How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Topic Author
Trophy_Husband
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm
Location: Bossier City, LA

How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Trophy_Husband »

I am currently 49 and on track to retire early at 55. However, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile Boggle philosophies on maximizing tax efficiency while minimizing risk during the gap years from 55 to 59.5 when our retirement accounts become available.

For example;
- Our needs in retirement will be $90k. This will need to come entirely from our taxable accounts for the 5 years between 55 and 60.
- Overall allocation is 70% US Domestic, 25% Bonds, 5% International
- Per Bogle doctrine on Tax Efficiency, 100% of our Bond allocation is in our Tax Sheltered accounts (401k/Roth).
- Equities are split between our Tax Sheltered and Taxable Accounts
- 100% of our Taxable account is composed of tax efficient equities

During my gap years, I must cash out my Taxable accounts first since my Tax Deferred accounts are unavailable. After the $90k draw down, I plan to rebalance both my Taxable and Tax-Deferred accounts to maintain my preferred overall asset allocation.

However, to minimize risk, volatility and sequence of return issues during my 5 year gap period, I want to have my Taxable account filled with secure or low volatility instruments (Bonds). But doing so, is a complete reversal of Bogle philosophy on tax efficiency since interest on Bonds is taxed at normal rates vs CG rates if I were cashing out equities. In addition, it forces me to fill my valuable tax sheltered accounts with already tax efficient equities to maintain my overall allocation.

How do I resolve these conflicting philosophical demands during the gap years?
User avatar
avenger
Posts: 894
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by avenger »

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Placing ... ed_account

That link will answer your question.

Replace "emergency fund" or "buying a new house" examples with "money I want to spend in retirement."
cheers ... -Mark | "Our life is frittered away with detail. Simplify. Simplify." -Henry David Thoreau | [VTI, VXUS, VWITX, SV fund]
User avatar
Topic Author
Trophy_Husband
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm
Location: Bossier City, LA

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Trophy_Husband »

I understand how that wiki helps maintain overall portfolio allocation, but doing so doesn't reduce volatility or risk in the account I need to rely on during the gap years.

In the years prior to my retirement, I want to reduce volatility/sequence of return risk in the account (i.e. Taxable) to ensure I can consistently draw $90k/yr until the 401k kicks in. Reallocating after withdrawal won't reduce volatility in the Taxable account, only the overall portfolio and could lead to failure.

Example;
Taxable account
Age 54: $450k (100% equities).
Age 55: Withdraw $90k, RoR -5%. End of Year balance = $342k (100% equities)
Age 56: Withdraw $90k, RoR -4%. End of Year balance = $242k (100% equities)
Age 57: Withdraw $90k, RoR +5%. End of Year balance = $159k (100% equities)
Age 58: Withdraw $90k, RoR +2%. End of Year balance = $71k (100% equities)
Age 59: Plan Fails
BigJohn
Posts: 1946
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:27 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by BigJohn »

I was in a similar situation a few years ago as I prepared to retire. There is no perfect answer and some compromise between your competing objectives will be required. I decided that managing overall risk, especially sequence of return risk, was the far more important objective. As a result, I have both stocks and bonds in taxable. Right now I'm living off of dividends/interest and selling appreciated stock funds if/when needed. If there were a major market correction, I would not want to sell stocks so I'd begin selling bond funds as needed. I made sure I had enough bonds in taxable to cover at least 3 - 4 years of living expenses.

It may or may not be any solace but at current low bond yields the tax inefficiency is far smaller than it might have been 5 - 10 years ago :beer
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan" - Carl Von Clausewitz
User avatar
Svensk Anga
Posts: 799
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:16 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Svensk Anga »

As I see it, you do not have to worry about tax efficiency in the early retirement years. It looks like you will have taxable income only from your portfolio distributions. 2% (at today's bond fund rates) on the 450,000 needed is only $9k/year. Tax on that 9K is likely zero You just have risk on when to switch from equities to bonds in taxable. You probably want to do that in a fully retired year when your capital gains rate would be zero (assuming stable tax policy). It might take multiple years if you have a low basis and want to stay in the 15% bracket for 0% LTCG taxes.

You don't have to get to age 59.5 for penalty-free withdrawals, only to the tax year you will reach age 59.5.

You should check if your 401k will allow partial withdrawals. If you leave the employer with that 401k in the year you reach age 55 (or more), withdrawals are penalty free. You would be out of luck if you had rolled this to an IRA as then the age 59.5 rule applies.

Perhaps you should accumulate fixed income in taxable starting now with whatever new money plus dividends you collect. This would have a tax cost of the difference between your marginal tax rate and the qualified dividends rate, which is probably minor. You would give up some potential for capital gains on the equities in taxable though.

You probably want to withdraw enough from 401k/IRA in these gap years to cover your personal exemption and deductions at 0% tax rate. Might want to fill up the 10% bracket too, to minimize lifetime taxes by paying at a lower rate early and have lower withdrawals later when your rate may be higher. Whether those withdrawals go to a Roth IRA or to current spending probably depends on your estate planning needs. If you use some IRA money in the early retirement years, it can take a lot of pressure off the allocation decision.
avalpert
Posts: 6313
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by avalpert »

Look at the 'age 55 rule' - you may be able to use your 401k as well. You also say you have a Roth which means you have access to all your contributions too. A home equity line of credit or personal loan may even be cheaper than tax inefficient holdings to make up the balance.
randomguy
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by randomguy »

Trophy_Husband wrote:I am currently 49 and on track to retire early at 55. However, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile Boggle philosophies on maximizing tax efficiency while minimizing risk during the gap years from 55 to 59.5 when our retirement accounts become available.

For example;
- Our needs in retirement will be $90k. This will need to come entirely from our taxable accounts for the 5 years between 55 and 60.
- Overall allocation is 70% US Domestic, 25% Bonds, 5% International
- Per Bogle doctrine on Tax Efficiency, 100% of our Bond allocation is in our Tax Sheltered accounts (401k/Roth).
- Equities are split between our Tax Sheltered and Taxable Accounts
- 100% of our Taxable account is composed of tax efficient equities

During my gap years, I must cash out my Taxable accounts first since my Tax Deferred accounts are unavailable. After the $90k draw down, I plan to rebalance both my Taxable and Tax-Deferred accounts to maintain my preferred overall asset allocation.

However, to minimize risk, volatility and sequence of return issues during my 5 year gap period, I want to have my Taxable account filled with secure or low volatility instruments (Bonds). But doing so, is a complete reversal of Bogle philosophy on tax efficiency since interest on Bonds is taxed at normal rates vs CG rates if I were cashing out equities. In addition, it forces me to fill my valuable tax sheltered accounts with already tax efficient equities to maintain my overall allocation.

How do I resolve these conflicting philosophical demands during the gap years?
Two comments
a) Things like 72(t) let you get money out of the 529
b) Why do you want low volatility investments? Is it because you have barely enough money (i.e. a 30% loss would cause failure) or is it some mental block about selling stocks low in taxable and buying stocks low in the IRA?
User avatar
House Blend
Posts: 4811
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by House Blend »

Trophy_Husband wrote:I am currently 49 and on track to retire early at 55. However, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile Boggle philosophies on maximizing tax efficiency while minimizing risk during the gap years from 55 to 59.5 when our retirement accounts become available.
As mentioned earlier, you may not have any gap years: many 401(k) plans have penalty-free withdrawals if you retire in the year you turn 55 or later. And of course you can tap a Roth IRA without penalty up to the level of contributions at any age. More, if you meet the 5 year test.

So I don't see any dilemma here, unless the bulk of your tax advantaged assets are in trad IRAs (or 401(k)s from previous jobs), you are unwilling to set up a SEPP payout for your IRA, and your taxable account is too small to reliably support you for (say) 5 years.

For example, with 100% stock in taxable, and a 50% crash at the beginning (and no recovery), a sustainable withdrawal rate would be 10% of the before-crash balance per year.

On the other hand, with a ladder of CDs (or treasury bonds), you can sustain a withdrawal rate of 20%, even if you throw away all of the interest. (Some, but not all, will be needed to pay the extra income tax for this less efficient approach.)

So in an artificial scenario where I can only use the taxable account, I would go with CDs if I can't afford any volatility in taxable; stocks if I have a 2X cushion or more, and something in between otherwise.
User avatar
BolderBoy
Posts: 5364
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:16 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by BolderBoy »

Trophy_Husband wrote:- 100% of our Taxable account is composed of tax efficient equities

How do I resolve these conflicting philosophical demands during the gap years?
I had a gap-years issue when I retired with nearly 100% equities in taxable, so I asked for advice here as well. What I'd overlooked in all the competing "philosophical demands" was the simple advice that money needed to live on ought to be in fixed income of some sort. So I started selling equities (and accepting the capital gains hit) and buying intermediate term tax-exempt bond (while exchanging bonds for stocks in my retirement accounts).

I'd forgotten to figure in the monthly income stream from the bond fund so it has all worked out much better than I figured.

YMMV.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
User avatar
Topic Author
Trophy_Husband
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm
Location: Bossier City, LA

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Trophy_Husband »

Thanks all for the responses. They've been helpful.

I did contact the 401k company and, unfortunately, they do not offer the option to receive distributions before 59.5. The "Rule of 55" apparently won't work for me. This is actually surprising to me because it's an IRS rule, so how can the 401k company just flat out refuse to give me the money if the law allows it?

So from reading the responses it appears basically I can;

A) The Complicated Option: Equal distributions from my Roth IRA (SEPP). I understand the theory but the practical aspects of it terrify the snot out of me. Ammoritazation tables, life expectancy...oh yeah, a recipe for disaster. On top of that, we only have about $300k in our Roth IRAs so it wouldn't be enough to cover the 5 yrs.

B) Roth Conversion Ladder: We do not have a tIRA to convert from. Even if we did, I would need to contribute 90k/yr and then immediately convert it to our Roth. Well above the maximum allowed annual contribution.

C) The Low Risk/High Tax Option: Starting next year (age 50) start converting the taxable account stocks to CDs or Bonds. $90k per year until I have 5 years of living expenses in secure instruments. Of course this would be an additional 15%CG tax on top of the 33% Marginal tax I'm already paying. Something I'd like to avoid and/or minimize but at least I'm more likely to have the funds available to live the lifestyle I want when I hit 55.

D) The High Risk/Low Tax Option: Ride out the volatility of the equity market until I turn 55, retire and my income drops to $56k (Federal pension). At this point cash out the entire $450k and pay 0%CG (since income less than $73.5k = 0%CG). Pray there isn't a series of bad years for the equity market right before I cash out.

I may have oversimplified some of the suggestions but that's what I've gathered. Am I missing any?
Last edited by Trophy_Husband on Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
BigJohn
Posts: 1946
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:27 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by BigJohn »

Trophy_Husband wrote:This is actually surprising to me because it's an IRS rule, so how can the 401k company just flat out refuse to give me the money if the law allows it?
Did you tell them that you would be leaving the company at age 55? If not, then that's the issue as the age 55 rule only applies when you leave your employer. If so, then I'm a bit surprising as well.

I think you've got your options as well as the pros/cons pretty well stated. If you are interested in some reading material on the subject I'd suggest Bill Bernsteins "The Ages of Investors" https://www.amazon.com/Ages-Investor-Cr ... B008CM2T2A. One of the ages is the transition from accumulation to spending which he calls the middle game. He talks about the risks and suggests way to manage them. Much of my middle game as well as the early part of my end game are based on his approach.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan" - Carl Von Clausewitz
MAI
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:31 am

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by MAI »

Svensk Anga wrote: You don't have to get to age 59.5 for penalty-free withdrawals, only to the tax year you will reach age 59.5.
I don't believe this is correct. Everything I've read, including the IRS web site, simply refers to withdrawals before age 59 1/2, not withdrawals before the year you turn 59 1/2. Do you have a reference?
User avatar
Taylor Larimore
Advisory Board
Posts: 30296
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:09 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Taylor Larimore »

During my gap years, I must cash out my Taxable accounts first since my Tax Deferred accounts are unavailable. After the $90k draw down, I plan to rebalance both my Taxable and Tax-Deferred accounts to maintain my preferred overall asset allocation.

However, to minimize risk, volatility and sequence of return issues during my 5 year gap period, I want to have my Taxable account filled with secure or low volatility instruments (Bonds).
Trophy_Husband:

It appears that you are trying to keep the same stock/bond allocation in both your taxable and tax-deferred accounts. This is unnecessary. It is your overall portfolio that counts.

You are correct that you should normally withdraw stocks (with a high cost basis) from your taxable account first. Unless I am missing something, this is a good thing:

* Portfolio becomes more conservative as stocks are withdrawn.
* Less tax on withdrawals from taxable account.

Finally, maintain your desired asset-allocation by exchanging funds within your tax-advantaged account where there will be no tax consequences.

Keep investing simple.

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
User avatar
Topic Author
Trophy_Husband
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm
Location: Bossier City, LA

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Trophy_Husband »

Taylor Larimore wrote:
It appears that you are trying to keep the same stock/bond allocation in both your taxable and tax-deferred accounts. This is unnecessary. It is your overall portfolio that counts.
You misunderstood me. I want to maintain a 70S/25B/5I allocation across the entire portfolio. It just so happens that, at this time, my Taxable account is 100% Stocks. Once I turn 55 I will cash out $90k of my Taxable account which will have the affect of skewing my overall portfolio allocation more to Bonds. However, I then plan to rebalance my Tax advantage accounts (401k/Roth IRA) as necessary to get back to an overall 70S/25B/5I allocation across the entire portfolio.
Taylor Larimore wrote:
Finally, maintain your desired asset-allocation by exchanging funds within your tax-advantaged account where there will be no tax consequences.
That's the plan. :happy
User avatar
Taylor Larimore
Advisory Board
Posts: 30296
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:09 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Trophy_Husband wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:
It appears that you are trying to keep the same stock/bond allocation in both your taxable and tax-deferred accounts. This is unnecessary. It is your overall portfolio that counts.
You misunderstood me. I want to maintain a 70S/25B/5I allocation across the entire portfolio. It just so happens that, at this time, my Taxable account is 100% Stocks. Once I turn 55 I will cash out $90k of my Taxable account which will have the affect of skewing my overall portfolio allocation more to Bonds. However, I then plan to rebalance my Tax advantage accounts (401k/Roth IRA) as necessary to get back to an overall 70S/25B/5I allocation across the entire portfolio.
Taylor Larimore wrote:
Finally, maintain your desired asset-allocation by exchanging funds within your tax-advantaged account where there will be no tax consequences.
That's the plan. :happy
Trophy_Husband:

It appears we agree. What's the problem?

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
pkcrafter
Posts: 14663
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by pkcrafter »

TH, how much non-equity do you think you can stuff in the taxable account in the next 5 years? I agree, 100% stock for such a short time is very risky. What will be your estimated withdrawal rate at 55 and at 59-1/2?

Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
dolphintraveler
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:31 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by dolphintraveler »

Although complicated the 72(t) / SEPP may be worth it. Also you can roll your 401k -> IRA then do it with that, instead of touching the Roth IRA's. I'd still first check about the 401k if you're no longer with the employer at 55 as simplicity is preferred. We have the same questions, but are further away from 55 than you, and are still investigating. I found this article interesting, but have not done the math myself:
http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-acces ... nds-early/

[EDIT] Actually, I think I understand the question better. You balance the overall portfolio. So in one sense it does not matter whether equities are up or down, as you said you will balance your overall portfolio after a sell. Of course it does matter if you run out of taxable funds in those 5 years. One option is to consider additional funds in the next few years into a more stable funds (munis, CD's, cash, whatever) instead of increasing taxable equities. That way at least part of your portfolio will be guaranteed. Of course you could use 72t as a backup should the sequence of returns be unfavorable.
Slacker
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 8:40 am

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Slacker »

If I understand correctly, rebalancing issues aside you were concerned about your funds in the taxable account becoming depleted before you can get to the 401K funds?

Why not take a distribution of the principal from the Roth at that time if needed (I am assuming your statement of $300K in Roth was not purely hypothetical)? There are no taxes/penalties to get a distribution of principal from the Roth as others have stated.

so your scenario:
Example;
Taxable account
Age 54: $450k (100% equities).
Age 55: Withdraw $90k, RoR -5%. End of Year balance = $342k (100% equities)
Age 56: Withdraw $90k, RoR -4%. End of Year balance = $242k (100% equities)
Age 57: Withdraw $90k, RoR +5%. End of Year balance = $159k (100% equities)
Age 58: Withdraw $90k, RoR +2%. End of Year balance = $71k (100% equities)
Age 59: Plan Fails <========= Supplement with Roth principal.
randomguy
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by randomguy »

Trophy_Husband wrote: D) The High Risk/Low Tax Option: Ride out the volatility of the equity market until I turn 55, retire and my income drops to $56k (Federal pension). At this point cash out the entire $450k and pay 0%CG (since income less than $73.5k = 0%CG). Pray there isn't a series of bad years for the equity market right before I cash out.

I may have oversimplified some of the suggestions but that's what I've gathered. Am I missing any?
Your understanding of the tax code is wrong. The first 40k or so will be 0% LTGC. The next 150k or so will be 15%,the next 200k will be 18.4% and the rest will be at 24%.
livesoft
Posts: 75123
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by livesoft »

I am early retired and younger than 59.5. I have 100% equities in my taxable account.

I think the worry about risk is way way way overstated. Sure, equities could drop, but so what? If they drop, both your taxable and tax-advantaged accounts will drop in value.

With a $90K withdrawal from a taxable account annually, you should not have to pay any income taxes at all because a lot of the $90K will be tax-free return-of-capital and tax-free long-term capital gains. You can probably even do some Roth conversions like I do.

But if stocks tank and you decide you need to withdraw some tax-advantaged assets before age 59.5, then so what? Roth contributions can be withdrawn with no penalties nor taxes. If you withdraw from a traditional IRA, then you would only pay a 10% penalty which is probably lower than the tax rate you have now. Think hard about how small that penalty would be and consider that you probably won't have to pay income taxes on the withdrawal anyways because of tax-loss harvesting.

Also note that one's equities have a better chance of going up than going down.

Bottom line: Stop worrying and just keep 100% equities in your taxable account like I do.

PS: i see you mentioned a pension, so you need to calculate your taxes with a tax program carefully and do some "What if?" scenarios.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
Topic Author
Trophy_Husband
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm
Location: Bossier City, LA

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by Trophy_Husband »

Many thanks for the inputs. I think I get it.

My plan after reading the many posts is to just leave the money in the taxable account at 100% stock. If I suffer a bad market in the years before/during the gap years, I'll continue to drain the Taxable account down to $0 and then withdraw from the Roth IRA account (contributions only to avoid penalty) until I hit 59.5 and have access to all of my retirement accounts.
randomguy wrote:
Your understanding of the tax code is wrong. The first 40k or so will be 0% LTGC. The next 150k or so will be 15%,the next 200k will be 18.4% and the rest will be at 24%.
This is the one thing that has confused me. During the gap years, our (MFJ) only income is my pension at $56k. That places us in 15% tax bracket. Everything I've read says MFJ couples in the 15% tax bracket pay 0% on any Capital Gains. If that's the case, what difference does it make how much stock I cash out from my Taxable account? Whether it's a $100 or $5M my Capital Gains tax should be $0 as long as my "earned" (i.e. pension) keeps me in the 15% tax bracket. Am I missing something?
livesoft
Posts: 75123
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by livesoft »

You are missing that the capital gains you will get will be included in your income, so your income will not be just your pension amount. Your income will include dividends paid by your taxable account holdings, too. Plus the capital gains you realize. So if you have $5M in capital gains, you will pay lots and lots of taxes.

It is best to learn to fill out your tax returns yourself, so that you can see how this all works.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
randomguy
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: How to balance Tax Efficiency and Risk when Retiring Early

Post by randomguy »

Trophy_Husband wrote:Many thanks for the inputs. I think I get it.

My plan after reading the many posts is to just leave the money in the taxable account at 100% stock. If I suffer a bad market in the years before/during the gap years, I'll continue to drain the Taxable account down to $0 and then withdraw from the Roth IRA account (contributions only to avoid penalty) until I hit 59.5 and have access to all of my retirement accounts.
randomguy wrote:
Your understanding of the tax code is wrong. The first 40k or so will be 0% LTGC. The next 150k or so will be 15%,the next 200k will be 18.4% and the rest will be at 24%.
This is the one thing that has confused me. During the gap years, our (MFJ) only income is my pension at $56k. That places us in 15% tax bracket. Everything I've read says MFJ couples in the 15% tax bracket pay 0% on any Capital Gains. If that's the case, what difference does it make how much stock I cash out from my Taxable account? Whether it's a $100 or $5M my Capital Gains tax should be $0 as long as my "earned" (i.e. pension) keeps me in the 15% tax bracket. Am I missing something?
As livesoft says, LTGC count for income when determing what marginal rate you end up in. The tax rate just comes from a different table. You might want to play with Taxcaster or other tool to see what happens when you add income from various sources.
Post Reply