27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

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Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:47 am

Hey Bogleheads,
First off thanks in advance for any advice provided, i have really enjoyed just being a reader of the Forum up until this point.
I am a 27 year old who has been saving money his whole life, and investing since 18 with guidance from a financial advisor, who later ( about 3 years ago ) became my " Financial Planner" over the past year and especially the past few months i have started to research/learn and become more interested in the financial world from where i was at just handing my money for someone to deal with.
As a lot of people I have started to become weary of Fees and the impact they will have one my life over time.
so here is where i am,

I have a financial planner who then hires a 3rd party money management on my behalf ( Brinker Capital ) who then invests my money in a set group of funds through Fidelity.. ( This is my main Saving/ retirement/ Investment Account ) It has performed decent but has some very questionable high fee Funds in it.. This account is about 2 years old.

I also have What i was told is a "Cash Value Life Insurance plan" or Whole Life i believe. This is something I have had for awhile that was one of the first things my Advisor set up with/for me.. When i was 18 it sounded like this amazing thing, but now I am weary.. Though I maxed it out young and haven't been able to pay into the premiums for a couple years.. It should start to turn to the upside soon.


So a couple questions I am having..


Is the 3rd prty money management set up just a big waist of money through fees? Would it be more beneficial to set up something like a 3-4 fund Lazy portfolio?

Is the Life insurance plan a total waist.. or since i got in early and the cost of insurance is super cheap is it something worth keeping as part of my portfolio?


Would love to hear any thoughts / comments / concerns..


** Side note, I am self employed so I do not have a 401k.

Thanks Everyone

mckaydw
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:47 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby mckaydw » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:09 am

If I'm in your shoes I would part ways with the financial advisor and move my funds into low cost accounts and funds that I manage myself. I would also get rid of whole life and replace it with low cost term insurance.

i<3Investing
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:29 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby i<3Investing » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:22 am

Mstrmcky wrote:Is the 3rd prty money management set up just a big waist of money through fees? Would it be more beneficial to set up something like a 3-4 fund Lazy portfolio?


Yes. You'll save much more in the long run. At the very least you can move your money to fidelity and invest in the same funds without the overhead and save 1-2% each year. But lazy portfolios would be fine too.

Mstrmcky wrote:Is the Life insurance plan a total waist.. or since i got in early and the cost of insurance is super cheap is it something worth keeping as part of my portfolio?


Yes. Total waste. But you're lucky since you found this out at 27 instead of 57. If you need insurance, go get term life and invest the difference. Go to a different broker or find it online. I recently saw that Costco is selling term to it's members and it seemed pretty reasonably priced. You'll pay 15% of what you do now and can invest the other 85% to grow significantly faster.

Mstrmcky wrote:** Side note, I am self employed so I do not have a 401k.


Even though you don't have a 401k, self employed people have really good retirement options. Look into SepIRA or Solo 401k or RothIRA and see what works best for you.

Don't feel bad either. I didn't get rid of whole life until 30 and i'm doing just fine now.

financeidiot
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby financeidiot » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:40 am

Thanks for posting!

I think this challenge has two parts, math and confidence.

The math problem is simple. If you post your current investment allocation, we can compare it to your preferred 3-fund low-cost index portfolio and show you the cost savings/difference for performance. As the prior posters noted, it's a near certainty that you're overpaying your advisor, 3rd party management firm, and the management of the funds in which you are invested. Also you don't need whole life insurance (if you don't have dependents you don't need life insurance at all).

The confidence problem is more complicated. Obviously, you thought a financial advisor was a good idea at one point or you wouldn't have one. This will require some self-reflection and study:
Do you want to fire your financial advisor? Why, specifically (violation of trust? high fees? wrong investments? poor communication)?
Are you confident firing your financial advisor? If not, why not?
What do you need to do to feel confident enough to fire your financial advisor?
If you fire your financial advisor, are you confident in managing your investments yourself? If not, why not?
What do you need to do to feel confident enough to manage your own investments?
If you are going to manage your own finances, what is your philosophy? Why do you believe it?
How will you test your philosophy? Under what conditions will you change it?
If you would still rather have a professional manage your finances, what do you need them to do that you don't feel comfortable doing yourself? How can you find someone who does what you need, well, and at a fair price?

While you're in a bad (but fixable) spot now, the worst case scenarios would be moving from a bad advisor to a worse one or withdrawing from investing altogether.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:03 pm

Thank you guys already for the great responses. So far kind of confirming what i have been thinking ( that i am over paying )

@financeidiot

As far as my allocation, What would be helpful to post? My funds with in my managed account ?
I'd love some hands on insight so let me know what helps on this front.

I also think you are spot on on the confidence part.
My initial reason for getting one was I was 18 had no clue what i was doing and was sitting on to much in a checking account.
I could fire my guy though we have some what of a relationship after 8 or so years. If it was the right move financially i have no problem moving on.
I have never had an issue managing money / saving or investing.

My biggest concern is a bear market and how to prepare/ protect my investments against it to the best i can ( obviously not selling or pulling out of the market just with preparation and fund choice ) on my own and not having the safety net of someone to call in those times haha.


Thanks guys!

iamlucky13
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby iamlucky13 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:39 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:I could fire my guy though we have some what of a relationship after 8 or so years. If it was the right move financially i have no problem moving on.
I have never had an issue managing money / saving or investing.


Emphasizing the customer relationship is a retention tactic. Keep in mind you're investing for your future, not your financial adviser's. The question for you is whether that relationship brings extra value to you. When you were young and did not know much about investing, it sounds like it did. Now that you're learning more, the value of being able to ask questions of someone who is familiar with your goals arguably has declining value.

financeidiot
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby financeidiot » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:39 pm

There's a forum guide on providing investment information (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212). Here's the relevant snippet. The key is to know the % invested in each fund and the expense ratio of each fund. It's helpful to know the total amount invested but that's up to you.

Current assets

Taxable
xx% cash (for investing – do not include emergency funds)
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
xx% stock company name (ticker symbol)

401k
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
Company match?

Roth IRA at Vanguard
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Rollover IRA at Schwab
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

403b
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
Company match?

SIMPLE IRA at Fidelity
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Traditional IRA at Vanguard
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Total of All Accounts Together (not each account individually) should equal 100%.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:39 pm

-iamlucky13, very valid points. Thank you


-financeidiot. Sounds good I'll put this info together for the post the best I can.
Thank you

NYCguy
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby NYCguy » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:07 pm

Good that you were addressed this problem while you're young and have not waste a lifetime of fees. It really matters. Well done.
If your out-go is greater than your income, your upkeep will be your DOWNFALL.

Nearly A Moose
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:28 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Nearly A Moose » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:51 am

When you update, you might explain whether there are any special circumstances that would make you think you are in particular need of such an elaborate financial services team (or that would make you a "Good target" for that type of sales pitch). High income? A profession associated with high income? High net worth from an inheritance or trust fund? It's a bit unusual to have that much of an apparatus so early, and especially at 18. That shouldn't really change the suggestions you're given, but sometimes context helps.

Fwiw, last year I ended my business relationship with my former financial advisor of ~10 years. He was/is my father's financial advisor, and I unquestioningly assumed after I graduated that (1) I needed an FA and (2) I should work with him. After 10 years of tax drag, subpar returns due to a momentum-based market timing strategy that mistimed virtually all of 2009-2016, and a whole life policy (that I'm evaluating dropping), I cut ties. The process was awkward and a bit painful personally, as I like him personally, he has been known to the family for years, and he's still a trusted confidante of my father, but after a week or so it was a liberating feeling. I ended up having a long conversation with him about his investment strategy before I severed ties - partly as a courtesy and partly to see how he reacted to my plan - and I got so much empty talk about "outsmarting the market," how he was tweaking his strategy to it get whipsawed like it did, etc., and a number of comments that just made no sense (e.g. That mutual funds aren't tax efficient - Vanguard's are!) that I was annoyed enough that I severed ties shortly afterward. It was particularly hard because I tend to be a pretty loyal person. That wasn't really what you were asking, but I thought I'd share in case it helps.

I now run a pretty simple "4 fund" portfolio (not really 4 funds because it's spread over a bunch of accounts) and feel pretty good that with a spreadsheet and this forum, I can work out what I need to do.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:52 am

financeidiot wrote:There's a forum guide on providing investment information (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6212). Here's the relevant snippet. The key is to know the % invested in each fund and the expense ratio of each fund. It's helpful to know the total amount invested but that's up to you.

Current assets

Taxable
xx% cash (for investing – do not include emergency funds)
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
xx% stock company name (ticker symbol)

401k
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
Company match?

Roth IRA at Vanguard
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Rollover IRA at Schwab
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

403b
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)
Company match?

SIMPLE IRA at Fidelity
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Traditional IRA at Vanguard
xx% fund name (ticker symbol) (expense ratio)

Total of All Accounts Together (not each account individually) should equal 100%.



Hey Finance Idiot.
Heres the funds breakdown in my taxable ACCT ( the managed one that i mentioned originally )

SYM %of portfolio EXP Ratio ( Gross )

CASH - 0.72%
ACSAX 1.02% EXP Ratio: 2.14%
BEXFX 2.9% EXP Ratio: 1.45%
INUTX 1.54% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
ELGAX 8.68% EXP Ratio: 1.07%
DDVAX 8.62% EXP Ratio: 0.97%
DLTNX 2.14% EXP Ratio: 0.72%
DELNX 0.96% EXP Ratio: 1.09%
DMCRX 2.52% EXP Ratio: 1.53%
DEVDX 1.67% EXP Ratio: 1.86%
LCMAX 1.4% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
FUSVX 7.25% EXP Ratio: 0.045%
FLTMX 5.01% EXP Ratio: 0.35%
MGIAX 4.97% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
NOITX 2.13% EXP Ratio: 0.51%
TRSAX 9.19% EXP Ratio: 0.93%
SMVTX 5.88% EXP Ratio: 1.12%
RNCOX 3.09% EXP Ratio: 2.81%
RSIVX 1.09% EXP Ratio: 1.24%
PAITX 5.38% EXP Ratio: 1.08%
TGIGX 9.15% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
TFOAX 4.64% EXP Ratio: 1.32%
TVOAX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.68%
RSNRX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.44%
WAIOX 3.54% EXP Ratio: 2.22%
WAFMX 0.95% EXP Ratio: 2.39%

Some of these have like 5.75% loads too..

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:03 am

Nearly A Moose wrote:When you update, you might explain whether there are any special circumstances that would make you think you are in particular need of such an elaborate financial services team (or that would make you a "Good target" for that type of sales pitch). High income? A profession associated with high income? High net worth from an inheritance or trust fund? It's a bit unusual to have that much of an apparatus so early, and especially at 18. That shouldn't really change the suggestions you're given, but sometimes context helps.

Fwiw, last year I ended my business relationship with my former financial advisor of ~10 years. He was/is my father's financial advisor, and I unquestioningly assumed after I graduated that (1) I needed an FA and (2) I should work with him. After 10 years of tax drag, subpar returns due to a momentum-based market timing strategy that mistimed virtually all of 2009-2016, and a whole life policy (that I'm evaluating dropping), I cut ties. The process was awkward and a bit painful personally, as I like him personally, he has been known to the family for years, and he's still a trusted confidante of my father, but after a week or so it was a liberating feeling. I ended up having a long conversation with him about his investment strategy before I severed ties - partly as a courtesy and partly to see how he reacted to my plan - and I got so much empty talk about "outsmarting the market," how he was tweaking his strategy to it get whipsawed like it did, etc., and a number of comments that just made no sense (e.g. That mutual funds aren't tax efficient - Vanguard's are!) that I was annoyed enough that I severed ties shortly afterward. It was particularly hard because I tend to be a pretty loyal person. That wasn't really what you were asking, but I thought I'd share in case it helps.

I now run a pretty simple "4 fund" portfolio (not really 4 funds because it's spread over a bunch of accounts) and feel pretty good that with a spreadsheet and this forum, I can work out what I need to do.



Thanks for the comment NearlyAMoose,

So when I started at 18. My financial advisor was just that.. It was just the guy ( who at the time worked for a big firm ) and i had a simple american funds account, and my first whole life plan ( which i was sold into because it was supposed to be GREAT and cheap since i was so young) then as i aged and earned more this rolled into a new whole life plan ( different provider) and my advisor left his big firm and started his own.. Then at about 24-5 so a couple years ago we moved on from the american funds account to the 3rd party money management account structured through fidelity.. ( the paying 2 parties to then house the money with a 3rd really bothers me lately..) Not really high income, no inheritance or trust fund at all, profession could have a little bit to do with it but, i think my curiosity as an 18yr in the mid west being young getting into this stuff prob had the most to do with it. ( just guessing ) i think when i started with my advisor when he was at his big firm. I was the youngest client there ( at the local office)

Your situation sounds pretty familiar to me ha..
My guy was recommended from a family member as well, and going on 10 years now, i feel the relationship side of it deff. has a huge effect on my decision here.
a couple weeks back when i brought my concerns with my portfolio, i also had a similar conversation.

Thanks for sharing this story.. Always good to know I am not the only one!

Nearly A Moose
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:28 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Nearly A Moose » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:40 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
Nearly A Moose wrote:When you update, you might explain whether there are any special circumstances that would make you think you are in particular need of such an elaborate financial services team (or that would make you a "Good target" for that type of sales pitch). High income? A profession associated with high income? High net worth from an inheritance or trust fund? It's a bit unusual to have that much of an apparatus so early, and especially at 18. That shouldn't really change the suggestions you're given, but sometimes context helps.

Fwiw, last year I ended my business relationship with my former financial advisor of ~10 years. He was/is my father's financial advisor, and I unquestioningly assumed after I graduated that (1) I needed an FA and (2) I should work with him. After 10 years of tax drag, subpar returns due to a momentum-based market timing strategy that mistimed virtually all of 2009-2016, and a whole life policy (that I'm evaluating dropping), I cut ties. The process was awkward and a bit painful personally, as I like him personally, he has been known to the family for years, and he's still a trusted confidante of my father, but after a week or so it was a liberating feeling. I ended up having a long conversation with him about his investment strategy before I severed ties - partly as a courtesy and partly to see how he reacted to my plan - and I got so much empty talk about "outsmarting the market," how he was tweaking his strategy to it get whipsawed like it did, etc., and a number of comments that just made no sense (e.g. That mutual funds aren't tax efficient - Vanguard's are!) that I was annoyed enough that I severed ties shortly afterward. It was particularly hard because I tend to be a pretty loyal person. That wasn't really what you were asking, but I thought I'd share in case it helps.

I now run a pretty simple "4 fund" portfolio (not really 4 funds because it's spread over a bunch of accounts) and feel pretty good that with a spreadsheet and this forum, I can work out what I need to do.



Thanks for the comment NearlyAMoose,

So when I started at 18. My financial advisor was just that.. It was just the guy ( who at the time worked for a big firm ) and i had a simple american funds account, and my first whole life plan ( which i was sold into because it was supposed to be GREAT and cheap since i was so young) then as i aged and earned more this rolled into a new whole life plan ( different provider) and my advisor left his big firm and started his own.. Then at about 24-5 so a couple years ago we moved on from the american funds account to the 3rd party money management account structured through fidelity.. ( the paying 2 parties to then house the money with a 3rd really bothers me lately..) Not really high income, no inheritance or trust fund at all, profession could have a little bit to do with it but, i think my curiosity as an 18yr in the mid west being young getting into this stuff prob had the most to do with it. ( just guessing ) i think when i started with my advisor when he was at his big firm. I was the youngest client there ( at the local office)

Your situation sounds pretty familiar to me ha..
My guy was recommended from a family member as well, and going on 10 years now, i feel the relationship side of it deff. has a huge effect on my decision here.
a couple weeks back when i brought my concerns with my portfolio, i also had a similar conversation.

Thanks for sharing this story.. Always good to know I am not the only one!


Fwiw, my old FA still texted me congratulations after my second kid was born. I think we'd be fine if we ever ended up playing golf together, for example.

I don't know what all those ticker symbols mean, and I generally don't comment on portfolio advice posts because I don't feel qualified, but that's a whole mess if funds. And those expense ratios are brutal. For example, WAFMX (whatever it is) has to beat its appropriate benchmark by nearly 2.4% every single year for it to be worth it. That's an exceedingly tough challenge.

Also, each time he trades one of those, you're incurring a tax hit. My FA had me cycling funds under a momentum strategy, and I had a several thousand dollar tax bill from it each year.

Do you have a detailed accounting of your cash inflows and outflows into the account? You might benefits from calculating your Internal Rate of Return (in excel, the XIRR function), net of expenses, fees, and loads. It's a bit complicated to set everything up if you have lots of trades, but it will show you exactly how well your FA is doing. Then use portfolio visualizer to compare it to some model simple buy and hold index portfolios. The results may be enlightening.

Also, I at first felt really good about myself each time my FA told me I was special and a potential "high earner" ... until I realized it was complete manure. No idea if you're getting the same thing, but thought I'd share.

pkcrafter
Posts: 11551
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby pkcrafter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:02 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
Heres the funds breakdown in my taxable ACCT ( the managed one that i mentioned originally )

SYM %of portfolio EXP Ratio ( Gross )

CASH - 0.72%
ACSAX 1.02% EXP Ratio: 2.14%
BEXFX 2.9% EXP Ratio: 1.45%
INUTX 1.54% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
ELGAX 8.68% EXP Ratio: 1.07%
DDVAX 8.62% EXP Ratio: 0.97%
DLTNX 2.14% EXP Ratio: 0.72%
DELNX 0.96% EXP Ratio: 1.09%
DMCRX 2.52% EXP Ratio: 1.53%
DEVDX 1.67% EXP Ratio: 1.86%
LCMAX 1.4% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
FUSVX 7.25% EXP Ratio: 0.045%
FLTMX 5.01% EXP Ratio: 0.35%
MGIAX 4.97% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
NOITX 2.13% EXP Ratio: 0.51%
TRSAX 9.19% EXP Ratio: 0.93%
SMVTX 5.88% EXP Ratio: 1.12%
RNCOX 3.09% EXP Ratio: 2.81%
RSIVX 1.09% EXP Ratio: 1.24%
PAITX 5.38% EXP Ratio: 1.08%
TGIGX 9.15% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
TFOAX 4.64% EXP Ratio: 1.32%
TVOAX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.68%
RSNRX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.44%
WAIOX 3.54% EXP Ratio: 2.22%
WAFMX 0.95% EXP Ratio: 2.39%

Some of these have like 5.75% loads too..


I don't know what to say about this list. I cannot imagine how anyone could come up with a worse one. The expense ratios are outrageous and the funds I looked up are very tax-inefficient. This guy has made no attempt to act in your best interest. Really, this is so bad that you should report him to FINRA or SEC. Does he even hold some kind of certification?

As for self-employment, you can open an individual plan, but we'll get to that as soon as the advisor is dumped.

Paul
Last edited by pkcrafter on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.

financeidiot
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby financeidiot » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:20 pm

TLDNR: Fire your advisor and invest in a simple index fund strategy. Open an IRA/Roth IRA/Solo 401k. If you don't max out your tax advantaged accounts, at least place your tax-inefficient investments there.

Here's a quick summary. The international/domestic equity split could be incorrect because I didn't split up the actively managed equity funds into smaller pieces.

Your investments divide as (adds up to 99.28%):
2.78% Alternatives
13.75% Bonds
82.75% Equities (21% international/61% U.S.)

Within equities, your investments divide as follows:
3.0% Micro Cap
4.7% Emerging Markets
5.4% Small Cap
7.1% Mid Cap
16.8% International (Non-Emerging)
63% Large Cap

Your total expenses for the portfolio at your current allocation is 1.10%. However, you're also paying additional load fees on 24.7% of your portfolio. The biggest offenders are DDVAX and ELGAX (5.75% loads). It also appears your provided expense ratios are a little higher than those on MorningStar, which could be an additional charge by the advisor or broker.

You have duplicate or triplicate funds for high yield bonds, intermediate bonds, municipal bonds, large cap equities, small cap equities, emerging equities, and international equities. The advisor could be attempting some kind of tax loss harvesting strategy, but it's difficult to imagine why anyone needs so many versions of the same funds or how what you have is a coherent investment strategy.

You could cut costs and achieve similar holdings with a target date fund or lazy portfolio. For comparison to your current 1.10% + loads costs:

2055 Target-Date Fund, VFFVX, 0.16% expense ratio
10% Bonds
36% International Equities
54% U.S. Stocks

3-Fund Portfolio, 0.08% total expense ratio
20% Total Bond Index (BND, 0.06% expense ratio)
30% Total International Equities Index (VTI, 0.05% expense ratio)
50% Total U.S. Equities Index (VXUS, 0.11% expense ratio)

You should also consider the location of your current accounts. There's no reason to have so many different funds (and presumably a high trade volume) in a taxable account. At a minimum, you could have your non-municipal bond funds in a non-advantaged account (IRA, Roth IRA, 401k).

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:58 pm

Nearly A Moose wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
Nearly A Moose wrote:When you update, you might explain whether there are any special circumstances that would make you think you are in particular need of such an elaborate financial services team (or that would make you a "Good target" for that type of sales pitch). High income? A profession associated with high income? High net worth from an inheritance or trust fund? It's a bit unusual to have that much of an apparatus so early, and especially at 18. That shouldn't really change the suggestions you're given, but sometimes context helps.

Fwiw, last year I ended my business relationship with my former financial advisor of ~10 years. He was/is my father's financial advisor, and I unquestioningly assumed after I graduated that (1) I needed an FA and (2) I should work with him. After 10 years of tax drag, subpar returns due to a momentum-based market timing strategy that mistimed virtually all of 2009-2016, and a whole life policy (that I'm evaluating dropping), I cut ties. The process was awkward and a bit painful personally, as I like him personally, he has been known to the family for years, and he's still a trusted confidante of my father, but after a week or so it was a liberating feeling. I ended up having a long conversation with him about his investment strategy before I severed ties - partly as a courtesy and partly to see how he reacted to my plan - and I got so much empty talk about "outsmarting the market," how he was tweaking his strategy to it get whipsawed like it did, etc., and a number of comments that just made no sense (e.g. That mutual funds aren't tax efficient - Vanguard's are!) that I was annoyed enough that I severed ties shortly afterward. It was particularly hard because I tend to be a pretty loyal person. That wasn't really what you were asking, but I thought I'd share in case it helps.

I now run a pretty simple "4 fund" portfolio (not really 4 funds because it's spread over a bunch of accounts) and feel pretty good that with a spreadsheet and this forum, I can work out what I need to do.



Thanks for the comment NearlyAMoose,

So when I started at 18. My financial advisor was just that.. It was just the guy ( who at the time worked for a big firm ) and i had a simple american funds account, and my first whole life plan ( which i was sold into because it was supposed to be GREAT and cheap since i was so young) then as i aged and earned more this rolled into a new whole life plan ( different provider) and my advisor left his big firm and started his own.. Then at about 24-5 so a couple years ago we moved on from the american funds account to the 3rd party money management account structured through fidelity.. ( the paying 2 parties to then house the money with a 3rd really bothers me lately..) Not really high income, no inheritance or trust fund at all, profession could have a little bit to do with it but, i think my curiosity as an 18yr in the mid west being young getting into this stuff prob had the most to do with it. ( just guessing ) i think when i started with my advisor when he was at his big firm. I was the youngest client there ( at the local office)

Your situation sounds pretty familiar to me ha..
My guy was recommended from a family member as well, and going on 10 years now, i feel the relationship side of it deff. has a huge effect on my decision here.
a couple weeks back when i brought my concerns with my portfolio, i also had a similar conversation.

Thanks for sharing this story.. Always good to know I am not the only one!


Fwiw, my old FA still texted me congratulations after my second kid was born. I think we'd be fine if we ever ended up playing golf together, for example.

I don't know what all those ticker symbols mean, and I generally don't comment on portfolio advice posts because I don't feel qualified, but that's a whole mess if funds. And those expense ratios are brutal. For example, WAFMX (whatever it is) has to beat its appropriate benchmark by nearly 2.4% every single year for it to be worth it. That's an exceedingly tough challenge.

Also, each time he trades one of those, you're incurring a tax hit. My FA had me cycling funds under a momentum strategy, and I had a several thousand dollar tax bill from it each year.

Do you have a detailed accounting of your cash inflows and outflows into the account? You might benefits from calculating your Internal Rate of Return (in excel, the XIRR function), net of expenses, fees, and loads. It's a bit complicated to set everything up if you have lots of trades, but it will show you exactly how well your FA is doing. Then use portfolio visualizer to compare it to some model simple buy and hold index portfolios. The results may be enlightening.

Also, I at first felt really good about myself each time my FA told me I was special and a potential "high earner" ... until I realized it was complete manure. No idea if you're getting the same thing, but thought I'd share.


I think I understand what your talking of doing a internal rate of return sheet in excel .. now if I can figure out how to make it work is another story .. ha.

One of the frustrating parts here is that this isn't My FA persay, Because he hires a 3rd party money management firm on my behalf. Who I have never spoke to but they just have set plans based on a risk rating you choose etc.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:00 pm

pkcrafter wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
Heres the funds breakdown in my taxable ACCT ( the managed one that i mentioned originally )

SYM %of portfolio EXP Ratio ( Gross )

CASH - 0.72%
ACSAX 1.02% EXP Ratio: 2.14%
BEXFX 2.9% EXP Ratio: 1.45%
INUTX 1.54% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
ELGAX 8.68% EXP Ratio: 1.07%
DDVAX 8.62% EXP Ratio: 0.97%
DLTNX 2.14% EXP Ratio: 0.72%
DELNX 0.96% EXP Ratio: 1.09%
DMCRX 2.52% EXP Ratio: 1.53%
DEVDX 1.67% EXP Ratio: 1.86%
LCMAX 1.4% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
FUSVX 7.25% EXP Ratio: 0.045%
FLTMX 5.01% EXP Ratio: 0.35%
MGIAX 4.97% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
NOITX 2.13% EXP Ratio: 0.51%
TRSAX 9.19% EXP Ratio: 0.93%
SMVTX 5.88% EXP Ratio: 1.12%
RNCOX 3.09% EXP Ratio: 2.81%
RSIVX 1.09% EXP Ratio: 1.24%
PAITX 5.38% EXP Ratio: 1.08%
TGIGX 9.15% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
TFOAX 4.64% EXP Ratio: 1.32%
TVOAX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.68%
RSNRX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.44%
WAIOX 3.54% EXP Ratio: 2.22%
WAFMX 0.95% EXP Ratio: 2.39%

Some of these have like 5.75% loads too..


I don't know what to say about this list. I cannot imagine how anyone could come up with a worse one. The expense ratios are outrageous and the funds I looked up are very tax-inefficient. This guy has made no attempt to act in your best interest. Really, this is so bad that you should report him to FINRA or SEC. Does he even hold some kind of certification?

As for self-employment, you can open an individual plan, but we'll get to that as soon as the advisor is dumped.

Paul



Well this is never good to hear.. but can't say I'm surprised at this point. This is the "plan" the 3rd Party money management firm (Brinker capital who was hired by my FA ) put in place on my behalf.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:09 pm

financeidiot wrote:TLDNR: Fire your advisor and invest in a simple index fund strategy. Open an IRA/Roth IRA/Solo 401k. If you don't max out your tax advantaged accounts, at least place your tax-inefficient investments there.

Here's a quick summary. The international/domestic equity split could be incorrect because I didn't split up the actively managed equity funds into smaller pieces.

Your investments divide as (adds up to 99.28%):
2.78% Alternatives
13.75% Bonds
82.75% Equities (21% international/61% U.S.)

Within equities, your investments divide as follows:
3.0% Micro Cap
4.7% Emerging Markets
5.4% Small Cap
7.1% Mid Cap
16.8% International (Non-Emerging)
63% Large Cap

Your total expenses for the portfolio at your current allocation is 1.10%. However, you're also paying additional load fees on 24.7% of your portfolio. The biggest offenders are DDVAX and ELGAX (5.75% loads). It also appears your provided expense ratios are a little higher than those on MorningStar, which could be an additional charge by the advisor or broker.

You have duplicate or triplicate funds for high yield bonds, intermediate bonds, municipal bonds, large cap equities, small cap equities, emerging equities, and international equities. The advisor could be attempting some kind of tax loss harvesting strategy, but it's difficult to imagine why anyone needs so many versions of the same funds or how what you have is a coherent investment strategy.

You could cut costs and achieve similar holdings with a target date fund or lazy portfolio. For comparison to your current 1.10% + loads costs:

2055 Target-Date Fund, VFFVX, 0.16% expense ratio
10% Bonds
36% International Equities
54% U.S. Stocks

3-Fund Portfolio, 0.08% total expense ratio
20% Total Bond Index (BND, 0.06% expense ratio)
30% Total International Equities Index (VTI, 0.05% expense ratio)
50% Total U.S. Equities Index (VXUS, 0.11% expense ratio)

You should also consider the location of your current accounts. There's no reason to have so many different funds (and presumably a high trade volume) in a taxable account. At a minimum, you could have your non-municipal bond funds in a non-advantaged account (IRA, Roth IRA, 401k).


Wow thank you for all of this info. It's super helpful. I also noticed as I started to dig into this more the duplicate funds. Which is very confusing to me. And I don't think I'll ever get a straight answer on it ..
I think the problem and solution are becoming very clear here for my taxable side of things.

Also; So your saying it would be smart in my position to move some of this into a Roth IRA as wel rather than just keep it all in taxable ?

And The whole life. Life insurance thing is a whole nother issue

Thank you again for your advice

pkcrafter
Posts: 11551
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby pkcrafter » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:37 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
pkcrafter wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
Heres the funds breakdown in my taxable ACCT ( the managed one that i mentioned originally )

SYM %of portfolio EXP Ratio ( Gross )

CASH - 0.72%
ACSAX 1.02% EXP Ratio: 2.14%
BEXFX 2.9% EXP Ratio: 1.45%
INUTX 1.54% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
ELGAX 8.68% EXP Ratio: 1.07%
DDVAX 8.62% EXP Ratio: 0.97%
DLTNX 2.14% EXP Ratio: 0.72%
DELNX 0.96% EXP Ratio: 1.09%
DMCRX 2.52% EXP Ratio: 1.53%
DEVDX 1.67% EXP Ratio: 1.86%
LCMAX 1.4% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
FUSVX 7.25% EXP Ratio: 0.045%
FLTMX 5.01% EXP Ratio: 0.35%
MGIAX 4.97% EXP Ratio: 1.01%
NOITX 2.13% EXP Ratio: 0.51%
TRSAX 9.19% EXP Ratio: 0.93%
SMVTX 5.88% EXP Ratio: 1.12%
RNCOX 3.09% EXP Ratio: 2.81%
RSIVX 1.09% EXP Ratio: 1.24%
PAITX 5.38% EXP Ratio: 1.08%
TGIGX 9.15% EXP Ratio: 1.05%
TFOAX 4.64% EXP Ratio: 1.32%
TVOAX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.68%
RSNRX 2.78% EXP Ratio: 1.44%
WAIOX 3.54% EXP Ratio: 2.22%
WAFMX 0.95% EXP Ratio: 2.39%

Some of these have like 5.75% loads too..


I don't know what to say about this list. I cannot imagine how anyone could come up with a worse one. The expense ratios are outrageous and the funds I looked up are very tax-inefficient. This guy has made no attempt to act in your best interest. Really, this is so bad that you should report him to FINRA or SEC. Does he even hold some kind of certification?

As for self-employment, you can open an individual plan, but we'll get to that as soon as the advisor is dumped.

Paul



Well this is never good to hear.. but can't say I'm surprised at this point. This is the "plan" the 3rd Party money management firm (Brinker capital who was hired by my FA ) put in place on my behalf.


Well, the good part is you are now going to get on the right track. We will be here to answer any questions you have.

Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.

Nate79
Posts: 740
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Nate79 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:26 am

Search for one of the weekly how to get out of Edward Jones on here to figure out how to unwind this mess (I know you don't have an account at EJ but the reason and process is the same.)

I would not waste time with your advisor any more. He is a salesman. He is not a fiduciary. Figure out where you want to transfer this account to (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc). Call them up, tell them what you have and initiate a transfer. They will tell you what they can or can not hold and can or can not sell. You will need to look at the tax impact of selling any funds with a taxable gain.

Otherwise, shame on that salesman. Investing is not difficult. You could put your money in a target date fund and still come out ahead in fees and costs.

cherijoh
Posts: 3777
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby cherijoh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:56 am

Mstrmcky wrote: Wow thank you for all of this info. It's super helpful. I also noticed as I started to dig into this more the duplicate funds. Which is very confusing to me. And I don't think I'll ever get a straight answer on it ..
I think the problem and solution are becoming very clear here for my taxable side of things.

Also; So your saying it would be smart in my position to move some of this into a Roth IRA as wel rather than just keep it all in taxable ?



Making it confusing is a tactic used by sleazy money management firms to prevent defections. :annoyed

There is a $5500 annual limit on IRAs (traditional and Roth combined) assuming you earn at least $5500. But you have up until the tax filing deadline to still make a 2016 contribution.

cherijoh
Posts: 3777
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby cherijoh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:25 am

Nate79 wrote:Search for one of the weekly how to get out of Edward Jones on here to figure out how to unwind this mess (I know you don't have an account at EJ but the reason and process is the same.)

I would not waste time with your advisor any more. He is a salesman. He is not a fiduciary. Figure out where you want to transfer this account to (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc). Call them up, tell them what you have and initiate a transfer. They will tell you what they can or can not hold and can or can not sell. You will need to look at the tax impact of selling any funds with a taxable gain.

Otherwise, shame on that salesman. Investing is not difficult. You could put your money in a target date fund and still come out ahead in fees and costs.


One other thing to watch out for is that you might be charged to sell some of these funds if you bring them over "in kind". So you need to decide if it is better to sell there and bring over cash or transfer the fund and sell later. Look for whether or not the fund family is NTF (no transaction fee). This could vary from brokerage to brokerage.

It also might help to shop around - you can always buy the exchange traded fund (ETF) version of Vanguard's index funds at a third party brokerage (Schwab, TD Ameritrade, Fidelity, etc.) if they offer to give you a bonus or give you so many free trades for bringing your money over to them. Vanguard is rock bottom cheap on their own funds, but may not cut you the best deal on other company's funds.

If you decide to mitigate the tax hit and sell off this garbage gradually you should look at:
  • Do any funds have back end loads? Front-end loads are a sunk cost, but some share classes charge a back end load instead. (It usually declines over time). There may also be a short-term penalty imposed by the fund sponsor for selling within 60 or 90 days of purchase (to discourage frequent trading). In either case, it may be beneficial to wait to sell these funds.
  • How much capital gains are embedded in each fund? Any funds with the highest expense ratios but very little capital gains tax when you sell would be highest rank on the list to sell. Rank order all the funds and work your way down the list.
  • Look for stock market declines as selling opportunities to off load these dogs. This may be counterintuitive to the mantra of "buy low, sell high" but you minimize taxes and get the benefit of the recovery in the cheaper index funds that you immediately purchased with the sales proceeds.

financeidiot
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby financeidiot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:24 am

A good order of next steps for the next 2 weeks would be:

This weekend/next week:
1. Choose your next brokerage. Picking one of Schwab, Fidelity, TD Ameritrade, or Vanguard would simplify the process. I now do all my investing through Vanguard, but if Schwab and Fidelity had the same low costs and transaction fees they do now, I might keep my money there for the better service and more intuitive web sites. I also love Schwab's high-yield checking account. Pick the one with the customer service and website you like the best. They all have similar funds, but if you really want Vanguard funds at a non-Vanguard brokerage, you can pay the $4.95 per trade fee at Schwab and Fidelity (many Vanguard ETFs trade free at TD Ameritrade too).
2. Research what you're paying for now. Review your agreement with your advisor and the 3rd party management firm. Research the prospectus of the funds you currently have and confirm you have no additional loads or transaction funds.
3. Pick a desired asset allocation. An easy way to do this is to pick your bond allocation then decide how much in international equities you're willing to accept up to 50% of your equity allocation. A target-date fund or grabbing a 3-fund portfolio and copy/pasting to your situation would be simplest.
4. Evaluate your tax situation and decide if you want one or a combination of a Traditional IRA, Roth IRA, or Solo 401k. Decide which investments to place in the tax advantaged accounts (typically bonds and international equities).
5. Confirm how much you will pay in capital gains from the sale of your current holdings. Make sure you can afford it. If not, you'll have to old onto some funds until you can afford the tax bill.
6. Write all of this in a plan that you can email your advisor and the 3rd party firm so they can't mess it up.

2 weeks from now:
7. Tell your advisor you want to manage your investments yourself and ask to initiate the transition process in writing. Ask if there is a cheaper way to get your money out than the solution you are proposing. Don't burn bridges, if you have tax issues, etc.in the next year you may need their help.
8. Ask how to cancel your whole life policy and get the required information to do so.
9. Sell funds with no penalties to get cash and transfer the cash to your new brokerage.
10. Transfer funds with penalties to the new brokerage. Wait for the conditions that trigger a penalty to end.
11. Confirm the end your relationship with the advisor and 3rd party management firm in writing.
12. Reinvest your cash according to your chosen investment allocation as soon as possible.

As for the whole life policy, I've never had one so I don't know how to evaluate whether or not to keep it or cancel it. Here's a quick guide via the White Coat Investor (another Boglehead).
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/how-to-dum ... fe-policy/

Tamarind
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:38 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Tamarind » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:33 am

It is important that you give instructions to your FA and the money manager immediately to stop any trading activity on your accounts and to stop reinvesting dividends. You must revoke this permission now to stop the bleeding and give you time to think and decide what comes next.

It's also important that you not move the money before doing a little homework as you could cost yourself a bundle in taxes and fees if you don't think it through.

What you want to get next is a list of every tax lot in your accounts and the amount of unrealized gain or loss. Your money managers should be able to provide this. You will use this to figure out which holdings to sell quickly and whether you need to delay selling any of them for tax reasons.

It would help us advise you if we knew your federal income tax bracket, as that affects how much it might cost you to move your investments. If you don't know it, say so and we can help you figure it out.

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:51 am

Paul[/quote]


Well this is never good to hear.. but can't say I'm surprised at this point. This is the "plan" the 3rd Party money management firm (Brinker capital who was hired by my FA ) put in place on my behalf.[/quote]

Well, the good part is you are now going to get on the right track. We will be here to answer any questions you have.

Paul[/quote]


Thanks Paul!

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:52 am

Nate79 wrote:Search for one of the weekly how to get out of Edward Jones on here to figure out how to unwind this mess (I know you don't have an account at EJ but the reason and process is the same.)

I would not waste time with your advisor any more. He is a salesman. He is not a fiduciary. Figure out where you want to transfer this account to (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc). Call them up, tell them what you have and initiate a transfer. They will tell you what they can or can not hold and can or can not sell. You will need to look at the tax impact of selling any funds with a taxable gain.

Otherwise, shame on that salesman. Investing is not difficult. You could put your money in a target date fund and still come out ahead in fees and costs.


So The Account is already through Fidelity. So I am assuming it would be the smartest to keep it there? As they offer similar lost cost funds to vanguard

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:54 am

cherijoh wrote:
Nate79 wrote:Search for one of the weekly how to get out of Edward Jones on here to figure out how to unwind this mess (I know you don't have an account at EJ but the reason and process is the same.)

I would not waste time with your advisor any more. He is a salesman. He is not a fiduciary. Figure out where you want to transfer this account to (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc). Call them up, tell them what you have and initiate a transfer. They will tell you what they can or can not hold and can or can not sell. You will need to look at the tax impact of selling any funds with a taxable gain.

Otherwise, shame on that salesman. Investing is not difficult. You could put your money in a target date fund and still come out ahead in fees and costs.


One other thing to watch out for is that you might be charged to sell some of these funds if you bring them over "in kind". So you need to decide if it is better to sell there and bring over cash or transfer the fund and sell later. Look for whether or not the fund family is NTF (no transaction fee). This could vary from brokerage to brokerage.

It also might help to shop around - you can always buy the exchange traded fund (ETF) version of Vanguard's index funds at a third party brokerage (Schwab, TD Ameritrade, Fidelity, etc.) if they offer to give you a bonus or give you so many free trades for bringing your money over to them. Vanguard is rock bottom cheap on their own funds, but may not cut you the best deal on other company's funds.

If you decide to mitigate the tax hit and sell off this garbage gradually you should look at:
  • Do any funds have back end loads? Front-end loads are a sunk cost, but some share classes charge a back end load instead. (It usually declines over time). There may also be a short-term penalty imposed by the fund sponsor for selling within 60 or 90 days of purchase (to discourage frequent trading). In either case, it may be beneficial to wait to sell these funds.
  • How much capital gains are embedded in each fund? Any funds with the highest expense ratios but very little capital gains tax when you sell would be highest rank on the list to sell. Rank order all the funds and work your way down the list.
  • Look for stock market declines as selling opportunities to off load these dogs. This may be counterintuitive to the mantra of "buy low, sell high" but you minimize taxes and get the benefit of the recovery in the cheaper index funds that you immediately purchased with the sales proceeds.


Thanks for the info. I need to do some more research on each individual fund as far as the loads, Penalties, Captial Gains ETC..
The Account is already through Fidelity. It is just managed by a 3rd party money management firm and my advisor..

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:58 am

financeidiot wrote:A good order of next steps for the next 2 weeks would be:

This weekend/next week:
1. Choose your next brokerage. Picking one of Schwab, Fidelity, TD Ameritrade, or Vanguard would simplify the process. I now do all my investing through Vanguard, but if Schwab and Fidelity had the same low costs and transaction fees they do now, I might keep my money there for the better service and more intuitive web sites. I also love Schwab's high-yield checking account. Pick the one with the customer service and website you like the best. They all have similar funds, but if you really want Vanguard funds at a non-Vanguard brokerage, you can pay the $4.95 per trade fee at Schwab and Fidelity (many Vanguard ETFs trade free at TD Ameritrade too).
2. Research what you're paying for now. Review your agreement with your advisor and the 3rd party management firm. Research the prospectus of the funds you currently have and confirm you have no additional loads or transaction funds.
3. Pick a desired asset allocation. An easy way to do this is to pick your bond allocation then decide how much in international equities you're willing to accept up to 50% of your equity allocation. A target-date fund or grabbing a 3-fund portfolio and copy/pasting to your situation would be simplest.
4. Evaluate your tax situation and decide if you want one or a combination of a Traditional IRA, Roth IRA, or Solo 401k. Decide which investments to place in the tax advantaged accounts (typically bonds and international equities).
5. Confirm how much you will pay in capital gains from the sale of your current holdings. Make sure you can afford it. If not, you'll have to old onto some funds until you can afford the tax bill.
6. Write all of this in a plan that you can email your advisor and the 3rd party firm so they can't mess it up.

2 weeks from now:
7. Tell your advisor you want to manage your investments yourself and ask to initiate the transition process in writing. Ask if there is a cheaper way to get your money out than the solution you are proposing. Don't burn bridges, if you have tax issues, etc.in the next year you may need their help.
8. Ask how to cancel your whole life policy and get the required information to do so.
9. Sell funds with no penalties to get cash and transfer the cash to your new brokerage.
10. Transfer funds with penalties to the new brokerage. Wait for the conditions that trigger a penalty to end.
11. Confirm the end your relationship with the advisor and 3rd party management firm in writing.
12. Reinvest your cash according to your chosen investment allocation as soon as possible.

As for the whole life policy, I've never had one so I don't know how to evaluate whether or not to keep it or cancel it. Here's a quick guide via the White Coat Investor (another Boglehead).
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/how-to-dum ... fe-policy/



This is a great plan of action. I really appreciate it.
I need to do a bit more research on my individual funds and costs/time frame of selling them.. Which might take a bit as this side of things is all brand new to me now..
I mentioned it in another reply or two, but the account is already housed through fidelity. Do you think the best option is to keep it there?


I am waiting on some current info on my life insurance plan that will help decide to keep it or let it go ( or wait to let it go.. ETC)

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:13 am

Tamarind wrote:It is important that you give instructions to your FA and the money manager immediately to stop any trading activity on your accounts and to stop reinvesting dividends. You must revoke this permission now to stop the bleeding and give you time to think and decide what comes next.

It's also important that you not move the money before doing a little homework as you could cost yourself a bundle in taxes and fees if you don't think it through.

What you want to get next is a list of every tax lot in your accounts and the amount of unrealized gain or loss. Your money managers should be able to provide this. You will use this to figure out which holdings to sell quickly and whether you need to delay selling any of them for tax reasons.

It would help us advise you if we knew your federal income tax bracket, as that affects how much it might cost you to move your investments. If you don't know it, say so and we can help you figure it out.


Without looking. I think right on the fidelity page i can see all of the unrealized gains/ losses. But i don't yet quite understand that info vs holding/selling them for tax reasons.. This is all my first steps in doing things on my own..

25% Tax Bracket Single Filer

financeidiot
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby financeidiot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:48 am

Staying with Fidelity is a great option, you'll just have to move over to an individually managed brokerage account, which is easy to do. If you're already familiar with their website it makes the transition that much easier and Fidelity has plenty of great low-cost ETFs.

We're the same age (27) and same marginal tax bracket (I went through this process last summer and left an advisor managing my account through Fidelity). I did not look at capital gains at all and lucked into a $2,000 capital gains loss in the account when I ended the relationship before the market turned around in fall. However, if I had profits in the account, I would have paid 25% taxes on all my short-term capital gains (investments held less than 1 calendar year) and 15% taxes on all of my long-term capital gains (investments held greater than 1 year). Thus, my tax situation this year would have been ... unpleasant. Here's a more in-depth lesson on capital gains: http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/capita ... long-term/

The amount of effort and research you put into this process should be determined by how much you have in your taxable account and how much is short-term vs. long-term capital gains. If you only have $10,000 invested, it's probably not worth the effort to go through all the tax lots when you could just look at the fund-level short-term vs. long-term gains move on with your life. If you have $100,000 invested and a lot of capital gains, it's definitely worth it to get in the weeds at the tax lot level and keep as much as you can.

If you really want to cut your tax bill, you could keep the funds with the greatest gains and put all your future contributions into a Solo 401k and/or a Traditional IRA. Both of these accounts can also be self-managed at Fidelity. Since these contributions are not taxed until withdrawn, they would lower your taxable income (possibly to a lower marginal bracket) and allow you to switch out of the funds you have while paying less in taxes on gains.

However, keep in mind that you need to get your money out and you've probably invested a small amount so far compared to what you will in your lifetime. So even if you don't execute this transition perfectly, you'll still save far more in the long run by switching your investments. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Tamarind
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:38 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Tamarind » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Great. Since you are in 25% bracket you may need to think about taxes. It depends.

First add up all the unrealized losses. You can sell all of these lots. Next add as much unrealized gain as you have unrealized losses. You can sell all of these lots too.

Do you have more gains than losses? If so, does 15% of the gains less your losses seem like a daunting amount of tax to pay? Is there so much excess gain that it would push you into a higher bracket? If the answer to both questions is no, you can sell when the time is right without major consequences.

I also agree that you should be fine staying at Fidelity.

Of all the funds you have, the only one I would keep is FUSVX, the very good Fidelity S&P 500 index fund. If you have gains in this one you should probably keep it and just work around it with the rest of your asset allocation.

The other funds you might want to use for your asset allocation are FSEVX (the counterpart to FUSVX, it holds the stocks that aren't in the S&P), FSTVX (both of those together for the total US market), FSIVX (international stocks), and FSITX (bonds).

Take some time with us to figure out what a good asset allocation for you might be.

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:15 pm

Do yourself a favor and read a little guide on investing that has helped me. Paul has responded to your post and has written an excellent guide for free.

Access it at http://investingessentials.blogspot.com/

Good luck in your investing, and you are well on your way to success.

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:38 pm

financeidiot wrote:Staying with Fidelity is a great option, you'll just have to move over to an individually managed brokerage account, which is easy to do. If you're already familiar with their website it makes the transition that much easier and Fidelity has plenty of great low-cost ETFs.

We're the same age (27) and same marginal tax bracket (I went through this process last summer and left an advisor managing my account through Fidelity). I did not look at capital gains at all and lucked into a $2,000 capital gains loss in the account when I ended the relationship before the market turned around in fall. However, if I had profits in the account, I would have paid 25% taxes on all my short-term capital gains (investments held less than 1 calendar year) and 15% taxes on all of my long-term capital gains (investments held greater than 1 year). Thus, my tax situation this year would have been ... unpleasant. Here's a more in-depth lesson on capital gains: http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/capita ... long-term/

The amount of effort and research you put into this process should be determined by how much you have in your taxable account and how much is short-term vs. long-term capital gains. If you only have $10,000 invested, it's probably not worth the effort to go through all the tax lots when you could just look at the fund-level short-term vs. long-term gains move on with your life. If you have $100,000 invested and a lot of capital gains, it's definitely worth it to get in the weeds at the tax lot level and keep as much as you can.

If you really want to cut your tax bill, you could keep the funds with the greatest gains and put all your future contributions into a Solo 401k and/or a Traditional IRA. Both of these accounts can also be self-managed at Fidelity. Since these contributions are not taxed until withdrawn, they would lower your taxable income (possibly to a lower marginal bracket) and allow you to switch out of the funds you have while paying less in taxes on gains.

However, keep in mind that you need to get your money out and you've probably invested a small amount so far compared to what you will in your lifetime. So even if you don't execute this transition perfectly, you'll still save far more in the long run by switching your investments. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.


Great advice here, I need to go through and do all the capital gains calculations. I can see a brief break down on the Fidelity Positions page. But I Am not sure how to break this down on their site to short term vs long term.. If you have any experience or anyone does on this on the fidelity site. Insight would be great!
I will read through this link you posted to see if that helps. I understand the idea of capital gains and tax ETC. Just more or less need to figure out how to see all this info in relation to my account / trades ETC.

Thanks again for the helpful info

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:00 pm

Tamarind wrote:Great. Since you are in 25% bracket you may need to think about taxes. It depends.

First add up all the unrealized losses. You can sell all of these lots. Next add as much unrealized gain as you have unrealized losses. You can sell all of these lots too.

Do you have more gains than losses? If so, does 15% of the gains less your losses seem like a daunting amount of tax to pay? Is there so much excess gain that it would push you into a higher bracket? If the answer to both questions is no, you can sell when the time is right without major consequences.

I also agree that you should be fine staying at Fidelity.

Of all the funds you have, the only one I would keep is FUSVX, the very good Fidelity S&P 500 index fund. If you have gains in this one you should probably keep it and just work around it with the rest of your asset allocation.

The other funds you might want to use for your asset allocation are FSEVX (the counterpart to FUSVX, it holds the stocks that aren't in the S&P), FSTVX (both of those together for the total US market), FSIVX (international stocks), and FSITX (bonds).

Take some time with us to figure out what a good asset allocation for you might be.


Thanks Tamarind,
I think the answer is no to both questions so i should be alright.. Might have a bit of short term Capital gains though do to it being a managed account and stuff was moved around/ sold / bought. I need to figure out all of that still.
I ran a couple Sample portfolios on Portfolio visualizer with the funds you mentioned and it seems like an awesome place to start.
Thank you

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:00 pm

dwickenh wrote:Do yourself a favor and read a little guide on investing that has helped me. Paul has responded to your post and has written an excellent guide for free.

Access it at http://investingessentials.blogspot.com/

Good luck in your investing, and you are well on your way to success.

Dan


Thanks Dan!

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:10 pm

Hey guys,
Thank you all for your help and insight thus far I really appreciate it.

I have a question for those who use / have used portfolio visualizer.
Is there a way to calculate the fund fees / loads into your calculations? I see a drop down menu for Fees but no options in it..

When i calculate my current portfolio to a lazy fund portfolio in a very quick analysis on there i see very similar returns but i Think that is because the fees ( as well as the actively managed / constant buying & selling of funds) is not calculated for.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:20 pm

This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:49 am

dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:06 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:08 pm

dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan


Wow... it's just kind of insane .. why would anyone get into these funds.. I guess the answer is prob. They were sold into them. Or part of a package they didn't research enough Like me..

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:50 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan


Wow... it's just kind of insane .. why would anyone get into these funds.. I guess the answer is prob. They were sold into them. Or part of a package they didn't research enough Like me..


Don't feel bad, many including me have made the same mistake. Just learn from it and start earning the full return of the market vs sending someone else's kids to college on the commission.

Good luck to you and best wishes for a successful portfolio,

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:11 pm

dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan


Wow... it's just kind of insane .. why would anyone get into these funds.. I guess the answer is prob. They were sold into them. Or part of a package they didn't research enough Like me..


Don't feel bad, many including me have made the same mistake. Just learn from it and start earning the full return of the market vs sending someone else's kids to college on the commission.

Good luck to you and best wishes for a successful portfolio,

Dan


Thanks Dan.
Any other great info/ resources like that site. Feel free to share. I am trying to collect as much info as possible!

Cheers

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:34 am

Hey All,

Thanks again for the reply. I have been out of the country for a couple weeks and had to take a break from this, but am back at the research now..
Funny thing has it my "Advisor" sent out their compliance forms for the year. ( first time i have seen this.. ) and looks as if he / the company is an RIA.. but still has pushed me in a pre chosen formula with another 3rd party company ( as mentioned above) that has a bunch of funds with high fees ETC ( mentioned above as well).. How can one do this and be an RIA...

I also finally received all the info from my Whole life policy and am looking into that and its cost/ benefit. ETC and might have some more questions on that for you guys.

thanks all

Luke Duke
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am
Location: Texas

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Luke Duke » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan


Wow... it's just kind of insane .. why would anyone get into these funds.. I guess the answer is prob. They were sold into them. Or part of a package they didn't research enough Like me..


That website doesn't appear to take any kind of front end load into consideration, so add another 5.5% in fees to the managed funds.

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:32 pm

Luke Duke wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:
Mstrmcky wrote:
dwickenh wrote:This tool may give you a better representation of the difference that expenses make. I have used 2 of your funds with 100,000 investment over 20 years along with Vanguard total stock market fund. The difference in cost is staggering. Just hit the show results button.

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/1/fa.aspx

Dan


Dan what funds did you use? They didn't in the link


Sorry they did not link. I used ACSAX and DEVDX along with Vanguards VTSAX.

enter the three funds, and set for 100,000 investment for 20 years making 7% and hit the show results button- you will be amazed at the results.

Dan


Wow... it's just kind of insane .. why would anyone get into these funds.. I guess the answer is prob. They were sold into them. Or part of a package they didn't research enough Like me..


That website doesn't appear to take any kind of front end load into consideration, so add another 5.5% in fees to the managed funds.


It will if you input a fund with a load like ANCFX with a 5.75 load.

It will reflect the expense of the load along with the ER for the fund.

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Mstrmcky
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Mstrmcky » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:46 pm

Getting ready to have a / the conversation with my advisor this week.

Any last minute advice? The personal aspect of this has been the hardest part to accept. But you guys have laid out so much good info for me. That it's hard to see any positive in keeping this business relationship.

" my "Advisor" sent out their compliance forms for the year. ( first time i have seen this.. ) and looks as if he / the company is an RIA.. but still has pushed me in a pre chosen formula with another 3rd party company ( as mentioned above) that has a bunch of funds with high fees ETC ( mentioned above as well).. How can one do this and be an RIA...

I also finally received all the info from my Whole life policy and am looking into that and its cost/ benefit. ETC and might have some more questions on that for you guys.

thanks all"

Cheers. Guys.

MotoTrojan
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby MotoTrojan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:39 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:Getting ready to have a / the conversation with my advisor this week.

Any last minute advice? The personal aspect of this has been the hardest part to accept. But you guys have laid out so much good info for me. That it's hard to see any positive in keeping this business relationship.

" my "Advisor" sent out their compliance forms for the year. ( first time i have seen this.. ) and looks as if he / the company is an RIA.. but still has pushed me in a pre chosen formula with another 3rd party company ( as mentioned above) that has a bunch of funds with high fees ETC ( mentioned above as well).. How can one do this and be an RIA...

I also finally received all the info from my Whole life policy and am looking into that and its cost/ benefit. ETC and might have some more questions on that for you guys.

thanks all"

Cheers. Guys.


I couldn't look someone in the eye that did this to me. I'd have Fidelity handle the transfer and send a stern email explaining why I'm leaving. That AA is truly absurd.

dwickenh
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby dwickenh » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:20 pm

Mstrmcky wrote:Getting ready to have a / the conversation with my advisor this week.

Any last minute advice? The personal aspect of this has been the hardest part to accept. But you guys have laid out so much good info for me. That it's hard to see any positive in keeping this business relationship.

" my "Advisor" sent out their compliance forms for the year. ( first time i have seen this.. ) and looks as if he / the company is an RIA.. but still has pushed me in a pre chosen formula with another 3rd party company ( as mentioned above) that has a bunch of funds with high fees ETC ( mentioned above as well).. How can one do this and be an RIA...

I also finally received all the info from my Whole life policy and am looking into that and its cost/ benefit. ETC and might have some more questions on that for you guys.

thanks all"

Cheers. Guys.


Good luck Mstrmcky on your meeting. Remain committed to improving your returns by ending the relationship with this RIA.

Best to you in your future investing,

Dan
The market is the most efficient mechanism anywhere in the world for transferring wealth from impatient people to patient people.” | — Warren Buffett

Tamarind
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:38 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Tamarind » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:08 am

Be friendly but firm and clear about what you are going to do. I would avoid accusing the advisor of neglecting your best interest (even though they have). Instead I would frame the decision as having outgrown the need for their advice and reducing costs. They did get you started, after all. The fact that you paid more than was appropriate for those services is water under the bridge.

If the advisor calls on your long relationship you can just say that's it's been valuable to you and you'll be in touch. If they try to throw doubt on your ability to do it yourself, don't engage, just smile and say you'll see.

Nearly A Moose
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:28 pm

Re: 27yr curious about my investment personel and strategy

Postby Nearly A Moose » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:39 am

From personal experience, don't expect this to be a constructive, pleasant, or satisfying conversation.

One way to frame it might be to turn this into a request for a proposal: "I've decided I'd like to pursue a passive investing, index-based, low-cost, low-turnover, tax-efficient approach to investing. How would you propose that you would execute that approach for me?" Be clear you're not asking that any trades be executed at that point.

If he hems and haws, throws a bunch of mumbo jumbo at you, or tries to argue why you won't "beat the market" with your approach, you have a pretty clear answer and can follow up with an email later thanking him for his time and asking him to cease trading so you can effect a transfer. Or perhaps he will offer you a reasonable approach that he would execute (spoiler: he won't).


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