Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

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tt122209
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Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:12 pm

We are both Federal employees, both will have 34 years govt service in 2015. He is 56 and plans to retire May 31. She is 54 and is able to take VERA (Voluntary Early Retirement - no incentive) in May 2015, or will be fully eligible when 55 in Jan 2016. If she retires early she will take a 1.2% penalty on her pension, which equals $50 per month.

Current Financial Situation:

Total assets $1,380,000.
No debt
House paid off worth $275,000
His net pension (retirement date May 31 2015) will be $4,200 per month which includes cost of health care
Her net pension (retirement date May 1 under VERA) will be $3,500 per month
Annual combined pension net will be ~$92,400

TAXABLE JOINT:

Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Admiral Fund - $77,000
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Market Index Admiral Fund - $29,000
103,000 5 year CD matures 3/2018
$300,000 Savings

HIS RETIREMENT:

TSP 100% G Fund $345,000 + 20,000 2015 Contribution prior to retirement in May
Roth Vanguard Total Intl Stock Market Admiral - $120,000 + $6,500 annually

HER RETIREMENT:

TSP G & C Funds - $224,000 G; $64,000 C + 20,000 2015 contribution prior to retirement in May
Roth Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Admiral $130,000 + 6,5000 annually

We have a good deal in cash because we are VERY cautious investors. We cashed in a good chunk of mutual funds after the market rebounded to where we had been (out of fear of losing again) and this money has sat in our savings since then. I am sure this has hurt us and we could have done far better, especially in his TSP if we had been invested in the C fund while the market was chugging along especially after the downfall. But, we did not do this and can't go back. We have used many online calculators....everything shows we are financially able to retire and can live the lifestyle we have been living on our joint pensions. I (wife) still have concerns (still wonder if I should take the early retirement despite knowing in my gut I need to get out of a very stressful environment...for my own emotional health). Our pension should certainly be enough to live without dipping into our TSP or Roth for a long time (15-20 years is my hope). I am still having doubts that we are financially ready, and wonder what we can do better for the next 1, 2, 3 decades.

What should we do at this point with all this cash, and should we stick with what we have as far as where are TSP money is? We are investing bits into our taxable Vanguard funds ($2,000 per month dollar cost averaging), drawing down our savings to put more in the market (very slowly). I am leery to dump a huge chunk into the Vanguard accounts all at once now that the market is higher than its been for the most part. I don't want to be so conservative that we are being stupid (which I could kick myself for being for many years and not letting our money work for us as we could or should have) but I also don't want extreme risk at this point. Just want a good balance to see us through our retirement.

We are fortunate to be able to actually retire at this young age and we know this. We want to do so while we are healthy and can still enjoy travel or whatever we want to do on our terms. Just looking for reassurance and some guidance if possible. Appreciate any input and advice.
Last edited by tt122209 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dbr
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by dbr » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:27 pm

Whenever a case comes up where people have pension income that meets what they want to spend, with a COLA, the real question is what they want to do with their savings beyond that. So, what are your thoughts?

Here are some ideas:

1. You need a reserve to count on when there are unplanned/unfortunate needs. Since inflation is always a head wind (most always) put this in TIPS or even the G fund and leave it there. Evaluate the possibility you should have long term care insurance. Never hold less than 25% in stocks.

2. Your spending is underestimated and/or you are going to decide you would like to spend more. See if that extra amount results in withdrawals from assets that would be concerning. For your situation you can start thinking about this if the withdrawal rate goes past 2% to the 3%-4% range.

3. You want to invest for someone else as a legacy or are interest in gifting assets.

stan1
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by stan1 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:33 pm

With your stable and inflation indexed pension income you'll eventually come to the conclusion that you are investing for your heirs. You can either decide to stay conservative because you don't need to take risk or you can decide to invest with an asset allocation appropriate for your heirs because you are unlikely to need most of the money. Personally I think 56 is young to make a decision to invest for your heirs, but by the time you are 75 or 80 you might find yourselves gifting money to your heirs in advance of your deaths or investing in an asset allocation appropriate for their age/risk profile.

Minot
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by Minot » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:55 pm

tt122209 wrote:Roth Vanguard Total Intl Stock Market Admiral - $120,000 + $6,500 annually
Not sure what you mean by "+$6,500 annually". Once you are retired you will no longer have earned income, so you will not be able to contribute more to your Roth (or any other IRA).

HIinvestor
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:15 pm

Have you put up to 10% of your after tax lifetime federal income into a Voluntary Contribution Account for each of you? This is a special provision available for CSRS employees and when you have completed your contributions to the Vol Contribution Account, you can roll it over into a Roth IRA for each of you. This is a nice, painless way to transfer after tax $$ into a Roth IRA, as long as you carefully follow the steps--
1. create your Voluntary Contribution Accounts
2. determine your respective lifetime federal income
3. contribute up to 10% after tax $$$ into the accounts (you can use charge cards, debit card or check)
4. retire
5. roll account into Roth IRA

At least this is what we did when H was a CSRS employee, before he retired.

trueblueky
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by trueblueky » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Why 31 May, which is a Sunday? Typically, the best days to retire under CSRS are the first three days of the month. Retiring 3 June looks good -- get three full days of salary and 9/10 of a month annuity for June.

With VERA, you may need to be off the rolls by the end of the month. If not, recommend 3 June for you too.

Save as much leave as possible to cash in at the end. I cashed nearly 11 weeks of annual, which was a big help while waiting for the annuity to be finalized. I had two interim, then caught up during the third month of retirement -- I've heard horror stories from others. Your agency is the first ones to handle your retirement; talk to them and make sure they have whatever they need. OPM uses the documentation your agency provides them.

Save sick leave too, as tempting as it may be to use some to avoid the toxic environment, since it adds to service time.

Best wishes on your new adventure

bsteiner
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by bsteiner » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:52 pm

HIinvestor wrote:Have you put up to 10% of your after tax lifetime federal income into a Voluntary Contribution Account for each of you? This is a special provision available for CSRS employees and when you have completed your contributions to the Vol Contribution Account, you can roll it over into a Roth IRA for each of you. This is a nice, painless way to transfer after tax $$ into a Roth IRA, as long as you carefully follow the steps--
1. create your Voluntary Contribution Accounts
2. determine your respective lifetime federal income
3. contribute up to 10% after tax $$$ into the accounts (you can use charge cards, debit card or check)
4. retire
5. roll account into Roth IRA. ...


This seems like a tremendous benefit. How do you do this? How far in advance of retirement do you have to start the process?

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:18 pm

HIinvestor wrote:Have you put up to 10% of your after tax lifetime federal income into a Voluntary Contribution Account for each of you? This is a special provision available for CSRS employees and when you have completed your contributions to the Vol Contribution Account, you can roll it over into a Roth IRA for each of you. This is a nice, painless way to transfer after tax $$ into a Roth IRA, as long as you carefully follow the steps--
1. create your Voluntary Contribution Accounts
2. determine your respective lifetime federal income
3. contribute up to 10% after tax $$$ into the accounts (you can use charge cards, debit card or check)
4. retire
5. roll account into Roth IRA

At least this is what we did when H was a CSRS employee, before he retired.



I have never heard of this...... is this something that has to be done before retiring and where can i find more information?

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:20 pm

trueblueky wrote:Why 31 May, which is a Sunday? Typically, the best days to retire under CSRS are the first three days of the month. Retiring 3 June looks good -- get three full days of salary and 9/10 of a month annuity for June.

With VERA, you may need to be off the rolls by the end of the month. If not, recommend 3 June for you too.

Save as much leave as possible to cash in at the end. I cashed nearly 11 weeks of annual, which was a big help while waiting for the annuity to be finalized. I had two interim, then caught up during the third month of retirement -- I've heard horror stories from others. Your agency is the first ones to handle your retirement; talk to them and make sure they have whatever they need. OPM uses the documentation your agency provides them.

Save sick leave too, as tempting as it may be to use some to avoid the toxic environment, since it adds to service time.

Best wishes on your new adventure


actually it would be may 30 but I see what you are saying and will discuss this with my husband.

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:22 pm

Minot wrote:
tt122209 wrote:Roth Vanguard Total Intl Stock Market Admiral - $120,000 + $6,500 annually
Not sure what you mean by "+$6,500 annually". Once you are retired you will no longer have earned income, so you will not be able to contribute more to your Roth (or any other IRA).


I should have said for 2015, prior to retirement.

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:30 pm

thank you for all of the input.

regarding roth IRA's I mean that we plan to max out for 2015 prior to retiring.

we have already helped our two adult children quite a bit. they are 25 and 28 both work for the Govt, and in addition to allowing them to complete their bachelors degrees debt free we have given them each $75,000 that they have used towards down payment on homes. right now we are thinking about "us" and what we want to do for ourselves, after working for decades and raising our children who are fortunate enough to both have their independence and jobs. the only large expenses I could forsee is if we decide on new vehicles and pay cash, or if we do any type of remodel on our home like a kitchen. yes, we would like to leave a legacy for our children but we want to enjoy ourselves too, as well as assure we can pay for quality care later in life if need be. We normally spend around $10000 per year on vacations and plan to continue this, possibly renting a place in FL for two or three months in the winger (at least try it once to see how we like it.

we do not have long term care insurance but are researching and would appreciate input on this also...good or bad idea?

I would like advice on what we could be doing better with the large amount in our savings account and would like to get to a 50% stock allocation to help us keep up with inflation, since it is unlikely we will need to draw any large sums from our money for quite awhile.
Last edited by tt122209 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

alisa4804
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by alisa4804 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:34 pm

tt122209 wrote: I have never heard of this...... is this something that has to be done before retiring and where can i find more information?


Yes, Voluntary Contributions is one of the best, unadvertised perks of being a CSRS retiree. FERS retirees are not eligible. CSRS employees can deposit up to 10% of their total federal earnings, as described above, but it needs to be deposited before your retirement date.

Check out info on opm.gov:
http://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/ ... tributions

HIinvestor
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:35 pm

It's only for CSRS employees while they are still employed. I pieced together the information by reading a bunch of federal employee forums and we were happy to convert a significant amount of H's lifetime earnings into a Roth IRA> We created the Voluntary Contribution account first with about $1000 (after tax money from our checking account).

We waited until they gave us an account number and then tried to determine 10% of H's lifetime basic pay earnings with the federal government. We couldn't get a firm answer because he's had a bunch of different agencies process his paperwork over the decades but made our best guess via SS statements we received.

The phone number you can call to get more info about Voluntary COntribution accounts for CSRS emloyees is 888-828-9451. We did use our credit card that gives us back 2% to charge H's voluntary contribution amounts on the website, http://www.pay.gov. You can read the OPM publications, "Retirement Fact Pamphlet on Voluntary Contributions" a RI-83-010 and "Voluntary Contribution Notice" RI-38-125.

Only CSRS employees are eligible for Voluntary Contributions and only while they are still employed by the federal government. The VC accounts stop earning interest when you separate for immediate retirement. You need to complete a "Voluntary Contribution Election" form RI 38-124 at least 60 days before retrieement to avoid a loss in interest on refunds. We had the VC funds paid directly to an unfunded Roth IRA for H that we set up with a brokerage and funded solely with the VC funds. The CPA and broker agreed that what we did was fine and there were no tax consequences with the rollover. We did pay tax on the interest earned on the VC funds while it was held by OPM (Office of Personnel Management).

If we hadn't wanted to rollover H's VC to a Roth IRA, we could have chosen an annuity (with no COLA), but that wasn't nearly as attractive to us. The brochures have more information.

ChrisC
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:55 pm

Great information about the VCP. As someone who also took advantage of the VCP, I don't think you have to actually elect to have a refund 60 days before retirement seperation. You can, as I did, request the refund with your retirement papers or a short time later. I separated/retired in June 2013 and I received my refund (two separate checks of contributions and accrued interest) in September 2013, which I promptly rolled over to a Roth IRA and a T-IRA.

HIinvestor
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:33 pm

Yes, I rolled H's VCP funds into a tIRA and Roth IRA as well. They didn't transfer until they could finally confirm his total federal basic pay over the decades he was employed, so that was a glitch but otherwise everything went very smoothly. It is the most we have had in a Roth and nice that we didn't have to pay tax to convert anything, since the VCP is funded with after-tax dollars. To us, the VCP was MUCH more important than which was the optimal day to retire.

The other problem H had was Medicare B. He enrolled in Medicare A shortly after he turned 65, but didn't bother to sign up for Medicare B because he was still employed and could forgo it without penalty while he was fully employed. He did apply for Medicare B after he retired and didn't understand why we didn't receive the card and the withholding from the pension. We finally went down to the local SS office to inquire.

After waiting 2 hours, the SS clerk said that H's Medicare B paperwork was denied. I was shocked, since we had received no notice of denial -- email or otherwise. He gave us no particular reason, just that we completed the form wrong and sent us on our way. H went back the next day and fortunately spoke to someone else who immediately approved THE SAME PAPERWORK and had his Medicare B start as of September (so I guess we should be grateful that we saved 6 months of premiums), but we almost were penalized 10% (which happens if you don't apply within 8 months of your last day of work or when you were 1st eligibile).

One other thing you may need to consider is the Windfall Elimination Provision, which would make it tough to collect SS benefits as a spouse (if you qualify for any). For example, H will never qualify for spousal SS benefits since his pension is higher than any spousal benefit he would collect. You should speak with HR about any other provisions that apply to you.

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:47 pm

alisa4804 wrote:
tt122209 wrote: I have never heard of this...... is this something that has to be done before retiring and where can i find more information?


Yes, Voluntary Contributions is one of the best, unadvertised perks of being a CSRS retiree. FERS retirees are not eligible. CSRS employees can deposit up to 10% of their total federal earnings, as described above, but it needs to be deposited before your retirement date.

Check out info on opm.gov:
http://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/ ... tributions


If I retire at age 54, am I still eligible to do the Voluntary Contribution?

And would I just roll it over to my current Vanguard Roth IRA? I don't need a new/separate Roth for just this money do I?

Since I have to be off the rolls May 1 I need to do some very quick research on this...I just purchased the ebook to read up on it. Amazing that I have never heard of this until now.

HIinvestor
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:07 pm

Yes, you should be fine just rolling it over into an existing Roth IRA. I just created one in an abundance of caution, so we could keep track of the funds that came from the VC account. You can set up a VC account right away and then have to wait until you get an account number to maximally fund it (at least that's how I did it for H). You can try to find out your and H's lifetime basic pay with the federal government, if you both want to be able to contribute the max.

Glad to be of help. I was thrilled when I figured this all out, as no one had told my H anything about this and we had very little in any Roth account. This allowed us to boost it considerably.

This is one of the little "secrets" that is not publicized but can really make a difference if you don't need to draw down on your Roth IRA and want to be able to let it grow as long as possible. I saw nothing that requires CSRS empooyees to have attained any particular age before being able to set up or contribute to a VC account. The limitation is that your account can never hold more than 10% of the lifetime basic pay to date. There were some other limitations that I forget (they didn't apply to our situation). The brochures should have the info you need.

ChrisC
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:22 pm

tt122209 wrote:
alisa4804 wrote:
tt122209 wrote: I have never heard of this...... is this something that has to be done before retiring and where can i find more information?


Yes, Voluntary Contributions is one of the best, unadvertised perks of being a CSRS retiree. FERS retirees are not eligible. CSRS employees can deposit up to 10% of their total federal earnings, as described above, but it needs to be deposited before your retirement date.

Check out info on opm.gov:
http://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/ ... tributions


If I retire at age 54, am I still eligible to do the Voluntary Contribution?

And would I just roll it over to my current Vanguard Roth IRA? I don't need a new/separate Roth for just this money do I?

Since I have to be off the rolls May 1 I need to do some very quick research on this...I just purchased the ebook to read up on it. Amazing that I have never heard of this until now.


If I were you, I'd seek out the wealth of information in the FederalSoup forums (where some of us have posted their experiences) about the VCP. It is amazing that many CSRS people don't take advantage of the program because even if you just used the account to park cash, the Government interest rates are very good -- comparable to G-Fund rates annualized, I think. And the interest grows tax deferred and subject to rollover in a T-IRA. The benefits of the program get even better when you make contributions through pay.gov, using credit cards for cash back discounts or frequent flyer miles -- it's the best manufactured spend I've ever encountered! And of course the ability to use the after-tax contributions to supersize a Roth IRA is a splendid benefit. You should run to this program, post haste!

It does not matter that you're about to retire for eligibility purposes -- you need to be a CSRS employee on the rolls to open the account and to make contributions. And it's important that you don't have to make any "redeposits" of CSRS contributions for prior credited service in which one did not make contributions to the CSRS retirement fund. See http://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/ ... ce-credit/. You cannot participate in VCP if you have to make redeposits. It took me a year to get the redeposits straightened out with OPM. Good luck.

ChrisC
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:50 pm

HIinvestor wrote:One other thing you may need to consider is the Windfall Elimination Provision, which would make it tough to collect SS benefits as a spouse (if you qualify for any). For example, H will never qualify for spousal SS benefits since his pension is higher than any spousal benefit he would collect. You should speak with HR about any other provisions that apply to you.


You might be conflating the Government Pension Offset (GPO) with WEP, but neither of which would apply if the OP and his spouse spent their entire working lives in the Federal service. GPO would preclude one spouse (like me) from obtaining spousal retirement benefits from another spouse (like my wife) because the Government pension is offset against the spousal retirement benefits (my spouse will very good SS retirement benefits). WEP substantially reduces the amount of SS retirement benefit payments a CSRS annuitant (like me) would receive -- this is done by an adjustment and reduction in the overall percentage that the SS recipient/CSRS annuitant would be calculated to receive. WEP never eliminates all of your retirement benefits, but reduces it sharply unless you have "substantial SS earnings." In my case, I had 37 SS credits before I retired from the Government and since I retired, I have met the earnings requirements of SS to have 40 credits through part-time consulting. I will get retirement benefits from SS but WEP will reduce them sharply.

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tarnation
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:47 pm

For those of you looking for info on VCP to Roth. In the thread below I post links to two articles and two WFED radio shows on topic. It really is an incredible opportunity. probably should make a wiki page.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68634
ok for you lazy bones. :)
Here is a Zurndorfer article for more info. http://www.myfederalretirement.com/public/481.cfm
Tammy Flanagan article. It has a link to the FERS and CSRS handbook at OPM. http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0509/052209rp.htm
Two WFED shows:
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.p ... id=2072493
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.p ... id=1898590
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tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:22 am

To clarify on the Voluntarily Contribution:

Open VCP account
Fund Account up to 10% lifetime earnings

Must you transfer the money to the Roth prior to retirement?
Also, what is this pay.gov option suggesting funding or partially funding the VCP using your credit card? Are you suggesting charging CC to max limit to earn perks, then paying off balance right away? Not sure what pay.gov is...

If we did the VCP this would allow us to take 2/3 of out cash and roll into the Roths and leave us a generous 100k for emergency fund. Is this a good plan?

Thank you all for continued info.

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tarnation
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:26 am

tt122209 wrote:To clarify on the Voluntarily Contribution:

Open VCP account
Fund Account up to 10% lifetime earnings

Must you transfer the money to the Roth prior to retirement?
Also, what is this pay.gov option suggesting funding or partially funding the VCP using your credit card? Are you suggesting charging CC to max limit to earn perks, then paying off balance right away? Not sure what pay.gov is...

If we did the VCP this would allow us to take 2/3 of out cash and roll into the Roths and leave us a generous 100k for emergency fund. Is this a good plan?

Thank you all for continued info.

I would fund the VCP to maximum allowed even if if draws your emergency fund below your target. If you have an emergency you can always withdraw from the Roth, but if you don't then you lose the once shot opportunity to get it in.
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tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:58 am

tarnation wrote:
tt122209 wrote:To clarify on the Voluntarily Contribution:

Open VCP account
Fund Account up to 10% lifetime earnings

Must you transfer the money to the Roth prior to retirement?
Also, what is this pay.gov option suggesting funding or partially funding the VCP using your credit card? Are you suggesting charging CC to max limit to earn perks, then paying off balance right away? Not sure what pay.gov is...

If we did the VCP this would allow us to take 2/3 of out cash and roll into the Roths and leave us a generous 100k for emergency fund. Is this a good plan?

Thank you all for continued info.

I would fund the VCP to maximum allowed even if if draws your emergency fund below your target. If you have an emergency you can always withdraw from the Roth, but if you don't then you lose the once shot opportunity to get it in.


That makes sense. As I read through all of this info on VCP some articles talk about transferring the money to a traditional IRA then to a Roth. It seems others have not done this and have moved it directly into a Roth.

Has anyone done this with Vanguard, as that is where I would be moving the money to? Were there any issues doing so, and did you have to provide them with proof of the lifetime earnings or any documentation related to how you arrived at the 10%?

ChrisC
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:30 pm

tt122209 wrote:To clarify on the Voluntarily Contribution:

Open VCP account
Fund Account up to 10% lifetime earnings

Must you transfer the money to the Roth prior to retirement?
Also, what is this pay.gov option suggesting funding or partially funding the VCP using your credit card? Are you suggesting charging CC to max limit to earn perks, then paying off balance right away? Not sure what pay.gov is...

If we did the VCP this would allow us to take 2/3 of out cash and roll into the Roths and leave us a generous 100k for emergency fund. Is this a good plan?

Thank you all for continued info.


You can transfer the funds after you retire, which is what I did. I opened my account in 2012, and funded it the last 9 months of my service, making contributions through pay.gov. You need to open an account at pay.gov, which is a portal in which people or entities may make certain payments to the Federal government. Agencies designate the type of payments they will permit to pass through the portal. And yes, the idea is to pay with a credit card up to your maximum level and pay off the balance within the prescribed period that allows you to avoid finance charges. You can also pay by electronic check, too! To take advantage of leveraging credit card benefits, I upgraded my credit card limit and made payments by the credit card, earning points/frequent flyer miles. Others get cash back if they use a cash back credit card.

If you have $300K in cash, I'd place the funds in the VCP (both of you have the capacity to contribute, assuming 10 percent of your lifetime earnings are not tripped by the large contributions). And then roll the $300K, after-tax contributions, to separate Roth IRAs and then rollover the accrued interest to your TSP or tIRA accounts. You can have OPM transfer the funds directly to your deferred retirement accounts. There are prescribed forms for doing on this.

tt122209
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:46 pm

Ok.... Its all coming together (I think); however, talked to three people at vanguard this morning and none have a clue about this VCP. They want a Govt contact to whoever manages the VCP to work thru the transfer process. They said I will need to fill out their Vanguard rollover kit and will also need to submit the Govt form authorizing this (is that the RI 38-125?).
I have no idea who to give them as a Govt POC.

ChrisC
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:13 pm

tt122209 wrote:Ok.... Its all coming together (I think); however, talked to three people at vanguard this morning and none have a clue about this VCP. They want a Govt contact to whoever manages the VCP to work thru the transfer process. They said I will need to fill out their Vanguard rollover kit and will also need to submit the Govt form authorizing this (is that the RI 38-125?).
I have no idea who to give them as a Govt POC.


I wouldn't overthink this with your IRA custodians who would generally be clueless about this unique program. If you went to OPM about this searching for a Government contact, I think they would laugh at you, assuming you could find someone in OPM to help you with this. Download the following link and take it to your custodians when you're about to transfer funds. http://www.nitpinc.com/Roth_Radio_8-2-2013.pdf. I'm sure at that time they'll figure out something. :dollar My VCP funds were rolled over to Wells Fargo -- all they asked was for me to fill out a simple form for them. I delivered the checks to them (made payable to Wells Roth and Wells tIRA). The only hassle I had was with getting a 1099-R Rollover form from OPM for tax year 2013.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:36 pm

Ok. I'm still not clear why some put VCP money into both Roth and Traditional? I thought this was for rollover to just Roth?

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:43 pm

The VCP principal you put in can all be rolled over into other ROTH IRA. The interest earned on that principal while it is in your VCP account can either be taken as a lump sum check or rolled into a tIRA (can't be added to your ROTH IRA). For us, we decided to just keep the interest as a lump sum payment and rollover the VCP principal into a Roth IRA (just didn't want to jeopardize that).

It is NOT surprising that brokerages don't know about VCP Plans, as fewer and fewer folks qualify for them any more (most have already retired or are retiring like you, since they have to be CSRS employees). I had to educate our Schwab broker about this, as well as our CPA. They both agreed it was a great opportunity and worked like a charm. I would leave as much as you can in the rollover Roth IRA and not worry about having the exact amount you want in your emergency fund. Follow the info in the federal brochures that I referenced in earlier posts for details about VCP.

After you retire, you will likely be getting some lump sum payments as well as your pension payments and should be fine. I hazily recall H getting several lump sum payments connected with his retirement.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:01 pm

Great. What is the quickest way to get an estimate on the 10%? Is there a way to get this through SS website easily and compute it?

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:17 pm

tt122209 wrote:Great. What is the quickest way to get an estimate on the 10%? Is there a way to get this through SS website easily and compute it?

Dig up your last SS earnings mailing circa 2010? I used to put mine in my tax folder for that year.
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:22 pm

tt122209 wrote:Great. What is the quickest way to get an estimate on the 10%? Is there a way to get this through SS website easily and compute it?


It could take you very long time to get an exact figure from OPM, but you can try. It took me around 6 months to get the estimate, but I got it after I established a Voluntary Contributions Account. I don't believe the people who administer the VCP are the same OPM people who could give your lifetime Federal earnings record. Your own HR group at your agency might be helpful in going over your record and providing you an estimate. But a good way to estimate your total Federal earnings would be to get your earnings record from Social Security at the Social Security website, but you might miss a few years if you worked with the Federal Government before 1983, like I did, because Social Security keeps track of earnings that are subject to taxed Medicare earnings and before 1983, Federal employees did not pay Medicare taxes.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:48 pm

ChrisC wrote:
tt122209 wrote:Great. What is the quickest way to get an estimate on the 10%? Is there a way to get this through SS website easily and compute it?


It could take you very long time to get an exact figure from OPM, but you can try. It took me around 6 months to get the estimate, but I got it after I established a Voluntary Contributions Account. I don't believe the people who administer the VCP are the same OPM people who could give your lifetime Federal earnings record. Your own HR group at your agency might be helpful in going over your record and providing you an estimate. But a good way to estimate your total Federal earnings would be to get your earnings record from Social Security at the Social Security website, but you might miss a few years if you worked with the Federal Government before 1983, like I did, because Social Security keeps track of earnings that are subject to taxed Medicare earnings and before 1983, Federal employees did not pay Medicare taxes.

According to the zurndorfer article, You can do anything until you get your account approved.

Code: Select all

Employees who want to make voluntary contributions must obtain form SF 2804, Application to Make Voluntary Contributions (downloadable from the OPM website here), complete SF 2804, and submit to the agency's personnel office. 

An employee must pay all deposits or redeposits for temporary service or refunded service prior to making voluntary contributions. An employee should not send money with the application. OPM will not accept contributions until it has approved the employee's application.

I would go ahead and get that rolling, that way know your past the redeposit hurdle etc.
Also from the 2804 instructions is says

Code: Select all

OPM will compute
your limitation when you retire or close out your account.
We will accept the contributions you make; however, when
you retire or close out your account, any amount found to
be in excess of your limit will be refunded, without interest.
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:56 pm

Also, one other thing, instead of Roth, you can also buy more annuity. Looks like it is 7% per year min plus extra based on years of service, with no COLA's. But based on your info above, seems like you have the annuity part covered.
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:53 pm

I went to the SS website and computed both of our earnings so I have those figures now.

Question: Is the 10% pretax earnings or after tax earnings because that makes a difference?

I am turning in the application to HR tomorrow to open the account and get that ball rolling. my husband has a small $1,200 sum that he needs to redeposit and he started the paperwork on that today and can't open his account until that is squared away. he's already talked to opm and has a point of contact to keep track of this and get it squared away hopefully within a month (wishful thinking).

both husband and I went to several of our respective coworkers today to ask about this program and only one person out of about 15 of those in csrs knew it existed. i've also posted the question on a facebook site which includes many csrs employees from my agency/area and not one knew about this program. we have each been to two retirement seminars and do not believe this was EVER mentioned in the seminars. had I not heard about it here I would never have known. so glad this was brought up and that we can hopefully get this squared away prior to retiring in four months (especially him with the payback issue). this all but solves the issue of what to do with the excessive amount sitting in savings right now not working for us.

I'm thinking that we will roll over the money from this fund into Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth Fund 40/60.
Does that sound like a good place to park what will amount to 250,000-300,000 (assuming he gets his redeposit squared away prior to retiring; if not cut this amount in half) for the long haul, and based on the initial financial breakout that I gave when I started this thread?

thank you all again for your knowledge and insight.
I guess this thread morphed into something else entirely, which is not a bad thing.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by 2cents2 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:34 pm

tt122209 wrote:Ok.... Its all coming together (I think); however, talked to three people at vanguard this morning and none have a clue about this VCP. They want a Govt contact to whoever manages the VCP to work thru the transfer process. They said I will need to fill out their Vanguard rollover kit and will also need to submit the Govt form authorizing this (is that the RI 38-125?).
I have no idea who to give them as a Govt POC.


http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/ri38-124.pdf
https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tsp-60.pdf

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by ChrisC » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:06 pm

tt122209 wrote:Question: Is the 10% pretax earnings or after tax earnings because that makes a difference?


It should be pretax or gross Federal salary earnings, but I don't think this includes cash awards, bonuses, or overtime pay.



tt122209 wrote:both husband and I went to several of our respective coworkers today to ask about this program and only one person out of about 15 of those in csrs knew it existed. i've also posted the question on a facebook site which includes many csrs employees from my agency/area and not one knew about this program. we have each been to two retirement seminars and do not believe this was EVER mentioned in the seminars. had I not heard about it here I would never have known. so glad this was brought up and that we can hopefully get this squared away prior to retiring in four months (especially him with the payback issue). this all but solves the issue of what to do with the excessive amount sitting in savings right now not working for us.


Not entirely surprising to me. Mike Causey, a former columnist for the Washington Post who covered the Federal workforce, used to annually write a column extolling the benefits of the VCP. He left the Post around a decade ago and no one really writes about this program at the Post or other newspapers. I think the NARFRE (the National Association of Retired Federal Employees occasionally mentions it in its monthly publication. Many of my former colleagues in the DC area who were CSRS know about the program and some have opted out for the additional annuity, too. But I do believe the participation rate among current CSRS folks is very low

tt122209 wrote:I'm thinking that we will roll over the money from this fund into Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth Fund 40/60.
Does that sound like a good place to park what will amount to 250,000-300,000 (assuming he gets his redeposit squared away prior to retiring; if not cut this amount in half) for the long haul, and based on the initial financial breakout that I gave when I started this thread?
Sounds like this fits your conservative risk profile. There are varying views on acceptable risk when you have the backstop of a Federal COLA adjusted pension. I take a lot more risk even though all of my expenses, including ramped up travel, are covered by the pension. My investment decisions are more legacy driven than driven by accumulating wealth for me. So, my profile is more 60/40 though I would be comfortable with 80-20, too, which is the risk my heirs are likely taking now.

tt122209 wrote:thank you all again for your knowledge and insight.
I guess this thread morphed into something else entirely, which is not a bad thing.

I think the thread morphed in the right direction for you. In retirement, one of your most pressing financial issues will be tax management and having a supersize Roth accomplishes a lot in that direction. It also helps plan legacy distribution.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by communipaw » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:12 pm

I retired in 2009 as CSRS and I had had a Voluntary Contribution account for many years, contributing $25 a pay period.

As I was about to retire I learned that it was no longer necessary to take the VC out as a lump sum or an annuity when you retired. So I began contributing a lot of money from anything I didn't need to VC. I used Vanguard and OPM rolled the interest from the VC into my TSP and my contributions into Vanguard's Wellesley fund as a ROTH IRA. Things went easily and that was the beginning of the new rules. It should be even easier now.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tarnation » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:15 pm

ChrisC wrote:Not entirely surprising to me. Mike Causey, a former columnist for the Washington Post who covered the Federal workforce, used to annually write a column extolling the benefits of the VCP. He left the Post around a decade ago and no one really writes about this program at the Post or other newspapers. I think the NARFRE (the National Association of Retired Federal Employees occasionally mentions it in its monthly publication. Many of my former colleagues in the DC area who were CSRS know about the program and some have opted out for the additional annuity, too. But I do believe the participation rate among current CSRS folks is very low

Causey is the host of the WFED radio show I linked to above. ^
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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:13 pm

appreciate all of the information on the VCP and we are working through opening accounts now. this will truly benefit us.

aside from the VCP, would still appreciate input on what we can do better or different with our allocation, and whether a Vanguard LifeStrategy Fund is a good option for the VCP money (est around $250-$275k). We could do the 60/40 or 40/60 LifeStrategy....am looking at both and would appreciate any other advice regarding my initial post.

thank you again.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by HIinvestor » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:39 pm

A lot depends on whether you're thinking you may need to withdraw from your Roth and whether you have discipline and interest to balance/rebalance.

Glad you're doing the VCP and Roth. I was glad I did it for H. It really boosted his Roth.

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Re: Two CSR Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please!

Post by tt122209 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:42 pm

i dont think we will need to w/d from roth until we are mandatorily required to do so. same with tsp.
an alternative would be to select a Vanguard Target Retirement Fund that rebalances for us, but if we don't plan to draw on this money i don't see why we would need to rebalance it. if circumstances changed in a decade or more, i would have no problem tweaking the portfolio.

i am really hoping that both Taylor and Laura will chime in with their thoughts as I have read many threads over time with their very streamlined, solid and simplistic advice on allocation and portfolio management.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by ChrisC » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:32 pm

Not sure you need any other advice than posts 2 and 3. You've won the game with your pensions, if you don't need to withdraw funds from your retirement accounts to meet living expenses unless you're going to ramp up your lifestyle! And Roth IRAs are not subject to RMDs. If you are planning on mega luxury purchases within the first 5 years of retirement and not willing to finance them with debt, like buying a luxury FL condo, a sub -zero refrigerator or Tesla car, then maybe it makes sense to be very conservative in your TSP (where you have RMDs) or your taxable accounts so that you aren't subject to significant risk. (You're already terribly conservative in your TSPs with almost all your money in the G-Fund! And you've already indicated that you appear to be unusually risk adverse by pulling out of equities when equities went south a few years ago). I think, as the posts in 2 and 3 above point out, your accounts are more for your heirs. And there's nothing wrong with being having a conservative approach for them, though it's not what I would do.

I also suspect that when you jump in the retirement waters, you'll be challenged in shifting from a savings to spending mode. Most of us are. Take some time now, investigate tax management issues, like tinkering with the idea of converting some funds in your TSP to the Roth IRAs over the next decade to minimize RMD tax issues when you get 70 1/2; see if HDHP-HSA policies make sense for you ( and many Federal employees are clueless about this stuff but there are quite a find Bogleheads here who were Federal employees and who have HSA accounts, which some would say are the best tax deferred accounts around); and look at the Federal Long Term Care Insurance program -- both wife and I have policies with Feds LTC but at this point in time you probably will pay a high premium for them. I've said enuff. Good luck again.

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A few more suggestions

Post by Taylor Larimore » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:30 pm

i am really hoping that both Taylor and Laura will chime in with their thoughts as I have read many threads over time with their very streamlined, solid and simplistic advice on allocation and portfolio management.

tt122209:

You have received many posts containing sound suggestions. Not much I can add although I'll make a few comments:

* I retired as a Federal Employee at age 57. Looking back, it was one of the best decisions we made. Your joint pension is significantly larger than mine.

* The CSRS Voluntary Contributions should be considered. Order this e-book costing $7.97: CSRS Voluntary Contributions. The Best Kept Secret in CSRS.

* The two total market stock funds in your taxable account are excellent tax-efficient funds in a taxable account. If they contain significant capital gains, they should probably be held.

* Your most important decision is to have a stock/bond ratio that you can hold through thick and thin. My fixed-income allocation (including my pension, social security and 2 SPIAs) is the amount I feel is necessary for my minimum standard of living. As a result, the volatility of my stock allocation is almost meaningless.

* I am a strong believer in Target and Life Strategy Funds in tax-advantaged accounts.

* When my wife retired we took a round-the-world cruise on the SS Rotterdam. It remains a highlight of our lives together.

I hope these thoughts are helpful.

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by tt122209 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:45 pm

Thank you all again for your patience... I appreciate all of the insight and input as we transition to retirement.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by Jerry55 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:13 am

On Federal Soup board, there's a long discussion on the VCP - ROTH IRA Conversion, just search the board on it.

Several of us are on that board and this one. I did this from Nov 2011 and completed the transfer in March 2012, so it may take some time.
All of my communications were done Post Office Next day air. Get the paperwork, send to Vanguard as the transfer agent, then send that
paperwork to the VCP. I purchased a book from one of the folks recommended on Federal News Radio. His book, in .pdf format is available online.
I think it's like 7 or 8 bucks. It has all the info you need. This guy is in Alaska, and his name is Micah Shilanski. His website is:

http://www.plan-your-federal-retirement ... tions.html

By the way, this conversion is open to CSRS-OFFSET individuals as well, I believe.
Good Luck. I looked over my CSRS Contributions and just added whatever was listed there over 37 years. Nice 6 figure sum, glad I did, you will be too. :moneybag
Retired 12/19/2012 @ age 57 | Good Bye Tension, Hello Pension !!!

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by HIinvestor » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:58 am

When we did this for H, I wanted to be SURE everything went as smoothly as possible, so we used Schwab, since they have a bricks & mortar store in our area. I went to the broker & explained & we did the paperwork and I made sure it was correct. It took a few months but is nice having a Roth that had more funds than we could have put in it any other way.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by tt122209 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:45 pm

ok, its been two months since i initially wrote and found out about the VCP by sheer accident. over the past two months i have scurried to open and begin funding my VCP and plan to complete the funding of it within the next couple of weeks. since i plan to retire 3 june i know that i must finalize funding it within a couple of weeks, get my RI38-124 filled out and to Vanguard for them to sign, and get the election form to OPM prior to submitting my retirement request.

Has anyone transferred VCP $$ to a Roth at Vanguard? I was given a POC in concierge services who didn't seem to understand this. She told me I need to complete a "rollover kit". Has anyone else done this? I am following all directions in Micah's booklet from my end, but want to be sure that there are no hiccups on the end of Vanguard. As I understand it, all of this VCP transfer must be completed by OPM prior to me submitting my retirement paperwork, is that correct?

My husband had a hiccup in getting his VCP set up as he was temporary for a few months when first hired, so he had to pay back and get that straightened out. His request to open the VCP account is being worked now so hopefully he will get an account number within a couple of weeks and can fund his, then follow what I did. We are both feverishly trying to get the VCPs squared away so we can then submit retirement paperwork.

Any input on helping to assure this transfer/rollover to Vanguard Roth goes off without a hitch would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by communipaw » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:17 pm

I did a rollover from my VC [interest to TSP, contributions to a ROTH IRA through Vanguard] six years ago, just after the procedure was beginning.

I've now forgotten the details of what I did but it involved forms from both the federal OPM/TSP side and from Vanguard. I did have several telephone conversations as I was beginning the process with the OPM office in Boylestown Penn. Unfortunately, the only details I can tell you now were that it was easy, went correctly and did not take a long time.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by ChrisC » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:49 pm

tt122209 wrote: As I understand it, all of this VCP transfer must be completed by OPM prior to me submitting my retirement paperwork, is that correct?

Any input on helping to assure this transfer/rollover to Vanguard Roth goes off without a hitch would be greatly appreciated.


Your understanding does not square with the process I went through in June 2013, when I retired, and October 2013, when funds from my VCP account were transferred. As I recall, your retirement/separation papers include questions on whether you have a VCP account (and to identify your account number) and how you wish to handle that account in retirement. You don't have to transfer your VCP account with your retirement. I don't recall if I filled out RI-38-124 along with my retirement/separation papers -- I don't think I did, but if I did, I would have checked Option 2, which says I need additional information from OPM, after I retire, to make a decision on what I want to do with the VCP. I think you should re-read form RI-38-124. In fact, after you've retired and before your retirement is finalized, you still have a window of opportunity to made further VCP contributions, which I did in July 2013, one month after separation -- I don't know how long that window is open, but I have heard of people making electronic VCP contributions 3 or 4 months after retirement. Be aware that having a VCP account could delay finalization of your retirement annuity. I retired June 29, 2013 and was on interim payments until February 2014, when I was finalized.

I can't help you on the Vanguard side of the transfer. I put in my VCP/RI-38-124 transfer papers, using Wells Fargo, as the rollover custodian in late July 2013. I had an existing tIRA with Wells Fargo Brokerage, and established a separate Roth IRA (with a zero balance) with Wells Fargo a few months before I retired. Wells Fargo simply signed and filled out the certification required by RI-38-124, and did not have any special rollover forms for me to execute. In RI-38-124, I specified that I wanted two checks, one for the deferred interest and the other for the after-tax contributions, delivered to me (and that I would in turn deposit them with Wells). In October, I received two Treasury Checks from the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank made out to Wells Fargo, tIRA and Roth IRA; I went to Wells Fargo and deposited them. Wells Fargo then noted on my accounts that they were rollovers. One word of caution after you've rolled over your VCP -- make sure you get 1099-Rs from OPM in a timely fashion for these rollovers before you file your tax returns in 2016. OPM does not routinely provide the 1099-Rs and I completely forgot about this, when I filed my returns in March 2014; I amended my 2014 returns to reflect the 1099-Rs I belatedly received from OPM, after a frustrating number of calls to OPM about the 1099-Rs.

I think the process when smoothly on the Wells Fargo end because the people who dealt with me there were familiar with the process, as they had many clients in the DC area who were Federal employees or retirees -- this wasn't their first rodeo.

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Re: Two CSRS Fed Employees Retiring 2015 - Need Input Please

Post by Jerry55 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:16 pm

One last thing I didn't mention, or see (maybe I missed it) as my original post is above.....

I retired @ 57 CSRS 2 years ago, and did the VCP to Vanguard ROTH IRA (125K - Wellesley, but I also have 2 other taxable mutual funds), but like you, my pension provides twice as much as I need. I thought about leaving my funds (Still 100 C Fund) for another 6-8 years and rolling it over into a Vanguard acct or annuity, however, looking at their interest rates, I'm starting to think about shifting all assets into the L Income Fund (3%+ return 2014) or G fund (2%+ return 2014) for RMD's. The G Fund will NEVER lose money, and the interest paid, well, you know. I think getting 3-4% on $600,000 - $750,000 (what I hope to have) will be more than sufficient in the future. I'm beginning to believe that more and more, and just go G later.

I think you're all set to go, enjoy !!!


p.s. tt122209 ~

Micah Shilanski's book it absolutely correct, but like some mentioned above,
I pestered OPM until they sent me the 1099 showing a rollover, and I too had so submit an updated tax return
Retired 12/19/2012 @ age 57 | Good Bye Tension, Hello Pension !!!

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