Schwab vs Vanguard

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ogd
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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by ogd » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:23 pm

ps56k wrote:
ogd wrote:Schwab is nice and cheap, but only on Vanguard will you find the Admiral index funds free, which are nicer to use than ETFs.

Was just browsing and reading these threads -

What do you mean -- Admiral index funds free - ?

I meant without trading fees, not counting the ERs which are the same as the ETFs. As far as I know very few VG competitors have VG Admiral shares of any kind, let alone the full stable.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by onourway » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:07 pm

confusedinvestor wrote:Schwab has lower ER ETFs vs Vanguard

Schwab is today's Vanguard

Vanguard will die soon or may be already in coma


I think you are indeed confused. Costs are important when we are talking 60, 80, or 100bp vs. 5. When it's 5 vs. 3bp, cost becomes fairly irrelevant.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:12 pm

confusedinvestor wrote:LadyGeek,

Given this wiki is 6 year old and not updated, this will mis-lead new folks like myself. Please help review this ?

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... index_etfs

Schwab ETFs are much cheaper vs Vanguard.

Bogleheads needs to open up beyond Jack Bogle and Vanguard and test latest market leaders ...I have no affiliation with Schwab as I'm a AT&T Enginner, and only understand 0 or 1, not ETFs vs Mutual Funds...

LadyGeek wrote:
The wiki has a list: Investment management company ("See also")

Sure, I took a crack at it: Charles Schwab

Like you, I'm an engineer but work in the analog world. I understand 0.000 and 1.000. :)

Can someone familiar with Schwab give this a good look? Comments / questions / corrections are welcome. Wiki editors should edit the page directly.

===============
To explain further, the content of the wiki depends on the interest and experience of its editors. I don't invest with Schwab, so I don't look at those pages in depth. Upon request, certainly.

Members who want to see updated info regarding the other Investment management companies are welcome to become editors and update those pages yourself. You can become an editor by posting in Join the Wiki!, or see the instructions at the bottom of the wiki home page.
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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:56 pm

ogd wrote:
ps56k wrote:
ogd wrote:Schwab is nice and cheap, but only on Vanguard will you find the Admiral index funds free, which are nicer to use than ETFs.

Was just browsing and reading these threads -

What do you mean -- Admiral index funds free - ?

I meant without trading fees, not counting the ERs which are the same as the ETFs. As far as I know very few VG competitors have VG Admiral shares of any kind, let alone the full stable.

+1
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ps56k
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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by ps56k » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:43 am

here's a PDF of the Schwab vs Vanguard vs Fidelity - ER fees comparison chart

https://www.schwabfunds.com/public/file/P-10043741

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by frankmorris » Sun May 14, 2017 10:32 am

Hi all - new to the forum and looks like this is the most recently relevant thread on this topic. A few questions based on what people have posted:

- Are Vanguard ETFs portable? Meaning, you bought at Schwab but wanted to move to Vanguard, could you move your ETF over? Let's say, for example, that at some point the Admiral shares version becomes highly appealing and you want to move into that. Could you simply port over your Vanguard ETF from CS to Vanguard, then "buy up" or transfer into Admiral?

- On that topic, what are the current advantages of Admiral shares? Many seem to have the same ER as investor shares. Unless that changes, is there any reason to go Admiral?

- Does anyone have any current opinions on how the Schwab funds are tax managed? I do love how the dual fund structure at Vanguard makes capital gains distributions less likely.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by student » Sun May 14, 2017 10:46 am

frankmorris wrote:Hi all - new to the forum and looks like this is the most recently relevant thread on this topic. A few questions based on what people have posted:

- Are Vanguard ETFs portable? Meaning, you bought at Schwab but wanted to move to Vanguard, could you move your ETF over? Let's say, for example, that at some point the Admiral shares version becomes highly appealing and you want to move into that. Could you simply port over your Vanguard ETF from CS to Vanguard, then "buy up" or transfer into Admiral?


You can move ETF but transferring from ETF to Admiral is a taxable event if you have gains. On the other hand, you can convert Admiral to ETF without triggering it. Please see this for details. https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/faqs?lang=en

frankmorris wrote:- On that topic, what are the current advantages of Admiral shares? Many seem to have the same ER as investor shares. Unless that changes, is there any reason to go Admiral?


The same link above gives useful info.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by frankmorris » Sun May 14, 2017 10:55 am

student wrote:
frankmorris wrote:Hi all - new to the forum and looks like this is the most recently relevant thread on this topic. A few questions based on what people have posted:

- Are Vanguard ETFs portable? Meaning, you bought at Schwab but wanted to move to Vanguard, could you move your ETF over? Let's say, for example, that at some point the Admiral shares version becomes highly appealing and you want to move into that. Could you simply port over your Vanguard ETF from CS to Vanguard, then "buy up" or transfer into Admiral?


You can move ETF but transferring from ETF to Admiral is a taxable event if you have gains. On the other hand, you can convert Admiral to ETF without triggering it. Please see this for details. https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/faqs?lang=en

frankmorris wrote:- On that topic, what are the current advantages of Admiral shares? Many seem to have the same ER as investor shares. Unless that changes, is there any reason to go Admiral?


The same link above gives useful info.


Thanks - I think I was confused and thought Admiral Shares were a different ETF class. Apparently not.

Read through all the FAQs but didn't see any other advantages of Admiral shares than the lower ratios. If they're the same as the ETF ERs, looks like a wash.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by frankmorris » Sun May 14, 2017 10:56 am

And another follow-up - if I already own a VG ETF through CS, and I want to buy more shares (or sell some), is that considered a "trade" and trigger a fee, or is it only if I buy a new ETF?

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by student » Sun May 14, 2017 12:20 pm

frankmorris wrote:And another follow-up - if I already own a VG ETF through CS, and I want to buy more shares (or sell some), is that considered a "trade" and trigger a fee, or is it only if I buy a new ETF?


Buying or selling ETF requires a commission. At Charles Schwab, it is $4.95. However, there are a number of ETF that are exempted from this. See http://etfdb.com/type/commission-free/charles-schwab/

student
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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by student » Sun May 14, 2017 12:23 pm

frankmorris wrote:
student wrote:
frankmorris wrote:Hi all - new to the forum and looks like this is the most recently relevant thread on this topic. A few questions based on what people have posted:

- Are Vanguard ETFs portable? Meaning, you bought at Schwab but wanted to move to Vanguard, could you move your ETF over? Let's say, for example, that at some point the Admiral shares version becomes highly appealing and you want to move into that. Could you simply port over your Vanguard ETF from CS to Vanguard, then "buy up" or transfer into Admiral?


You can move ETF but transferring from ETF to Admiral is a taxable event if you have gains. On the other hand, you can convert Admiral to ETF without triggering it. Please see this for details. https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/faqs?lang=en

frankmorris wrote:- On that topic, what are the current advantages of Admiral shares? Many seem to have the same ER as investor shares. Unless that changes, is there any reason to go Admiral?


The same link above gives useful info.


Thanks - I think I was confused and thought Admiral Shares were a different ETF class. Apparently not.

Read through all the FAQs but didn't see any other advantages of Admiral shares than the lower ratios. If they're the same as the ETF ERs, looks like a wash.


Admiral shares represent a different class of mutual fund. ETF is different. I believe that the expense ratio for ETF is in general the same as the corresponding admiral shares.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by mongstradamus » Sun May 14, 2017 12:39 pm

Thanks - I think I was confused and thought Admiral Shares were a different ETF class. Apparently not.

Read through all the FAQs but didn't see any other advantages of Admiral shares than the lower ratios. If they're the same as the ETF ERs, looks like a wash.






Main difference that I can tell between VG etfs and admiral shares funds are ETF you can trade during the day when the market is open, Mutual funds you cannot.Also ETF you have buy in dollar amount of whatever the share price is, in other words you can't buy partial shares. Mutual funds are easier in the fact that you can just buy whatever dollar amount you want.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by frankmorris » Sun May 14, 2017 1:58 pm

student wrote:
frankmorris wrote:And another follow-up - if I already own a VG ETF through CS, and I want to buy more shares (or sell some), is that considered a "trade" and trigger a fee, or is it only if I buy a new ETF?


Buying or selling ETF requires a commission. At Charles Schwab, it is $4.95. However, there are a number of ETF that are exempted from this. See http://etfdb.com/type/commission-free/charles-schwab/


Right, but does that include buying additional shares of a fund you already own? Guessing so, just confirming.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by B'Falls_JT » Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm

We invest with both Schwab and Vanguard. In our experience, Schwab provides better and more timely customer service, whereas Vanguard provides a better set of funds / ETFs.

JT

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by student » Sun May 14, 2017 3:59 pm

frankmorris wrote:
student wrote:
frankmorris wrote:And another follow-up - if I already own a VG ETF through CS, and I want to buy more shares (or sell some), is that considered a "trade" and trigger a fee, or is it only if I buy a new ETF?


Buying or selling ETF requires a commission. At Charles Schwab, it is $4.95. However, there are a number of ETF that are exempted from this. See http://etfdb.com/type/commission-free/charles-schwab/


Right, but does that include buying additional shares of a fund you already own? Guessing so, just confirming.


Yes. It does.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by Malinois000 » Sun May 14, 2017 8:12 pm

I'm a Private Client of Schwab and just opened a Vanguard Roth IRA for my wife. A little early for me to have an opinion but I really do like Schwab. However, I have a large number of individual stocks as i like Dividend investing for my Schwab account.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by G-Force » Sun May 14, 2017 8:55 pm

Malinois000 wrote:I'm a Private Client of Schwab and just opened a Vanguard Roth IRA for my wife. A little early for me to have an opinion but I really do like Schwab. However, I have a large number of individual stocks as i like Dividend investing for my Schwab account.

What are the requirements to become a Schwab private client? What benefits do you get at this level?

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by frankmorris » Mon May 15, 2017 8:24 am

Thanks everyone

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by jnet2000 » Mon May 15, 2017 6:53 pm

Schwab has the best customer service. Used to be a private client. But moved all our assets to Vanguard a number of years ago. We are VPAS clients so I have not had any issues with customer service their. I recommend Schwab to all my family members since they have a b&M offices, low minimums and great funds, but my wife and I plan to stay with Vanguard for the long run. We do keep 10% of our assets at T.Rowe though.
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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by travelogue » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Chiming in. We have accounts and Vanguard and now Schwab. Moved to Schwab for better checking than Wells Fargo and have started to invest in no-fee ETFs in the associated brokerage account. All has been pretty great, including a welcome phone call from a real human, nice checks and checkbook covers sent free, attractive debit cards with ATM fee reimbursement feature and no feel worldwide, and reasonable (and free) bill-pay options.

Vanguard is a wonderful company with class-leading investments, but Schwab is more friendly for banking, iOS apps, customer service, branch offices, and small investment options through ETFs with low share per-share prices, no fees/load, and very competitive ERs. (Take a look at their new Schwab 1000 Index ETF, for example, with ER of just 5 basis points!)

I’d put Fidelity in as another fine option for brokerage and ETF investments, though their banking isn’t as seamless as Schwab (it’s not run by Fidelity directly).

On a related note, we use Capital One 360 for other banking needs (online checking, savings, kids accounts, and money market—we were ported over from ING Direct). Ally Bank would be similar and would be my other recommendation for utility accounts that are quick to set up and easy to manage online.

I think it’s horses for courses, and if what Vanguard offers fits your needs, they’re wonderful and you won’t go wrong with selecting from their quality financial products. (I really like their Wellesley Fund for an all-weather long term investment fund.) However, the Vanguard website is bit more old school and utilitarian, they don’t really offer a checking option, and many of their funds require a $3,000+ initial investment. I will happily keep my wife’s IRA account with VFIAX there for many years to come.

While we owe Mr. Bogle and Vanguard an enormous debt of gratitude for bringing low cost, high quality, index investing to individual investors, we are able to reap the benefits of competition today with other institutions that build on Vanguard’s success.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:30 pm

B'Falls_JT wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm
We invest with both Schwab and Vanguard. In our experience, Schwab provides better and more timely customer service, whereas Vanguard provides a better set of funds / ETFs.

JT
+1
Agreed.
Also for us, Vanguard trades are $2 for non vanguard funds.
Shared experiences to benefit all -- not an exspurt -- per forum guidelines :) Golf score allocation 50/50 swings vs putts.

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Re: Schwab vs Vanguard

Post by irishnick23 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:19 pm

My Roth IRA is at Vanguard. I'm from Pennsylvania. Bogle has done more for the average person than almost anybody else has in the post-war era. I want to like Vanguard more. I want to love it more.

BUT.

My wife recently left her job, and it came time to open an IRA for her and roll over her old 401k. We went to Vanguard for this and everything went downhill from there. We opened her account, followed all the steps, and everything seemed all set. We called customer service asking for instructions on how to carry out the rollover - one rep told us to have Fidelity mail Vanguard the check directly as we would take a tax hit if the check went to us first, while another told us to have Fidelity send the check to us and then we would forward it on to Vanguard, and that Vanguard did not take checks directly from other providers (you'll find out why we called twice in a second). This confusing, and what I now know to be incorrect information was the first red flag ever thrown at me in my time with Vanguard.

Then, once we tried to log in a day after confirming the account was open, we found that she was locked out and had to answer two security questions. She answered them (correctly), and was still locked out, being told Vanguard could not verify her identity and she needed to call customer service. We did this, spoke with 3 different reps, and none of them could tell us how to fix it. At this point, we were tired of the back and forth and decided to cut our losses open a rollover IRA using her Charles Schwab account that we had just taken over management of from my father-in-law (he had opened a taxable account when she was 15 and had been trading some stocks with it). Boy were my eyes opened.

1. Charles Schwab's online interface just LOOKS better. Functionality aside, I feel more comfortable working with an interface that doesn't look like it was last updated for Windows XP.

2. Charles Schwab has a 24/7 online chat function that can walk you through everything. Not sure how to set up automatic investing? Fire up the chat and they will send you links. Want to know the fastest way to get money to your account? A 24/7 customer service rep will present all your options to you. (Side note: we had a few different conversations with an online rep about my wife's IRA, and after each time when the issues had been resolved they asked us what our investment plans were. We always said a lazy 3 fund portfolio and were told that was a great idea. One time as a test, we told them we were going to use a few of CS high er active funds, and the rep told us that we should look into passive index funds to save some money and most likely have a better return. Wow!)

3. Instead of placing my wife's rollover check in the mail (it had been mailed to us by this point on the advice of CS), I was able to take it to our local branch and the representative at the front desk was able to deposit the check right there for immediate use in the account.

4. Schwab's index funds are as cheap as Vanguard's. Considering the superior web design, more fully staffed customer service, and b&m locations you would expect Schwab to have higher fees than Vanguard. And hey, maybe Schwab's business plan will one day change and they will stop trying to undercut Vanguard and raise their fees again. If that happens, we can always roll my wife's money back over to Vanguard, and deal with the lesser customer service experience. But until then, it seems prudent for us to take advantage of all that Schwab has to offer.

I've been so impressed by Schwab that I'm considering rolling my own IRA over to them in the new year. Our experience with Vanguard was frustrating, but it definitely wasn't enough to put me off of Vanguard all together. However, my experience so far with Schwab has been so good that it has convinced me that right now Schwab is the better of the two companies (I have only ever used NetBenefits and not the full Fidelity brokerage platform, so I can't speak to their product).

Just my two cents. Again, Vanguard has a noble business model, an admirable founder, and is the grand daddy of cheap, index investing. But for heaven's sake, how hard can it be to find a few user experience folks who are willing to take a pay cut to work for a company with a noble mission???

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