a paid fiduciary fee-only financial advisor if you're completely unprepared for how to structure your accounts as you switch from accumulating mode to distributing mode.
You have enough money to retire. The question is how to set up that money to support your expenses, and whether or not your portfolio supports your desired expenses.
Re: What if I have enough money?
Your income will $47,000 a year, based on the information you provided in your post. Ignoring the health insurance issue for now, is that enough money to live on -- including income taxes?
You said you have large positions in a few stocks, but that is pretty vague. You are posting in a forum where the philosophy is to invest in low cost, index funds. Is there some reason that you think your dividend stocks are a better option than an S&P 500 fund? Have you compared your portfolio returns to an S&P 500 funds to see if you are really doing better?
I am not sure why you think the 60/40 rule is no longer applicable or that "no one seems to like bonds anymore." And even if that were true, the only thing that matters is what is best for your situation.
You said you have large positions in a few stocks, but that is pretty vague. You are posting in a forum where the philosophy is to invest in low cost, index funds. Is there some reason that you think your dividend stocks are a better option than an S&P 500 fund? Have you compared your portfolio returns to an S&P 500 funds to see if you are really doing better?
I am not sure why you think the 60/40 rule is no longer applicable or that "no one seems to like bonds anymore." And even if that were true, the only thing that matters is what is best for your situation.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Re: What if I have enough money?
Thanks to all who replied. Sorry for the delay, but I was away!
I will investigate the widely recommended SPIA option, and when I said "health care" I meant "health insurance".
My wife and I are both healthy for our ages, although I have a pacemaker and had a hip replacement.
I am very interested in the "Boglehead" philosophy... I just did not find out about it until I had a pretty large
and invested amount of money in Fidelity. I believe it would behoove me to look again at their "balanced
funds" options.
As for my accounts, about $400K is in a regular account,and the rest is in various IRA, Keogh, and Roth
accounts. I did not start my Roth early enough, but have about $30K in those for my wife and myself.
FWIW, Fidelity's retirement calculator says I will have almost the entire amount left when I die! I assume
that is because they are projecting the 7% market gains.... I typically assume I will only make 3-4%.
We are going to replace the cars soon.
Finally, I may want to work at *something*, just to keep from going crazy, but it might be driving an airport
shuttle, or something besides programming (re-watch "Office Space" to see why).
Thanks again!
I will investigate the widely recommended SPIA option, and when I said "health care" I meant "health insurance".
My wife and I are both healthy for our ages, although I have a pacemaker and had a hip replacement.
I am very interested in the "Boglehead" philosophy... I just did not find out about it until I had a pretty large
and invested amount of money in Fidelity. I believe it would behoove me to look again at their "balanced
funds" options.
As for my accounts, about $400K is in a regular account,and the rest is in various IRA, Keogh, and Roth
accounts. I did not start my Roth early enough, but have about $30K in those for my wife and myself.
FWIW, Fidelity's retirement calculator says I will have almost the entire amount left when I die! I assume
that is because they are projecting the 7% market gains.... I typically assume I will only make 3-4%.
We are going to replace the cars soon.
Finally, I may want to work at *something*, just to keep from going crazy, but it might be driving an airport
shuttle, or something besides programming (re-watch "Office Space" to see why).
Thanks again!
Re: What if I have enough money?
Are you using the one with Monte Carlo simulation? For that, they give you three scenarios, average market return, below market return and significantly below market return.mitchmcc wrote:FWIW, Fidelity's retirement calculator says I will have almost the entire amount left when I die! I assume
that is because they are projecting the 7% market gains.... I typically assume I will only make 3-4%.
Re: What if I have enough money?
livesoft wrote:I would run the calculators:mitchmcc wrote:So my question is, for fun, what would you do in my place? What high-level things would you change?
firecalc.com
cfiresim.com
The Fidelity one (used to be called RIP or something like that)
Maybe some others ..., and read this 14 (so far) part series:
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2016/12/ ... t-1-intro/
And I would add https://www.i-orp.com/ORPparms.html because it will answer the question that you have omitted, which is how much you can spend. Compare that with how much you would LIKE to spend and there's your answer.
Re: What if I have enough money?
You mention you have 2 houses -- is one of them rented? If you're not renting or living in the house, then you're probably better off selling that, hopefully taking tax free gains and adding that to your stock/bond portfolio so that it generates some additional income.
You don't mention expenses, so hard to say how much additional income you need. You could also look into consulting if you need to generate additional income.
You don't mention expenses, so hard to say how much additional income you need. You could also look into consulting if you need to generate additional income.
Last edited by anoop on Sun May 21, 2017 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if I have enough money?
Do you plan to downsize and move to a lower cost of living area? I mean you have a lot of home equity locked up in yoir net worth.