cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

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Topic Author
crit
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cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

Spouse left a job in 2008, and the 401k got rolled over to an IRA at M Corp.
He has moved several times since, but we've been at our current address for 4 years now.

We have been trying to transfer that IRA to Vanguard since last winter. He initiated it through Vanguard. Vanguard eventually reported that M Corp was the problem. M Corp is keeping us in a holding pattern. They have repeatedly requested a fax, copy, send an image of Spouse's driver's license and a utility bill, so it seems to be something about the address. Vanguard has our correct address, and M Corp does not(? I think). But they keep saying they can't read the driver's license, no matter how high-res we copy it (the first fax was, as you'd imagine, blurry but still clearly his DL; subsequent copies have been as clear as possible, which cannot be not crystal clear really, but again, this is what they request).

They have had the funds, ~$40k, in a money market, and of course keep taking fees from it. Its value has diminished by 5% since 2008, while the S&P500 has, uh, increased since then. We really need to get this money out of their hands, but feel stuck, where they request something, we send it that day, wait several weeks, call AGAIN, get told to send something, wait weeks, etc., etc. At some point I'll expect that the transfer request has "expired", or somesuch, and more delay-of-game where they keep our money.

What is the escalation step we should take? Send a notarized copy of DL? Send a letter from lawyer demanding release of funds?

Help, we're super frustrated.
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Perhaps take a hi res photo of the DL, print it and snail mail it.

Does "M" have brick and mortar locations? If so, go in with DL and get written acknowledgement of acceptable submission of info requested.
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niceguy7376
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by niceguy7376 »

Is the IRA at the M Corp or the 401k custodian of that M Corp?
Sidney
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Sidney »

I would be inclined to send them a certified letter requesting that they expedite the transfer or you will report them to the Department of Labor.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
JW-Retired
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by JW-Retired »

Moves like this are much easier if the name & other ID info on the account is exactly the same for both new and old accounts. If the name is slightly different and that's the problem, then you might open the Vanguard account under the same name and change it after the move.

Have you kept up on address changes? Have you sent hard copies of the required information, faxes are sometimes poor. If you are not getting annual statements what's the ID info on the last one you got?

Who is "M Corp"?
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crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

The IRA is at M Corp. No brick-and-morter locations, unfortunately.
We have, at some point, taken a high-res image and snail-mailed it; we've been through several rounds of this.

The last statements went to an old address. We understand that address/names is a potential problem, but it really seems that they are not acting in good faith to solve it. It's been 8ish months, and several rounds.

Is there a specific statute or law would we cite from the Dept of Labor? I'm googling, but searches are dominated by news about the new fiduciary standard.

Thanks for input, much appreciated.

M Corp is Millennium Trust Co.
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David Jay
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by David Jay »

In this day and age, I would contact someone like the COO (from their website) and let them know that this is unacceptable behavior and that if they cant' get their act together, you are going to launch an all-out social media blitz informing the world that Millennium Trust is not to be trusted with people's money.

That is way more influential than threatening to go to the DOL (or other government regulator).
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mhalley
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by mhalley »

This certainly seems to be outrageous on the part of the Corp. Have you updated your information with them so they have the correct address etc? Do they not have a website so you can ensure everything is correct?
While it is not usually recommended, maybe you could do an indirect rollover? Do you have enough cash laying around to pay the taxes for this? (20%) If not, it might even be worthwhile to take a short term loan to get this done.http://www.finra.org/investors/401k-rollovers

Contact the plans fiduciaries, and perhaps the dol. from the dol website: https://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/wyskapr.html
What is the role of the Labor Department?
The U.S. Department of Labor’s Employee Benefits Security Administration (EBSA) is the agency responsible for enforcing the provisions of ERISA that govern the conduct of plan fiduciaries, the investment and protection of plan assets, the reporting and disclosure of plan information, and participants’ benefit rights and responsibilities.
However, not all retirement plans are covered by ERISA. For example, Federal, state, or local government plans and some church plans are not covered.
The Department of Labor enforces the law by informally resolving benefit disputes, conducting investigations, and seeking correction of violations of the law, including bringing lawsuits when necessary.
The Department has benefits advisors committed to providing individual assistance to participants and beneficiaries. Participants will receive information on their rights and responsibilities under the law and help in obtaining benefits to which they are entitled.
Contact a benefits advisor electronically at askebsa.dol.gov or by calling toll free 1-866-444-3272.
Action Items
Contact the Department of Labor’s EBSA for questions about ERISA, help in obtaining a benefit, or:
If you believe your claim to benefits has been unjustly denied or that your benefit was calculated incorrectly;
If you have information that plan assets are being mismanaged or misused;
If you think the plan fiduciaries are acting improperly; or
If you think your employer has been late in depositing your contributions (see Chapter 7).

I would imagine keeping your money for 8 mos would come under one of the above.
Last edited by mhalley on Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Topic Author
crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

I guess another option would be to have them send a check and pray that we get it; but they also withhold 20%, which would just delay a mess. In that case, do they send it to IRS, then it comes back as a refund?

We could cover the 20% in cash. But if something does get messed up, we're in a high bracket this year :( (sorry for the edit-adding)
mhalley
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by mhalley »

Yes, they withhold 20% and you get a refund next year when you file your taxes.
kaneohe
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by kaneohe »

crit wrote:I guess another option would be to have them send a check and pray that we get it; but they also withhold 20%, which would just delay a mess. In that case, do they send it to IRS, then it comes back as a refund?

We could cover the 20% in cash. But if something does get messed up, we're in a high bracket this year :( (sorry for the edit-adding)
Distributions from IRAs do not require withholding if you request it. https://www.wolterskluwerfs.com/article ... lding.aspx
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prudent
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by prudent »

I wonder if the CFPB would intercede on your behalf. I've seen a couple threads where people had very quick resolution to problems once they contacted the CFPB. I just don't know if they have jurisdiction in this situation (IRA custodian).
GreenGrowTheDollars
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by GreenGrowTheDollars »

Given their apparent lack of understanding of quotation marks, I'm already dubious.

"Millennium Trust Company is a leading financial services company offering niche "alternative" custody solutions. We serve as a complement to "traditional" services offered by other custodians. Our innovative solutions include alternative asset custody, rollover solutions, private fund custody and advisor services."

FINRA handles complaints related to account transfers, including retirement plans. I'd file one with them. It gets attention. http://www.finra.org/investors/investor ... int-center
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CABob
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by CABob »

I see that Millennium is under the regulations of the State of Illinois. I wonder if contacting the IL Dept. of Financial Regulation might be fruitful? https://www.idfpr.com/
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Watty
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Watty »

Have your contacted the HR department at the old company? Politely letting them know about the problem and that you are willing to do whatever it takes but that if this is not resolved you will be getting a lawyer involved could get them to call the company that administers the plan.

The next time they ask you to fax something, try to send a copy by certified mail with a return receipt requested instead.
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crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

Thanks for the resources, all. According to wikipedia's entry on CFPB, the SEC is the agency that regulates IRAs. But FINRA and the state of IL also look like good avenues.

Millennium looks and feels shady, and while Yelp reviews must be taken with a big grain of salt, there are a lot of complaints about trying to get money transferred out.

I'll update. I hope.
Engineer250
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Engineer250 »

I'll be a bit of a contrarian.

It sounds like you contacted Vanguard and tried to get them to accomplish the transfer. Now that you have the letter from Vanguard with your account number, it's really your responsibility to contact M Corp and get them to perform the transfer. Call them up, tell them where you want the direct transfer to go to. Sometimes they will initiate this over the phone and mail the check to you or to Vanguard directly without any paperwork. Sometimes you will need to fill out paperwork. Check should be written to Vanguard FBO: You. They should not at all care that the address they have doesn't match what Vanguard has, only thing that matters is the check correctly written to Vanguard with your name on it and being mailed either directly to you or to Vanguard.

Call M Corp. Tell them you want to do a direct transfer. Ask them what that will take. Either they will get the info from you on the phone and do it or send you paperwork. M Corp doesn't need to know what address Vanguard has. If your address with M Corp is incorrect, that's a separate thing you need to fix unrelated to the direct transfer. Don't expect Vanguard to do the legwork on this, you need to.
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pkcrafter
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by pkcrafter »

Can you please clarify this: You say this is an IRA, so why is it in the hands of a corporation? Did you select MCorp for your IRA?

If they are suspect of your valid ID, send the required information via mail, not Email or fax. Make sure all docs are readable so they cannot use that as an excuse.

Paul
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RobertB
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by RobertB »

Here is what I would do: Get together high-res PDFs of all the documentation they have ever requested. Then call them (do it early in the day because this could be a marathon) with the goal of having the transfer approved that day. Keep in mind that that, even at reputable companies, customer-service organizations are mostly bullshit machines that are designed to make customers leave the business alone. For each person you talk to, you need to be extremely clear about what you are looking for (to have the outgoing transfer approved immediately) and that you are willing to cooperate in any way needed to make that happen. Also state (politely) that you believe that their delaying tactics are fraudulent and possibly illegal and that if they cannot satisfy you on this call, you will contact a lawyer about legal remedies and about referring the matter to the appropriate regulatory and criminal authorities.

The key thing here is to remember that you are mad at the company, and the people you are talking to are just regular folks with a crappy job. This is not to say they deserve any particular consideration from you, but rather that you should be looking for ways to get them on your side rather than venting about how mad you are. Basically you should have a carrot-and-stick approach: if the person is helpful, you will be polite to them and responsive to any requests. Thank them generously for helping you if they actually help you. Ultimately if they are helpful enough you will go away and leave them alone and they can get on with their lives. If they can't figure out how to help you, you are just going to stay on the call being a pain in the ass. If they actively try to stonewall you, then you make it clear that you aren't going away and you can let negative emotions show in a non-abusive way. It's unpleasant to be on the phone with someone who is clearly angry, but as long as you are respectful of the person you are talking to, don't use profanity, don't yell, it's hard for them to do anything other than feel bad about it.

If someone tells you they cannot do what you want, make them tell you exactly why (is there a policy against it, do they need someone else to sign off on the transfer, etc.). If it appears that the person you are talking to cannot help you, ask them who has the authority to grant your request and ask to be transferred to that person. If they say no one does, ask them to transfer you to their supervisor.

Get the name and direct contact info of every person you talk to. Before getting transferred, ask for the name and direct contact info of the person or group you are being transferred to. If you get someone's voice mail, go back one step up the chain and make them put you in touch with someone. The only acceptable follow-up is a commitment for a specified person to call you within a specified time frame. Any follow-up that does not have a specific person who has committed to respond within a specified time is worthless. If it's a person you haven't spoken to, the time frame should be within the next 2 or 3 hours. If you have spoken with a person and they are working on something, then use your judgment, but certainly no longer than 24 hours. If they need documents, you can provide them over email and have them approved while you are on the phone. If they say they can't do that, ask if they have an email account, ask them who does, etc. Just power through every bit of bullshit until you get a concession or get transferred up the chain.
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by CFM300 »

I would tackle this in two steps.

First, I'd forget the transfer and just get your address updated with M Corp. It's hardly their fault if they're sending you documents and you're not receiving them because you haven't updated your address. Once your address is updated, I'd press hard for the transfer.

One technique I've used to get the attention of unresponsive companies is to blanket email them. Find every email address related to that company and put it in the "To:" field. Typically, someone with power becomes irritated that they're being bothered because someone else at the company is not doing his/her job.

You can pick up a half dozen emails off of their website (IA@, alternatives@, etc.) and here's the email address of their CEO: ganetsberger@mtrustcompany.com

Judging by the name scheme, you could email lots of others in management as well:

http://www.mtrustcompany.com/about/management

Have fun.
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crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

Yes, it's the "getting address updated" part with M Corp that is the problem here. Nothing we do seems to satisfy them, repeatedly, repeatedly, calling, faxing, sending, emailing, etc.

Engineer, we have been directly and repeatedly dealing with M Corp on this issue. We haven't talked to Vanguard since the outset of the problem.

PCrafter, this was a 401k that got rolled by default into an IRA, at M Corp (trustee, not employer), when Spouse left employment in 2008. I believe that Spouse did not indicate what to do with his 401k at that time, so as it says on M Corp's rollover homepage: "A retirement account from your former employer has been automatically rolled over into a self-directed Individual Retirement Account (IRA) at Millennium Trust on your behalf." This happened before I was involved.

Our strong suspicion is that M Corp is playing delay-of-game with the "oh, hey, we have a different address on file, send us more proof" again and again so they can refuse to moving ahead to the transfer part.
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Rainmaker41 »

CFM300 wrote:I would tackle this in two steps.

First, I'd forget the transfer and just get your address updated with M Corp. It's hardly their fault if they're sending you documents and you're not receiving them because you haven't updated your address. Once your address is updated, I'd press hard for the transfer.

One technique I've used to get the attention of unresponsive companies is to blanket email them. Find every email address related to that company and put it in the "To:" field. Typically, someone with power becomes irritated that they're being bothered because someone else at the company is not doing his/her job.

You can pick up a half dozen emails off of their website (IA@, alternatives@, etc.) and here's the email address of their CEO: ganetsberger@mtrustcompany.com

Judging by the name scheme, you could email lots of others in management as well:

http://www.mtrustcompany.com/about/management

Have fun.
This should get their attention.
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celia
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by celia »

Here's a shot in the dark:

Possibly their spelling of your name, SSN, or address has a typo in it. If so, they SHOULD be reluctant to release the money or tell you what the "problem" is. So I would start by calling them up. Let them know that you aren't requesting any information from them at this time, but just verifying that they have your current contact information correct. Tell them how you spell your name and ask if that matches their record. Same for SSN and address. (I know this sounds fishy, like someone getting ready to access someone else's account so don't be surprised if they don't co-operate.)

Background:
A previous poster told about a problem when Vanguard froze his online account without any warning. They wouldn't tell him what the problem was or when it could be resolved. (He was originally worried about not being able to do online trades.) I believe the problem was that his account was accidentally combined with another account where the owners had the same name and their policy wouldn't allow any phone employees from discussing it with him until they cleaned it up. During the discussion, some posters theorized that possibly some money was fraudulently removed, but that wasn't the case, in the thread.
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goingup
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by goingup »

crit-
Your situation sounds terribly frustrating, and I don't want to blame the victim (you) here, but you've got to focus your fiery attention on the problem and not let go! Document all correspondence and get names and titles of those you speak to. Send snail mail certified. Demand answers and don't let things drag on again for 8 months.

A custodian to custodian transfer should probably take 2 weeks, and I'd say worst case 6 weeks. As some one suggested clear up your address problem with MCorp first and worry about the transfer to Vanguard once that is completed.

Personally I wouldn't pursue this with outside agencies until I had truly exhausted all internal avenues and had complete documentation of the efforts. Good luck!
jfave33
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by jfave33 »

Just as an alternative - try transferring to Fidelity. I have found Vanguard to be less than adequate with transfers but fidelity seem to go out of their way to make it happen. You can always move it to Vanguard later and probably can find a sign up bonus from fidelity.
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njboater74
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by njboater74 »

crit wrote:Yes, it's the "getting address updated" part with M Corp that is the problem here. Nothing we do seems to satisfy them, repeatedly, repeatedly, calling, faxing, sending, emailing, etc.
What is their objection to the documentation that you've sent them? Is it just that the image is illegible? Or are there other issues?

Ask them what methods have been successful in the past for sharing documents, and specifically what was illegible about the document? How are you scanning the ID? Are you using a scanner or a photocopier? Ask them which they'd prefer, and which is more likely to be accepted. Perhaps you can get a duplicate license and mail the actual license to them. Maybe scan and print using a scanner and a high resolution printer.

I agree, it sounds like they're stalling. Get them to be very explicit about what they *will* accept in writing, and reference this when you send them the exact thing that they claimed they would accept.
When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world - 'No, YOU move'--Captain America, Boglehead
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celia
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by celia »

Another thing to look for is an "inside" contact person who will run interference for you. When you talk to someone who seems knowledgeable, ask for their contact info and if they'd be willing to check on things for you when you call back. If you can't find anyone like this, ask to speak to a "supervisor" and ask if they will be your contact person for future inquiries.

I know it is very frustrating to state the problem over each time. I've had to do that sometimes 3 or 4 times in the same phone call until I get transferred to the "right" person in charge of the procedure I need. Maybe it would help if you state the problem and what you want done to someone who is unfamiliar with this situation. Then ask them what you want done. Can they understand what you want? I know a few people who will call up regarding a problem then not get the response they want since they are requesting the "wrong" thing. You also must know the difference between TRANSFER, ROLL-OVER, WITHDRAW, and DISTRIBUTE so that you request the correct one.
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by pkcrafter »

Transferring a 401k to an IRA without specific instructions sounds very odd to begin with. You got a notice that it was moved. Why didn't you get a notice before they moved it? '

Info on 401k removal

http://www.401khelpcenter.com/401k_educ ... 41RnzUYHIU

Paul
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crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

Today's update: "The check is in the mail"
(I laughed out loud). M Corp says they have mailed a check to Vanguard. So we'll see.

Pkcrafter, I realize this sounds fuzzy; I'm recounting what I was told about something that happened 8 years ago, to my spouse whose financial strategy was to stuff in under the mattress and forget about it. We got married in 2015, I took over the finances, and he said "oh yeah, I have this account that I'm not sure what it is or where it is" (to be fair: I was similar at the time) and ... here we are! According to Spouse, he "never did anything" about his 401k when he left the employer in 2008, and he eventually remembered that he got notified much later that it had been moved (rolled over) to M Corp. I'd have to assume that because it was well over $5k, he consented somehow somewhere (?) but who knows, that much is history.

The part that really gets me is that it was in cash since 2008.
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crit
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by crit »

Update 2: THE MONEY IS THERE (at Vanguard)!
Just checked in now, and it was there. Still in shock, really. Phew, finally!

Many thanks for all of your suggestions.
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goingup
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by goingup »

crit wrote:Update 2: THE MONEY IS THERE (at Vanguard)!
Just checked in now, and it was there. Still in shock, really. Phew, finally!

Many thanks for all of your suggestions.
Yay! You finally won the wrestling match! :beer
Engineer250
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Engineer250 »

crit wrote:Update 2: THE MONEY IS THERE (at Vanguard)!
Just checked in now, and it was there. Still in shock, really. Phew, finally!

Many thanks for all of your suggestions.
Congratulations! Glad that hurdle is over!
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Kevin M
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by Kevin M »

Congrats crit, and good on you for being persistent. I was watching this thread with interest, since I've done many IRA transfers, but have never had a significant problem.

Kevin
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celia
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Re: cannot wrestle IRA from custodian. Help?

Post by celia »

crit wrote:. . . and he said "oh yeah, I have this account that I'm not sure what it is or where it is" (to be fair: I was similar at the time) and ... here we are! According to Spouse, he "never did anything" about his 401k when he left the employer in 2008, and he eventually remembered that he got notified much later that it had been moved (rolled over) to M Corp. I'd have to assume that because it was well over $5k, he consented somehow somewhere (?) but who knows, that much is history.
May I suggest that you both look for Unclaimed Property at your state's Controller/Treasurer web site. Also look at California's, since it is the default state if the payer doesn't know where to send the money:
http://sco.ca.gov/upd.html
The part that really gets me is that it was in cash since 2008.
Be glad it was in cash. If it had been in stocks, he might have panicked, sold at the bottom, and left it there.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
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