Quick question on tax-advantaged space

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Triple digit golfer
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Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:49 am

I understand and agree with filling up tax-advantaged space first for investing.

What about general short-term savings goals? New car fund, house down payment fund, and so on. Typically people say to use a savings account, money market, or short-term bond fund. I agree with that. What i'm unsure of is the placement of funds. Is that assumed in taxable or does it always make sense to fill tax-advantaged space first?

Here's what we're currently doing:

$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$6,300 her 403(b) <-----tax-advantaged space remaining!
$24,000 to savings account for short-term savings goals

Would it make sense to do the following instead:
$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$18,000 max her 403(b) <-----filling up tax-advantaged space
$12,300 to savings account for short-term savings goals

When we need to spend that $24,000, pull $11,700 from a Roth IRA instead of from taxable.

End result is that we end up with more in a 403(b) and less in a Roth IRA.

furwut
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by furwut » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:51 pm

I would go with Plan B. Don't pass up the opportunity to claim tax advantaged space! But make sure you are comfortable with your overall savings rate for retirement.

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powermega
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by powermega » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:14 pm

I generally believe that people who have a decent job are better off trying to max out their qualified space and getting a loan for things like a car. (Yes, I know there are many around here who will disagree with me on this.) As far as specific savings goals, I would do that in a good savings account (Ally, Discover Bank, etc) and not even consider it as part of your long-term retirement allocation.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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Toons
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Toons » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:18 pm

Plan B :happy
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rkhusky
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by rkhusky » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:25 pm

You can pull Roth IRA contributions out tax and penalty free (earnings have to remain), but do so only in an emergency.

Topic Author
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:37 pm

rkhusky wrote:You can pull Roth IRA contributions out tax and penalty free (earnings have to remain), but do so only in an emergency.
This was always my line of thinking as well. In that case, you'd go with Plan A in my situation?

DSInvestor
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by DSInvestor » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:49 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:
Here's what we're currently doing:

$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$6,300 her 403(b) <-----tax-advantaged space remaining!
$24,000 to savings account for short-term savings goals

Would it make sense to do the following instead:
$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$18,000 max her 403(b) <-----filling up tax-advantaged space
$12,300 to savings account for short-term savings goals
In your second scenario, she increases her 403b contribution by $11,700 to max out for 18K and you reduced the amount going to savings account by 11,700. You did not account for the tax savings that an extra $11,700 tax deduction offers. If that 11,700 came entirely out of the 25% tax bracket, she would have $2925 in Fed tax savings. That extra 11,700 to 403b would cost her $8775 after-tax. Do you get state tax deduction for Traditional 403b contributions as well?

I assume you're both contributing to Traditional 401k/403b rather than Roth 401k/403b.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rob Bertram
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Rob Bertram » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Is there a plan C? Robbing your Roth account is a terrible idea. That should only happen in an emergency after other options have been exhausted.
Max tax-advantaged accounts, put the surplus in taxable.
Take out a car loan if <= 3%

If you need more cash for a big purchase (e.g., house down payment), then consider stopping your tax-deferred contributions for that year.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:54 pm

DSInvestor wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:
Here's what we're currently doing:

$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$6,300 her 403(b) <-----tax-advantaged space remaining!
$24,000 to savings account for short-term savings goals

Would it make sense to do the following instead:
$18,000 max his 401(k)
$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$18,000 max her 403(b) <-----filling up tax-advantaged space
$12,300 to savings account for short-term savings goals
In your second scenario, she increases her 403b contribution by $11,700 to max out for 18K and you reduced the amount going to savings account by 11,700. You did not account for the tax savings that an extra $11,700 tax deduction offers. If that 11,700 came entirely out of the 25% tax bracket, she would have $2925 in Fed tax savings. That extra 11,700 to 403b would cost her $8775 after-tax. Do you get state tax deduction for Traditional 403b contributions as well?

I assume you're both contributing to Traditional 401k/403b rather than Roth 401k/403b.
Yes, state tax deduction of 5%.

The 401(k) and 403(b) are both traditional.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:57 pm

Rob Bertram wrote:Is there a plan C? Robbing your Roth account is a terrible idea. That should only happen in an emergency after other options have been exhausted.
Max tax-advantaged accounts, put the surplus in taxable.
Take out a car loan if <= 3%

If you need more cash for a big purchase (e.g., house down payment), then consider stopping your tax-deferred contributions for that year.

I currently don't have a Plan C.

Why take out a car loan if less than 3%? Assuming a five-year loan, where am I going to get a guaranteed 3% or thereabout?

Rather than stopping my tax-deferred contributions the year I need to make a purchase, why not keep contributing all along, but a smaller amount that allows me to save money in a savings account, like my Plan A?

MathWizard
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by MathWizard » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:05 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:
rkhusky wrote:You can pull Roth IRA contributions out tax and penalty free (earnings have to remain), but do so only in an emergency.
This was always my line of thinking as well. In that case, you'd go with Plan A in my situation?
Plan A. It is what I do.

If you are going to pull 11K from the ROTH, that is not much different (other than short-term interest) than saying you'd put in


$0 his Roth IRA
$0 max her Roth IRA
$18,000 max her 403(b)

vs.

$5,500 max his Roth IRA
$5,500 max her Roth IRA
$7,000 her 403(b)


But convential wisdom is to fund tax deferred to the match, max ROTHs, then come back to tax deferred.

By ending up with less than the max in the ROTHs and more in the 403b is that you;ll have RMDs and a higher income
fr determining taxability of SS benefits.

DSInvestor
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by DSInvestor » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:09 pm

How much in emergency fund or short term reserves do you currently have and do you have any firm cash needs? If you have 5K emergency fund you may want to save more a month than if you currently have 50K emergency fund. With 50K emergency fund and no firm plans for large downpayment or car purchase, I'd definitely max out all tax advantaged options first.

If you live in HCOL and need to come up with 100K downpayment in 2 years, you'd have to think about how to prioritize that relative to retirement savings. Ideally, you'd want to be able to afford max out retirement plans and save for the downpayment.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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randomguy
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:13 pm

Rob Bertram wrote:Is there a plan C? Robbing your Roth account is a terrible idea. That should only happen in an emergency after other options have been exhausted.
Max tax-advantaged accounts, put the surplus in taxable.
Take out a car loan if <= 3%

If you need more cash for a big purchase (e.g., house down payment), then consider stopping your tax-deferred contributions for that year.
Probably better off using your ER fund or taking out a 401(k) loan. Reality is that you have a couple years early that are dicey and then you will have substantial taxable savings that will handle anything other than a house downpayment. With things like the house you would need to run the numbers to see what the smartest way of going is (put down 10% and pay pmi, take money out of the ROTH, cut other savings out for 2 years,....).

FWIW you take out loans because they are cheaper. A 5 year loan on a 30k car is ~2500 in interest. Compare that to the 6k+ in tax savings (yes you will pay some tax on that in the future. Odds are it will be much less than 6k) and stopping contributing to pay it off is a losing proposition. In the real world, you would pay off that 30k car in <3 years and pay even less interest. And with the 401(k) loan you are basically paying yourself interest at above the current rates.

Userdc
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Userdc » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:30 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:

I currently don't have a Plan C.

Why take out a car loan if less than 3%? Assuming a five-year loan, where am I going to get a guaranteed 3% or thereabout?
Many car loans are cheaper than 3%. Penfed has a 60 month new car loan at 2.25%.

Just borrow the $12K instead of using your roth, and invest that in laddered pen fed CDs/savings accounts over the life of that 2.25% loan. You'll pay ~$400-500 in net interest over the life of the loan, which (depending on timeframe and tax situation) is probably a bargain for $12K of roth space you otherwise can never get back.

Also consider taking financing from the dealer - there can sometimes be a free lunch based on how they are incentivized for pushing 0 or low APR loans.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:37 pm

DSInvestor wrote:How much in emergency fund or short term reserves do you currently have and do you have any firm cash needs? If you have 5K emergency fund you may want to save more a month than if you currently have 50K emergency fund. With 50K emergency fund and no firm plans for large downpayment or car purchase, I'd definitely max out all tax advantaged options first.

If you live in HCOL and need to come up with 100K downpayment in 2 years, you'd have to think about how to prioritize that relative to retirement savings. Ideally, you'd want to be able to afford max out retirement plans and save for the downpayment.
Right now we have about $72k in savings/CDs in taxable, $32k in Vanguard Total International in taxable, plus another $183k in 401(k) and IRA.

Over the coming years, here are my anticipated expenses that do not come out of my normal monthly spending budget:
-$8,000 to pay off my current car (it's a 0.50% rate so I'm in no hurry, as I'm making 0.99% in savings)
-$10,000 for repair and maintenance to get townhouse ready to sell - it will need a new air conditioner, windows, and some other smaller things done.
-$5,000 for fiance's master's degree courses remaining
-$40,000 for two new cars, one in 3 years and another in 10.
-$20,000 for new house down payment
-$8,500 realtor commissions on sale of current townhouse
-$3,000 closing costs on new house
-$25,000 money for furniture and other unexpected expenses at new house - because something is bound to go wrong and cost some money when you buy a new house

Obviously, much of these expenses are fluid and flexible. Our cars may last longer than we expect, I might get a new house cheaper than I thought, and maybe my current house will sell for more than I'm anticipating.

I'm thinking it's probably best to simply leave it in savings and continue to add to savings.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:38 pm

Userdc wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:

I currently don't have a Plan C.

Why take out a car loan if less than 3%? Assuming a five-year loan, where am I going to get a guaranteed 3% or thereabout?
Many car loans are cheaper than 3%. Penfed has a 60 month new car loan at 2.25%.

Just borrow the $12K instead of using your roth, and invest that in laddered pen fed CDs/savings accounts over the life of that 2.25% loan. You'll pay ~$400-500 in net interest over the life of the loan, which (depending on timeframe and tax situation) is probably a bargain for $12K of roth space you otherwise can never get back.

Also consider taking financing from the dealer - there can sometimes be a free lunch based on how they are incentivized for pushing 0 or low APR loans.
Absolutely, I agree with the loan if the alternative is pulling from the Roth. But in my Option A, where I'm pulling from savings instead, I don't see why I'd take a 2.25% loan when all I'm going to get in CDs is 2.25% anyway.

Rob Bertram
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Rob Bertram » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:06 pm

The difference between the three options should be tax-advantaged compound growth. With option C, you are deferring taxes until you want to spend the money which allows you to save more earlier. Why don't you try running the scenarios in a spreadsheet and see what your net worth will be once the car (or whatever) is fully paid off?

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:56 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:
DSInvestor wrote:How much in emergency fund or short term reserves do you currently have and do you have any firm cash needs? If you have 5K emergency fund you may want to save more a month than if you currently have 50K emergency fund. With 50K emergency fund and no firm plans for large downpayment or car purchase, I'd definitely max out all tax advantaged options first.

If you live in HCOL and need to come up with 100K downpayment in 2 years, you'd have to think about how to prioritize that relative to retirement savings. Ideally, you'd want to be able to afford max out retirement plans and save for the downpayment.
Right now we have about $72k in savings/CDs in taxable, $32k in Vanguard Total International in taxable, plus another $183k in 401(k) and IRA.

Over the coming years, here are my anticipated expenses that do not come out of my normal monthly spending budget:
-$8,000 to pay off my current car (it's a 0.50% rate so I'm in no hurry, as I'm making 0.99% in savings)
-$10,000 for repair and maintenance to get townhouse ready to sell - it will need a new air conditioner, windows, and some other smaller things done.
-$5,000 for fiance's master's degree courses remaining
-$40,000 for two new cars, one in 3 years and another in 10.
-$20,000 for new house down payment
-$8,500 realtor commissions on sale of current townhouse
-$3,000 closing costs on new house
-$25,000 money for furniture and other unexpected expenses at new house - because something is bound to go wrong and cost some money when you buy a new house

Obviously, much of these expenses are fluid and flexible. Our cars may last longer than we expect, I might get a new house cheaper than I thought, and maybe my current house will sell for more than I'm anticipating.

I'm thinking it's probably best to simply leave it in savings and continue to add to savings.
I don't see why you wouldn't max out deferred space right now? You list 120k of expenses (some of which don't show up for 10 years), and 100k in taxable. Adding in 15k/yr (from the tax savings) gives you a pretty huge cushion. If things change (house turns out to be more expensive, car dies tomorrow,....) reevaluate.

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by tyrion » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:15 pm

randomguy wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:
DSInvestor wrote:How much in emergency fund or short term reserves do you currently have and do you have any firm cash needs? If you have 5K emergency fund you may want to save more a month than if you currently have 50K emergency fund. With 50K emergency fund and no firm plans for large downpayment or car purchase, I'd definitely max out all tax advantaged options first.

If you live in HCOL and need to come up with 100K downpayment in 2 years, you'd have to think about how to prioritize that relative to retirement savings. Ideally, you'd want to be able to afford max out retirement plans and save for the downpayment.
Right now we have about $72k in savings/CDs in taxable, $32k in Vanguard Total International in taxable, plus another $183k in 401(k) and IRA.

Over the coming years, here are my anticipated expenses that do not come out of my normal monthly spending budget:
-$8,000 to pay off my current car (it's a 0.50% rate so I'm in no hurry, as I'm making 0.99% in savings)
-$10,000 for repair and maintenance to get townhouse ready to sell - it will need a new air conditioner, windows, and some other smaller things done.
-$5,000 for fiance's master's degree courses remaining
-$40,000 for two new cars, one in 3 years and another in 10.
-$20,000 for new house down payment
-$8,500 realtor commissions on sale of current townhouse
-$3,000 closing costs on new house
-$25,000 money for furniture and other unexpected expenses at new house - because something is bound to go wrong and cost some money when you buy a new house

Obviously, much of these expenses are fluid and flexible. Our cars may last longer than we expect, I might get a new house cheaper than I thought, and maybe my current house will sell for more than I'm anticipating.

I'm thinking it's probably best to simply leave it in savings and continue to add to savings.
I don't see why you wouldn't max out deferred space right now? You list 120k of expenses (some of which don't show up for 10 years), and 100k in taxable. Adding in 15k/yr (from the tax savings) gives you a pretty huge cushion. If things change (house turns out to be more expensive, car dies tomorrow,....) reevaluate.
+1 to this.

You've already saved up for most of the obligations, some of which are 10+ years out, and even after maxing out tax deferred space you're saving $12k/year. You can always scale back later, but for now it makes sense to max out the tax deferred space while reducing your taxable income.

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by retiredjg » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:32 am

Triple digit golfer wrote:I understand and agree with filling up tax-advantaged space first for investing.
I would say that filling up tax-advantaged space first is only appropriate for retirement or other very long term goals.

I would not put short term goal money in there unless you are doing the "putting cash needs in a retirement account" maneuver (see Wiki). And that requires a fairly large portfolio, a taxable account that is significantly larger than your needs, and the fortitude to sell stocks in a downturn. Meaning this maneuver is not for everybody.

What about general short-term savings goals? New car fund, house down payment fund, and so on. Typically people say to use a savings account, money market, or short-term bond fund. I agree with that. What i'm unsure of is the placement of funds. Is that assumed in taxable or does it always make sense to fill tax-advantaged space first?
To me, putting short term goals in taxable is what makes sense. In other words, Plan A. I would not use Roth assets for spending that I am pretty sure is going to happen. But I might use Roth assets for the next tier of an emergency fund once my real emergency fund is empty.

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by randomguy » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:40 am

retiredjg wrote: To me, putting short term goals in taxable is what makes sense. In other words, Plan A. I would not use Roth assets for spending that I am pretty sure is going to happen. But I might use Roth assets for the next tier of an emergency fund once my real emergency fund is empty.
Why not use the ROTH space? Imagine you think you are buying a house in 3 years and your choice is either put 15k in a roth (0 in taxable) or 15k in taxable (0 in roth). If you take the money out of the ROTH, you in the same place as taxable. But imagine it turns out you don't need the money. You can't go back and put the money in the ROTH. You can use the same logic to show why having an emergency fund when your not funding your ROTH fully is a poor idea.

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by retiredjg » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:06 am

randomguy wrote: But imagine it turns out you don't need the money. You can't go back and put the money in the ROTH. You can use the same logic to show why having an emergency fund when your not funding your ROTH fully is a poor idea.
For me it turns on the bolded sentence. In one case, there is a fair likelihood that they money won't be needed. But in this case there is a very high likelihood that the money will be spent on the short term goal.

I agree when first starting out that using Roth space is OK for an emergency fund. There, the question is no Roth vs Roth that might or might not get raided. And it comes to this decision because a person does not have the money to do both. This situation is not the same thing.

These people are saving money form something that almost certainly will happen. And they don't have to make a choice between saving for the new home and saving in Roth IRA. They can do both. There is no reason to sacrifice Roth space to do what they want to do. In their scenario, they are sacrificing 403b space to do it.

They could go ahead and put the extra money into Her 403b now and then take it out under the exception that applies to first homes (if that applies). That seems pretty harmless. But it also seems like a hassle since it is so likely the money will actually be used in the not too distant future.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:39 pm

Over the next several years, by my calculations posted yesterday, I'll need somewhere around $120,000.

Right now I have $72k in savings/CDs and another $32k in Vanguard Total International Stock Index.

Plan A: Keep doing what I'm doing (not maxing her 403b) and add about $2,000 per month to savings.
In two years, we'll have $120,000 in savings/CDs and $32,000 in Vanguard Total International Stock Index. The rest will be tax-sheltered in 401k, 403b, and Roth IRAs.
Total $152,000 in taxable minus $120,000 spent = $32,000 remaining in taxable.

Plan B: Increase her 403b contributions to the max, which will give us an additional $11,700 in her 403b and her take-home pay about $8,775/year lower. As a result, only $1,269/month is going to savings.
In two years, we'll have around $104,500 in savings/CDs and $32,000 in Vanguard Total International Stock Index. The rest will be tax-sheltered in 401k, 403b, and Roth IRAs.

Either method leaves us with more than $120,000 in taxable.

Is there a reason not go with with Plan B here?

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by retiredjg » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:43 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:Either method leaves us with more than $120,000 in taxable.

Is there a reason not go with with Plan B here?
I don't see one unless there will be no emergency fund if/when you spend the $120k.

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Triple digit golfer
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Triple digit golfer » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:57 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:Either method leaves us with more than $120,000 in taxable.

Is there a reason not go with with Plan B here?
I don't see one unless there will be no emergency fund if/when you spend the $120k.
I was considering that. I think for now, I feel comfortable having $100k+ in taxable and still adding to it. The money won't all be spent at exactly the same time, so we'll have time to scale back 403b contributions to bump up our taxable account if necessary.

I have a feeling that I'm being extremely conservative and in a few years may regret not maxing out tax-advantaged space while I'm sitting on a pile of cash.

I'd rather max out the tax-advantaged space now, then if later on cash for future goals is a bit tight, just scale it back.

retiredjg
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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by retiredjg » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:I have a feeling that I'm being extremely conservative and in a few years may regret not maxing out tax-advantaged space while I'm sitting on a pile of cash.
Sounds to me like you have figured a way to manage both.

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Re: Quick question on tax-advantaged space

Post by Twins Fan » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:17 pm

Triple digit golfer wrote:Right now we have about $72k in savings/CDs in taxable, $32k in Vanguard Total International in taxable, plus another $183k in 401(k) and IRA.

Over the coming years, here are my anticipated expenses that do not come out of my normal monthly spending budget:
-$8,000 to pay off my current car (it's a 0.50% rate so I'm in no hurry, as I'm making 0.99% in savings)
-$10,000 for repair and maintenance to get townhouse ready to sell - it will need a new air conditioner, windows, and some other smaller things done.
-$5,000 for fiance's master's degree courses remaining
-$40,000 for two new cars, one in 3 years and another in 10.
-$20,000 for new house down payment
-$8,500 realtor commissions on sale of current townhouse
-$3,000 closing costs on new house
-$25,000 money for furniture and other unexpected expenses at new house - because something is bound to go wrong and cost some money when you buy a new house

Obviously, much of these expenses are fluid and flexible. Our cars may last longer than we expect, I might get a new house cheaper than I thought, and maybe my current house will sell for more than I'm anticipating.

I'm thinking it's probably best to simply leave it in savings and continue to add to savings.
I think you're over-shooting your savings goals. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing to do that. But...

$8k saved for a car you're going to pay off per the loan schedule because of a low interest rate (no problem with that), but what is the savings for there?? That's covered by your income, I'm guessing.
$10k for the town home fix ups, no problem... good goal.
$5k for remaining masters courses, no problem... good goal.
$40k for two new cars, one of which is 10 years out?? I would put more of this toward the down payment on next home.
$20k down on next home, no problem... good goal, and like I said I would put more from above to this.
$8.5k to realtor for sale of town home... wouldn't/couldn't this come out of the sale of the town home?
$3k for closing on next home... make the seller pay that, or could be put into the next mortgage.
$25K for furniture and expenses?? Unless you have no furniture at all now or you buy a total money pit, I see that as excessive. IMO

I think you're fine where you're at and could add more to tax advantaged space. But, if you want to count all those expenses and save more for them, I would go with plan A. You have to remember where you're asking and posting sometimes. Outside of Bogleheads many or most can't max out tax advantaged space. Even in Bogleheads some can't. I don't... not because I don't want to, but because maxing out deferred comp would really leave things tight between the paycheck every two weeks and the bills. If at the end of the year I end up with a little more cash in savings that could have gone to deferred comp,... hey, at least I didn't blow it at a casino. :) have to find the balance of what make you comfortable.

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