Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

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stratton
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Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by stratton » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:41 pm

Tried to do the upgrade today and it, "We'll use information from your account..." and the wrong money market fund popped up. I use a tax free money market fund and the silly thing mentions "prime" money market fund. What else is broken that isn't showing?.

(CANCEL)

Do not upgrade unless you check everything!

I tried calling, but customer service is closed. Understandable for Dec 26, but I need to set up a bank xfer and if it's going to require the new type of account then I'm stalled until someone fixes the problem. I'm not risking screwing up the account until I talk to someone. Or at least waiting to calendar year 2016 because of some kind of tax confusion.

Paul
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by HueyLD » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:53 pm

OMG. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully Vanguard fixes the mistake soon.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by cfs » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:00 pm

Settlement Fund for Brokerage Account

Prime Money Market is the settlement fund for the brokerage accounts (even if you have a zero balance that fund will show up). Have you verified that the other money market is GONE and that the balance is now showing up on the Prime Money Market? "Even if you are sure, check again."

Thank you.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by stratton » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:05 pm

cfs wrote:Settlement Fund for Brokerage Account

Prime Money Market is the settlement fund for the brokerage accounts (even if you have a zero balance that fund will show up). Have you verified that the other money market is GONE and that the balance is now showing up on the Prime Money Market? "Even if you are sure, check again."
I Canceled out so I didn't get that far.

Vanguard needs to better explain what happens.

I'm not messing with this until Jan 1, 2016 or later because I don't want any 2015 tax complications.

Paul
...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by cfs » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:23 pm

Concur.

Good point by Paul. IF you have NOT upgraded, then wait until after January 1st 2016.

And then keep your fingers crossed !!!
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HueyLD
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by HueyLD » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:30 pm

Does anyone have to upgrade to brokerage account? Sounds like a downgrade to me.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by stratton » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:40 pm

HueyLD wrote:Does anyone have to upgrade to brokerage account? Sounds like a downgrade to me.
I get why they are making the changes. Getting rid of a three day settlement period is great new "feature" considering they're catching up with Fidelity of ten years ago.

Two more problems:

1. I have distributions from funds moved to the tax free mmf. The upgrade process only says moved to a mmf. Which bleeping one (?) since they've introduced the prime mmf into the process.

2. Nags on login to set up a bank transfer. The account upgrade process needs to be done first...

Vanguard appears to have never tested the user interface of the account upgrade process. It's a total disaster. They have the information, but aren't bothering to impart it to their customers.

Paul

ps spelling corrections
Last edited by stratton on Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by scotthal » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:32 pm

My experience - Vanguard sent the 'invite' 12/15, I clicked ... just in time ... didn't realize that my money market : settlement acct would be classified as 'paid to another Vanguard mutual fund' during the subsequent 24hrs. The bulk of my FY15 capital gains & dividends got reinvested in the originating funds, rather than cashing out.

My bad - should've been sufficiently paranoid to intuit the abysmal timing, & assume a user trap.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by cfs » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:42 pm

Wow!

I hope someone at Vanguard is following all these "Broken Upgrade" conversations !!!

Thank you.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by beardsworth » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:59 pm

cfs wrote:Prime Money Market is the settlement fund for the brokerage accounts
Yes, for now, but at some time in 2016 Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund will become the sole settlement fund for brokerage. Scroll down to the brokerage changes heading in this link.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... et-reform/

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by nisiprius » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:58 am

I wish Vanguard would be clearer and less mysterious about what the whole upgrade amounts to.

I still don't understand whether or not the "upgrade" will have feature parity with features I have available to me now, such as automatic exchange based on percentages instead of dollar numbers. I still don't understand what governs whether or not you can do it, or why it hasn't been offered to me!
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by jimkinny » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:12 am

I upgraded last week. No problems.

I like the clarity and simplicity. I had brokerage accounts in roth, tira and taxable as well as MF in all three.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by midareff » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:36 am

stratton wrote:
HueyLD wrote:Does anyone have to upgrade to brokerage account? Sounds like a downgrade to me.
I get why they are making the changes. Getting rid of a three settlement period is great new "feature" considering they're catching up with Fidelity of ten years ago.

Two more problems:

1. I have distributions from funds moved to the tax free mmf. The upgrade process only says moved to a mmf. Which bleeping one (?) since they've introduced the prime mmf into the process.

2. Nags on loin to set up a bank transfer. The account upgrade process needs to be done first...

Vanguard appears to have never tested the user interface of the account upgrade process. It's a total disaster. They have the information, but aren't bothering to impart it to their customers.

Paul

I have not changed (upgraded?) yet since I got conflicting info from VG Flagship reps vs. the VG pdf. brochure dated October 2015. As I understand it now, with concurrence from the VG reps after full investigation, the accounts will default to reinvest upon change over so if you take dividends to your bank or to a VG MM that will have to be reset. I have been assured that FIFO and Spec ID reset as they are.

While the brochure implies the three day wait on ETF settlement is gone my rep has advised after checking settlement is reduced by one day, not the three implied. They are kicking the brochure up the chain for a needed correction. Had the changeover allowed an ETF to be exchanged for a fund I would be more interested in the change than I am, and may simply let things sit as they are and let the more venturesome folk debug the process.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by HueyLD » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:48 am

Here are the rules with VBS. http://www.vanguard.com/pdf/faqbroch.pdf

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by dbr » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:41 am

It might not be a bad thought that when a person changes to a different investment platform, all the defaults and options should be reviewed and explicitly reset. One or two of them may not apply anymore and one should never assume selections will carry over.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by cfs » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:23 am

beardsworth wrote:
cfs wrote:Prime Money Market is the settlement fund for the brokerage accounts
Yes, for now, but at some time in 2016 Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund will become the sole settlement fund for brokerage. Scroll down to the brokerage changes heading in this link.

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... et-reform/
Thanks for the link to the article, good information for ALL investing in Vanguard [with or without the upgrade].

Have a productive 2016.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by stratton » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:22 pm

Well something at Vanguard noticed. I received an email noting I had canceled out of the account update process and a number to call. I will ignore any links and phone numbers in the email and login and use the phone number there.

I'm not the trusting type on stuff like this. :twisted:

Paul
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TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by celia » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:23 pm

There are TWO different "upgrades" planned as I see it. They are merging mutual fund accounts and brokerage accounts. They are also changing the settlement fund account for brokerage accounts to the Federal Money Market Fund. I learned about the first change on bogleheads last October. For the second, I received notices in the mail a few weeks ago.

THESE CHANGES SCARE ME! It's not the changes themselves but all the opportunities for things to go wrong:

1. I access about 20 accounts (different account numbers) through my login due to having power of attorney for multiple people, who also have access to making changes (and "upgrades") to their accounts. Most are individual accounts, but some are held jointly. If I were to change my individual accounts, I suspect everything would be "upgraded" leaving me with multiple messes. If one of the other parties does the "upgrade", does that impact any of my accounts? (Of course not, but I'll believe it when I see it! <sarcasm>)

2. Typically the account history disappears after the assets are "moved" to a new account. How much did I pay for fund "x" 20 years ago? What was the basis when I inherited "y" 10 years ago? Do to past experience with Vanguard and other brokerages, the old / "closed" accounts only hang around for a year or so, then it is difficult to get that information, if at all.

3. We have transfer access set up between our bank accounts and various funds. If the accounts holding those funds get new account numbers, I hear we have to generate the paperwork again to set up access to those funds with the new account numbers and this requires a notary stamp. In California, there is now a state-mandated fee of $10 for each notary stamp, whereas our bank used to do it for free (due to being long-time customers). 20*$10 = $200. If I were to set up links to the new account numbers for Prime MM, do I have to do it again (with more notary paperwork) when the Federal MM becomes the default settlement account for the new brokerage accounts?

I HATE PAYING TO FIX UP THINGS FOR CHANGES I DON'T REALLY WANT / NEED.

Vanguard, How about creating one form where I can re-set all of these links from my checking to all the accounts that have the same SSN so I only need one notary stamp per SSN?

This looks like I will have to back up all accounts thoroughly after the year closes and keep an eye on all the new accounts for 2016. :annoyed
Does anyone have a way to make it easy to capture the history of the accounts?

Can anyone confirm one way or another if an existing mutual fund account and brokerage fund account that are linked together have everything end up in the existing brokerage account? Or do both of them go into a new account number?
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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by stratton » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:01 pm

celia wrote:1. I access about 20 accounts (different account numbers) through my login due to having power of attorney for multiple people, who also have access to making changes (and "upgrades") to their accounts. Most are individual accounts, but some are held jointly. If I were to change my individual accounts, I suspect everything would be "upgraded" leaving me with multiple messes. If one of the other parties does the "upgrade", does that impact any of my accounts? (Of course not, but I'll believe it when I see it! <sarcasm>)
1. I suggest you read the linked pdf mentioned by HueyLD. It answered quite a few of my questions.

2. Wait until calendar/tax year 2016. No point in risking your 2015 tax/regulatory issues when you can have all of 2016 to fix complications.

3. Download backup copies of details or print out statements.

4. Write up all your questions/concerns.

4a. Suggested question: Can Vanguard do a "rollback" if they screw up?

5. Call Vanguard and get hold of their compliance department so you can talk lawyer to lawyer or submit your questions by email to an actual person in that department.

6. confirm by contacting various state authorities if necessary.

7. repeat steps 5 and 6 until satisfied.

8. Do upgrade.

Paul
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by Kevin M » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:22 pm

Upgraded 3 ira accounts. Each one ended up with a second prime mm fund. So now one in mutual fund section, and one in stocks section as sweep account.

Kevin
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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:30 pm

celia wrote:
This looks like I will have to back up all accounts thoroughly after the year closes and keep an eye on all the new accounts for 2016. :annoyed
Your not doing that already? :shock: Keeping your own set of records has been standard operating procedure for many millennia.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by knpstr » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:33 pm

Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund will be the only money market fund you can use to settle brokerage trades later in 2016. Vanguard Brokerage selected this fund for retail accounts because it's open to all investors and won't have fees and gates. Also, after considering factors such as yield, fees, investment objectives, risks, and current market conditions, Vanguard Brokerage believes it's the most appropriate alternative to current money market settlement funds.
I have (always have had) prime mmf
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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by jhfenton » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:13 pm

celia wrote:In California, there is now a state-mandated fee of $10 for each notary stamp, whereas our bank used to do it for free (due to being long-time customers). 20*$10 = $200.
It's off topic, but I find that remarkable. In Ohio, we have a statutory maximum notary fee of $2.00 per acknowledgement or $1.50 per affidavit. But no one charges that if you're doing any other business with them.

If you come through Cincinnati, I'll notarize them for free. :beer

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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by quantAndHold » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:10 pm

jhfenton wrote:
celia wrote:In California, there is now a state-mandated fee of $10 for each notary stamp, whereas our bank used to do it for free (due to being long-time customers). 20*$10 = $200.
It's off topic, but I find that remarkable. In Ohio, we have a statutory maximum notary fee of $2.00 per acknowledgement or $1.50 per affidavit. But no one charges that if you're doing any other business with them.

If you come through Cincinnati, I'll notarize them for free. :beer
I find that remarkable too, since I can't find anything about mandatory notary fees in California anywhere online. All I find is that the maximum notary fee in California is $10 per signature.

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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:19 pm

quantAndHold wrote: I find that remarkable too, since I can't find anything about mandatory notary fees in California anywhere online. All I find is that the maximum notary fee in California is $10 per signature.
notary.cdn.sos.ca.gov/forms/notary-handbook-2015.pdf
Fees
Government Code section 8211 specifies the maximum fees that may be charged for notary
public services. However, a notary public may decide to charge no fee or an amount that is less
than the maximum amount prescribed by law. The charging of a fee and the amount of the fee
charged is at the discretion of the notary public or the notary public’s employer, provided it does
not exceed the maximum fees.
'Course I can't find the 2016 edition, so you never know.

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Re: TWO Kinds of Vanguard Account Upgrades

Post by celia » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:37 pm

I don't see the notary fees as being off-topic as that is part of my cost for doing Vanguard's upgrades.
Epsilon Delta wrote:Fees
Government Code section 8211 specifies the maximum fees that may be charged for notary
public services. However, a notary public may decide to charge no fee or an amount that is less
than the maximum amount prescribed by law. The charging of a fee and the amount of the fee
charged is at the discretion of the notary public or the notary public’s employer, provided it does
not exceed the maximum fees.
A private employer may do this for free for its members, but I don't see why my bank would do it as they said they have to pay the $10 to the state for each stamp. I'll look around at our credit unions and other places I can think of who might offer this as a benefit.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by AAA » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm

Here's my experience doing the account structure change.

Apparently, Vanguard is rolling this out by invitation. An email was received with a deadline date in early January for the conversion. The problem is that four of us use the same email address and the email was not addressed to a particular person. So we each logged in until the user was greeted with a message about the conversion - that's how we found out for whom the email was intended. I mentioned this to a Vanguard rep. After all, emails about transaction notices are explicitly addressed to individuals so why couldn't this one be? He didn't have a good answer. He also indicated that the conversion was voluntary, which is not the impression I got from the previous messages.

Anyhow, we had check writing for the Prime MM settlement fund when it was outside of the brokerage account. We found out that we had to re-establish check writing for the same fund after it was moved into brokerage. And that's done by paper and snail mail. I don't understand why they couldn't just carry this option over with the fund after it was moved.

In the end, it makes little difference to me whether my mutual funds are inside or outside the brokerage account. Not sure what the big deal is.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by stlutz » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:03 pm

We have transfer access set up between our bank accounts and various funds. If the accounts holding those funds get new account numbers, I hear we have to generate the paperwork again to set up access to those funds with the new account numbers and this requires a notary stamp.
Who is requiring notarization for this? Are the accounts not registered the same?

Everyone should keep in mind that doing the "upgrade" is not required. If Vanguard hasn't prompted you to encourage an upgrade, they they are saying they aren't ready for you to do it yet and that you should only do so if you really want to.

Brokerage being the new default setup is not the same as brokerage being a new requirement. If one doesn't want to switch, why do it?

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by celia » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:29 pm

AAA wrote:Anyhow, we had check writing for the Prime MM settlement fund when it was outside of the brokerage account. We found out that we had to re-establish check writing for the same fund after it was moved into brokerage. And that's done by paper and snail mail. I don't understand why they couldn't just carry this option over with the fund after it was moved.
Because the routing numbers on your checks will now be different (ie, a different account number). Don't forget to destroy the checks from the old account, so you don't use them accidentally.

AAA, As a coincidence with your name, I just found that the Auto Club (AAA) offers $0, $4, and $7 notary services, depending on the level of membership you have. Unfortunately, we're the $7 group (classic memberships).
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by celia » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:46 pm

stlutz wrote:
We have transfer access set up between our bank accounts and various funds. If the accounts holding those funds get new account numbers, I hear we have to generate the paperwork again to set up access to those funds with the new account numbers and this requires a notary stamp.
Who is requiring notarization for this? Are the accounts not registered the same?
If you want to link a jointly-held checking account, for example, with an individual Vanguard account, Vanguard's Bank Transfer Service Form must be filled out and notarized for EACH Vanguard account you want to link the checking account to.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by AAA » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:04 pm

celia wrote:
AAA wrote:Anyhow, we had check writing for the Prime MM settlement fund when it was outside of the brokerage account. We found out that we had to re-establish check writing for the same fund after it was moved into brokerage. And that's done by paper and snail mail. I don't understand why they couldn't just carry this option over with the fund after it was moved.
Because the routing numbers on your checks will now be different (ie, a different account number). Don't forget to destroy the checks from the old account, so you don't use them accidentally.
Okay, then why not just automatically send out new checks when the fund is moved into the brokerage account if one already has check writing for the fund and if one indicates they want to carry this option over? Why have to print out, sign and mail a form?

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by Makaveli » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:40 pm

Attempted to deposit my after tax 401k contributions into my rIRA today via mobile check deposit and it did not allow me. So much for the upgrade. Rep said he hopes theyll have that smoothed out in less than a year. A year.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by crefwatch » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:37 pm

midareff wrote:While the brochure implies the three day wait on ETF settlement is gone my rep has advised after checking settlement is reduced by one day, not the three implied. They are kicking the brochure up the chain for a needed correction. Had the changeover allowed an ETF to be exchanged for a fund I would be more interested in the change than I am, and may simply let things sit as they are and let the more venturesome folk debug the process.
I only see that the brochure claims a great benefit for less delay in exchanging Vanguard open-end mutual funds for other Vanguard open-end mutual funds. Three-day ETF settlement is a factor of the New York Stock exchange, over which Vanguard has no power. Selling an ETF is like selling any other listed stock.

In fact, I was surprised to learn that Vanguard would make me wait three days to spend the proceeds of a mutual fund redemption. That sounds like it's entirely for their protection, and not at all a regulatory-affair.

Perhaps the post has some reference to Vanguard's offer to exchange shares of one of THEIR open-end mutual funds for the corresponding ETF (where one exists), or the reverse. But that doesn't take three days, because I've done it.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by sperry8 » Thu May 26, 2016 2:23 pm

I upgraded yesterday. Everything transferred properly with one exception. I had all accounts set to sweep and specifically not to reinvest. However one fund (VFIDX: Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares) reinvested upon upgrade rather than being swept into Fed Money Market (the new sweep acct).

I have spoken to VG Flagship CS about this and they are working to see what can be done. Amazing they couldn't assist on the phone immediately but rather need to call me back after researching :confused

In any event will be interesting to see if they fix their error or dump it on me.

EDIT - they called me back within 10 minutes and are going to reverse the incorrect re-investment within 5 business days :happy
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by AAA » Thu May 26, 2016 2:43 pm

There's some truth to the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Having done some programming for instrumentation and always being concerned about unintended consequences of any changes made, I can't imagine having the responsibility to implement the changes Vanguard is undertaking when billions of dollars and millions of people can be affected.

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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by sperry8 » Thu May 26, 2016 5:42 pm

AAA wrote:There's some truth to the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Having done some programming for instrumentation and always being concerned about unintended consequences of any changes made, I can't imagine having the responsibility to implement the changes Vanguard is undertaking when billions of dollars and millions of people can be affected.
Agreed. And I waited quite some time to upgrade because I wanted to give them time to "fix" their problems. Seems they still have some bugs for those considering upgrading.

One new benefit I do like is the fact that I can now buy a new position/fund without having to sell an old one and wait for proceeds to clear. I can actually buy it, see exactly how much money is required to do so and only then sell another position to fund it.
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Re: Vanguard Account Upgrade BROKEN; wrong MMF

Post by Kenster1 » Thu May 26, 2016 5:52 pm

AAA wrote:There's some truth to the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Having done some programming for instrumentation and always being concerned about unintended consequences of any changes made, I can't imagine having the responsibility to implement the changes Vanguard is undertaking when billions of dollars and millions of people can be affected.
I think VG really had to do the upgrade to consolidate the platform. Remember in the past that PERSHING was handling the brokerage side of the business for Vanguard and so the business was quite disjointed.

Vanguard took over the Brokerage platform and are trying to integrate things but it takes time and is a big overhaul - again, I think they had to do it.

It ain't broke? Users have complained for years and years that you would get a Tax Form for the Brokerage Side of Vanguard and then another Tax form for the Vanguard Mutual Fund side. The same with the IRA's --- you could have 4 separate accounts: Brokerage taxable + Vanguard MF taxable and Brokerage Roth IRA + Vanguard Roth IRA.

Now if you're a user who has just a Vanguard MF in taxable and only Vanguard MF in Roth IRA - then sure everything may have seemed more seamless as you're just using that portion of the business.

But you gotta look at the broader picture of the MF and Brokerage business as whole which was very disjointed. What they will end up doing is having a more unified platform similar to Schwab and Fidelity who do not split accounts between internal MFs and brokerage assets.

Again - there will be growing pains but I think they really had to unify the platform and will be better off in the long haul.
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