Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
While I do listen once in a while driving it's amazing how bad the investing advice has become on Dave's show and how he never strays from protecting his ELP network relative to mutual funds, fees, and commissions. He is very reluctant to admit that indexing is truly low cost and gives confusing advice as to the benefits of indexing as well as confusing advice as to what he terms " high maintenance fees" within funds thus advising loaded funds that ultimately have higher returns to offset the load. He considers fund costs as the third most important aspect of what he invests in. Really? This advise as we all know is very dangerous to wealth building. If you want to get a good laugh and some reassurance that you are doing the right thing long term go to his web site and go into the archive list and listen to the 1-15-2015 show and specifically half way thru to a call from Dave in Phoenix.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Many Dave Ramsey Threads.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=143975
viewtopic.php?t=69498
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=147006
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=143975
viewtopic.php?t=69498
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=147006
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I think you have to keep in mind his targeted audience: people who have been unable to manage their finances and carry a mountain of high interest rate debt disproportionate to their income. If his advice spurs those folks to start an emergency fund, live within their means, pay off their debts and save money for their kids college and their retirement, then they are many times better off than they were before. The ones who have the capacity to learn more about investing will develop better investing habits while those who don't at least have a practical path to follow that leaves them in a better position than before. The facts show that most Americans are very ignorant when it comes to investing for their future...just to get them to the point where they will is a huge step. I don't advocate Ramsey's advice for me, but I do know do know dozens of people who would be better off following his advice rather than staying on the path they are now following. If I would have had his advice 40 years ago perhaps I would have started on a path to saving sooner rather than later...
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
As repeated here dozens of times, Dave is great on debt management but often (usually) comes up short on actual investment advice. He seems to be pretty good when it comes to real estate investment, but that may be because it's an area that I have little knowledge in.
When he recommends "a good growth mutual fund" I don't think he is really referring to
"growth" as we know how it is used when speaking of investing. I think he is using it in a more generic way, whatever that means.
Still, no need to follow his investment advice.
When he recommends "a good growth mutual fund" I don't think he is really referring to
"growth" as we know how it is used when speaking of investing. I think he is using it in a more generic way, whatever that means.
Still, no need to follow his investment advice.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I can't disagree with this. Look, many of the posters on here were led astray for years before adjusting course, his ideas aren't the worst for that I introduce you to the hall of fame of poor investment advisers (drumroll, please).....Edward Jones, Ameriprise, Mother Merrill Lynch, Smith Barney now Morgan Stanley, insert your favorite fee charging high expense ratio mutual fund company. By and large though, Dave Ramsey does offer very good advice on how to get out of debt and stay out. You can't invest, if you can't save and you can't save if you are constantly charging credit cards up the ying-yang and paying 20%+ interest on top of it. Is his investment advice faulty? - well, directing folks to invest in "growth funds" is semi-directional, but paying sales commissions and high expense ratios is not. If you stop paying interest charges of 20%+, but then fork over 1/3-2/3's of your investment returns in the form of fees and expenses, you really aren't accomplishing all that much.53timr wrote:I think you have to keep in mind his targeted audience: people who have been unable to manage their finances and carry a mountain of high interest rate debt disproportionate to their income. If his advice spurs those folks to start an emergency fund, live within their means, pay off their debts and save money for their kids college and their retirement, then they are many times better off than they were before. The ones who have the capacity to learn more about investing will develop better investing habits while those who don't at least have a practical path to follow that leaves them in a better position than before. The facts show that most Americans are very ignorant when it comes to investing for their future...just to get them to the point where they will is a huge step. I don't advocate Ramsey's advice for me, but I do know do know dozens of people who would be better off following his advice rather than staying on the path they are now following. If I would have had his advice 40 years ago perhaps I would have started on a path to saving sooner rather than later...
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
This may come as a surprise to you, but Dave is in it for the money.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
While he is in it for the $ so am I as a small business owner. He has great advice in becoming debt free and saving for retirement. He has done more for people than just about anyone else that I know.
I love listening to his show. He gives people hope and motivation. I guess I listen to it for more entertainment value at this point. I follow most of his principles like being debt free, but not his investing advice.
But you know what? I think if people followed his investing they'd be better off than doing nothing like so many people I know and be a typical in debt American that saves very little, carries car and credit card debt, etc.
Personally, I praise Dave Ramsey and wish his courses were taught in high school. Maybe most people would know fundamentals like creating a budget, etc.
I love listening to his show. He gives people hope and motivation. I guess I listen to it for more entertainment value at this point. I follow most of his principles like being debt free, but not his investing advice.
But you know what? I think if people followed his investing they'd be better off than doing nothing like so many people I know and be a typical in debt American that saves very little, carries car and credit card debt, etc.
Personally, I praise Dave Ramsey and wish his courses were taught in high school. Maybe most people would know fundamentals like creating a budget, etc.
Last edited by jnet2000 on Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
and Vanguard is not? I've got a bridge to sell you. It's true that Vanguard is the low-cost provider, so is Wal-Mart, you think Wal-Mart is in it to be nice? How about any other low-cost providers (insert here). We are a capitalistic society, the fellows over at Vanguard are making industry standard wages (let me clue you in.... ) and the reason why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming for even lower expense ratios.........mrpotatoheadsays wrote:This may come as a surprise to you, but Dave is in it for the money.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Yep, he hasn't gotten any better on that front.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
And isn't that the paradox of capitalism? That by doing well for yourself, other people benefit?Grt2bOutdoors wrote:and Vanguard is not? I've got a bridge to sell you. It's true that Vanguard is the low-cost provider, so is Wal-Mart, you think Wal-Mart is in it to be nice? How about any other low-cost providers (insert here). We are a capitalistic society, the fellows over at Vanguard are making industry standard wages (let me clue you in.... ) and the reason why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming for even lower expense ratios.........mrpotatoheadsays wrote:This may come as a surprise to you, but Dave is in it for the money.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I would expect that employees of the world's largest MF company to be well compensated. What "shareholders" are you referring to? Vanguard is owned by it's investors isn't it?why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
\mickeyd wrote:I would expect that employees of the world's largest MF company to be well compensated. What "shareholders" are you referring to? Vanguard is owned by it's investors isn't it?why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming
Exactly, by virtue of your investment you are "the shareholder".
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Yes, Vanguard has no more incentive to make excess profit than a Museum or Zoo. Of course they want to make enough money for stability and good salaries, but Vanguard is not a public company so it is not Walmart.mickeyd wrote:I would expect that employees of the world's largest MF company to be well compensated. What "shareholders" are you referring to? Vanguard is owned by it's investors isn't it?why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
It's funny heard that SAME show segment/podcast and I thought about writing a post... And I remember how difficult it is for some bogleheads to accept him. And all it's already been written...
Ramsey delivers better than average advice in an imprecise/inaccurate way; he IMHO has a lot of redeeming qualities in the advice helping far far more than they hurt.
He is all about delivering value to his customers (that makes him money, DOh!). He Is also CLEARLY a type-A Sales and not financial guy.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to make fun of him because he's not changing. He is defensive about this stuff rather than learning/caring BECAUSE HIS ADVICE WORKS (well enough), he can feel good about it as his audience REALLY needs help, and they are upfront about what they do.
It's obvious it's not optimal to DIY Bogleheads.
Personally I would skip all this argument, ** To me it's indisputable evidence that most people cannot/will not handle their own investing & need to pay someone to do it ** His the ELPs are apparently a lot better than the other well-promoted alternatives that are out there commercially advertising themselves.
People: The vast majority of folks are just unwilling to learn what is necessary to get the best deal possible or much worse DIY and sell at the wrong time. Dave has mentioned this or something like it FWIW in the past.
Ramsey delivers better than average advice in an imprecise/inaccurate way; he IMHO has a lot of redeeming qualities in the advice helping far far more than they hurt.
He is all about delivering value to his customers (that makes him money, DOh!). He Is also CLEARLY a type-A Sales and not financial guy.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to make fun of him because he's not changing. He is defensive about this stuff rather than learning/caring BECAUSE HIS ADVICE WORKS (well enough), he can feel good about it as his audience REALLY needs help, and they are upfront about what they do.
It's obvious it's not optimal to DIY Bogleheads.
Personally I would skip all this argument, ** To me it's indisputable evidence that most people cannot/will not handle their own investing & need to pay someone to do it ** His the ELPs are apparently a lot better than the other well-promoted alternatives that are out there commercially advertising themselves.
People: The vast majority of folks are just unwilling to learn what is necessary to get the best deal possible or much worse DIY and sell at the wrong time. Dave has mentioned this or something like it FWIW in the past.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I listened to him intermittently on IHeartRadio for a year and never realized he was promoting much other than get out of debt advice. I would say over 95% of his show is about getting out of debt. If all were to do it, getting out of debt would be more beneficial to society than than the harm in implementing any particular retirement savings strategy.
Those doing the debt free scream are listeners who tend to make above average salaries, just like the majority of bogleheads. They are primed to be poached to the boglehead way of thinking. A pitch could be, "Congratulations for getting out of debt. You are now ready to start investing in a way to maximize your money. Please come to bogleheads.org for more information."
Those doing the debt free scream are listeners who tend to make above average salaries, just like the majority of bogleheads. They are primed to be poached to the boglehead way of thinking. A pitch could be, "Congratulations for getting out of debt. You are now ready to start investing in a way to maximize your money. Please come to bogleheads.org for more information."
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I (like you, I assume) have no direct knowledge of the wages at vanguard, but from my findings online, the majority of their employees are not well paid. They may be making "industry standard wages" but the person who answers our phone calls is not living lavish by any means.Grt2bOutdoors wrote:and Vanguard is not? I've got a bridge to sell you. It's true that Vanguard is the low-cost provider, so is Wal-Mart, you think Wal-Mart is in it to be nice? How about any other low-cost providers (insert here). We are a capitalistic society, the fellows over at Vanguard are making industry standard wages (let me clue you in.... ) and the reason why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming for even lower expense ratios.........mrpotatoheadsays wrote:This may come as a surprise to you, but Dave is in it for the money.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Regarding DR, yes, his investment advise and support for "ELP's" is bad as we see it. However, for the other 99% of Americans who have no idea about bogleheads, DR is most likely going to be better than a random EJ "advisor."
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Which, of course, is not justification for not taking Dave Ramsey to task over his horrible advice. The "...likely going to be better off..." argument assumes a win-win for everybody involved. This is not a win-win. This is a loss for the investor, they'll just lose by ever so slightly less than they would have otherwise. Being above-average doesn't mean anything when the average is so bad, which is the same problem I have when HR argues, "well, our 401k is above-average so we aren't going to change it." Above-average crap is still crap.WHL wrote:Regarding DR, yes, his investment advise and support for "ELP's" is bad as we see it. However, for the other 99% of Americans who have no idea about bogleheads, DR is most likely going to be better than a random EJ "advisor."
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
So, it's okay to give bad advice, as long as its a little better than the advice (or lack thereof) that someone is currently using. That's a pretty low threshold.53timr wrote:I think you have to keep in mind his targeted audience: people who have been unable to manage their finances and carry a mountain of high interest rate debt disproportionate to their income. If his advice spurs those folks to start an emergency fund, live within their means, pay off their debts and save money for their kids college and their retirement, then they are many times better off than they were before. The ones who have the capacity to learn more about investing will develop better investing habits while those who don't at least have a practical path to follow that leaves them in a better position than before. The facts show that most Americans are very ignorant when it comes to investing for their future...just to get them to the point where they will is a huge step. I don't advocate Ramsey's advice for me, but I do know do know dozens of people who would be better off following his advice rather than staying on the path they are now following. If I would have had his advice 40 years ago perhaps I would have started on a path to saving sooner rather than later...
Steve
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I can't listen to 30 minutes of the show without hearing at least one instance of terrible advice.
He recently advised someone needing individual health insurance to go directly to insurance companies and go not go through the ACA exchange because that route was "too much government". I've also heard him advise a young person to defer going to college until they could pay 100% cash for it in a situation where parents were not willing or able to provide financial support.
He recently advised someone needing individual health insurance to go directly to insurance companies and go not go through the ACA exchange because that route was "too much government". I've also heard him advise a young person to defer going to college until they could pay 100% cash for it in a situation where parents were not willing or able to provide financial support.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
+1MnD wrote:I can't listen to 30 minutes of the show without hearing at least one instance of terrible advice.
He recently advised someone needing individual health insurance to go directly to insurance companies and go not go through the ACA exchange because that route was "too much government". I've also heard him advise a young person to defer going to college until they could pay 100% cash for it in a situation where parents were not willing or able to provide financial support.
Dave often uses the phrase that people can't see past their politics. I find that very funny because I think he is caught in the same trap. I heard the call the OP was talking about and at one point he suggested that people pushing index funds have some sort of political agenda. This was not the quote but it was something to that effect.
He is so anti government that he will give bad advice even if it could help the caller. The above post is a perfect example of that which he does quite often.
I first heard Dave, many, many years ago and he reminded me of this folksy guy who was a breath of fresh air by talking to regular folks about personal finance. However, after all these years, I now see him as somewhat of a bully who has no tolerance for anyone who has a different point-of-view. I saw him live in NYC many years ago, and I wasn't impressed at all. I also got on as a caller and due to the fact I had most of my ducks in order there wasn't much he could tell me.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
+2stemikger wrote:+1MnD wrote:I can't listen to 30 minutes of the show without hearing at least one instance of terrible advice.
He recently advised someone needing individual health insurance to go directly to insurance companies and go not go through the ACA exchange because that route was "too much government". I've also heard him advise a young person to defer going to college until they could pay 100% cash for it in a situation where parents were not willing or able to provide financial support.
Dave often uses the phrase that people can't see past their politics. I find that very funny because I think he is caught in the same trap. I heard the call the OP was talking about and at one point he suggested that people pushing index funds have some sort of political agenda. This was not the quote but it was something to that effect.
He is so anti government that he will give bad advice even if it could help the caller. The above post is a perfect example of that which he does quite often.
I first heard Dave, many, many years ago and he reminded me of this folksy guy who was a breath of fresh air by talking to regular folks about personal finance. However, after all these years, I now see him as somewhat of a bully who has no tolerance for anyone who has a different point-of-view. I saw him live in NYC many years ago, and I wasn't impressed at all. I also got on as a caller and due to the fact I had most of my ducks in order there wasn't much he could tell me.
I used to listen to Bob Brinker for years. As this thread indicates each radio show host has different parts that fit with boglehead philosophy. Brinker, for example has long advocated low cost, index funds with both Vanguard and TIAA CREf. But his timing strategy and his newsletter, I just ignore.
The programs which comes the closest, IMO, is https://www.ifa.com/, and DFA http://us.dimensional.com/ but they refer people to their AUM advisers and they don't have a national radio program like Dave Ramsey and Brinker. Dave's political rant absolutely turns me off! But as others mentioned, he helps people with living within their means and he celebrates with his listeners who have paid off their debts. That's good stuff.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Probably should weigh in; my post would have been more accurate if I said his bad "investing" advise was at an all time high!! I do agree with his teaching of debt management and living within your means and saving money. I also agree that even bad investing advice is a good start for most people. Saving money is certainly the first step to investing and to growing wealth. I also fully understand he has to dance around the indexing issue in general (I always get a kick out of how his tone of voice changes as he addresses issues that may not match his beliefs) as to not compromise his ELP network. I'll never know, but would like to know how much he gets paid from an ELP and what it costs one to be one?
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
It is amazing the market exist to tell people to live within their means and pay what the owe. I don't believe thee ole calling his show as they sound like product testimonial. His audiences always seem to find magical cash to pay down debts and start massive saving. His snow ball effect is wack.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Yes, in theory....sometimes it's harder to see the benefit with some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them. But I digress....bberris wrote:And isn't that the paradox of capitalism? That by doing well for yourself, other people benefit?Grt2bOutdoors wrote:and Vanguard is not? I've got a bridge to sell you. It's true that Vanguard is the low-cost provider, so is Wal-Mart, you think Wal-Mart is in it to be nice? How about any other low-cost providers (insert here). We are a capitalistic society, the fellows over at Vanguard are making industry standard wages (let me clue you in.... ) and the reason why it's not disclosed to shareholders is if you really knew just how well they were compensated, you'd be screaming for even lower expense ratios.........mrpotatoheadsays wrote:This may come as a surprise to you, but Dave is in it for the money.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Funny this is exactly what my wife and I did. You would be amazed once you go from no budgeting or loosely budgeting each month to being on a written budget how much extra cash you find.Prague wrote:It is amazing the market exist to tell people to live within their means and pay what the owe. I don't believe thee ole calling his show as they sound like product testimonial. His audiences always seem to find magical cash to pay down debts and start massive saving. His snow ball effect is wack.
As to the snoball If you go from blowing you cash each pay period to I'm paying off that $400 car payment this year, then once the car payment is gone you suddenly have an extra $400 in your pocket. So you can either spend that $400 or roll it to the next debt.
It really does work if you have the discipline to stick to it and live below your means.
One thing I have heard him say over and over is to educate yourself when you start inventing. Don't invest in anything you don't fully understand. In my case that led me here. People on this message board really are the minority in the country, most people dont have the means (living paycheck to paycheck) and dont have the time to sit down and really understand investing. So they leave it upto others and are perfectly happy to do so.
Most boggleheads have a fundamental difference in investment philosophy then Dr, does that make him wrong and us write? I'm not sure it does for 100% of the country. I bet at the end of the day boggleheads and DR agree on more then they disagree on.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
What makes you say that?WHL wrote:DR is most likely going to be better than a random EJ "advisor."
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Good advice, bad advice...it's all relative. Compared to spending every dime of your paycheck and being neck deep in debt, I think Ramsey's message is good advice. But for most of the people on this board his investing ideas would be bad advice. There are highly trained financial professionals out there who give much worse advice to people every day.SteveM wrote:So, it's okay to give bad advice, as long as its a little better than the advice (or lack thereof) that someone is currently using. That's a pretty low threshold.53timr wrote:I think you have to keep in mind his targeted audience: people who have been unable to manage their finances and carry a mountain of high interest rate debt disproportionate to their income. If his advice spurs those folks to start an emergency fund, live within their means, pay off their debts and save money for their kids college and their retirement, then they are many times better off than they were before. The ones who have the capacity to learn more about investing will develop better investing habits while those who don't at least have a practical path to follow that leaves them in a better position than before. The facts show that most Americans are very ignorant when it comes to investing for their future...just to get them to the point where they will is a huge step. I don't advocate Ramsey's advice for me, but I do know do know dozens of people who would be better off following his advice rather than staying on the path they are now following. If I would have had his advice 40 years ago perhaps I would have started on a path to saving sooner rather than later...
“I take my investment advice from my dentist, because he’s just as likely to lose me money as a financial advisor.” |
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
How does WalMart hurt their employees? How do they hurt the government?some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
They hurt their employees by paying them low wages. They hurt the government by needing and qualifying for government assistance due to those low wages thus contributing to the government debt.mickeyd wrote:How does WalMart hurt their employees? How do they hurt the government?some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
If his show gets someone to reduce debt and increase investing it is worthwhile. Bogleheads are a ridiculously small portion of the market and the view here is very jaded. For the average American, Dave Ramsey's advise is likely better than if they were to come here directly - these people would look at what we discuss and become extremely frustrated.KyleAAA wrote:Which, of course, is not justification for not taking Dave Ramsey to task over his horrible advice. The "...likely going to be better off..." argument assumes a win-win for everybody involved. This is not a win-win. This is a loss for the investor, they'll just lose by ever so slightly less than they would have otherwise. Being above-average doesn't mean anything when the average is so bad, which is the same problem I have when HR argues, "well, our 401k is above-average so we aren't going to change it." Above-average crap is still crap.WHL wrote:Regarding DR, yes, his investment advise and support for "ELP's" is bad as we see it. However, for the other 99% of Americans who have no idea about bogleheads, DR is most likely going to be better than a random EJ "advisor."
Of course there are better options than DR's "ELP's," but it is a very good push in the right direction for those who need said push.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Because by following DR, they will at least be trained to establish a fixed budget and practice proper financial fundamentals.ObliviousInvestor wrote:What makes you say that?WHL wrote:DR is most likely going to be better than a random EJ "advisor."
Yes, his investing side could be better, but from personal experiences with "advisors" employed at such firms as EJ, I stand by my statement.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Probably be a good idea for some to take a step back on this.You cannot compare Dave Ramsey to the Boglehead thinking.Thats like 1st grade to a thesis.
For the majority of spendthrift uneducated Americans,Dave Ramsey can give them a START on their financial voyage.That start is one hell of a long way from the discipline of most here on this board.That START is getting out of debt.I really don't listen to Dave much, however what I have heard that is his 1st goal.You cannot invest with a mountain of debt
For the majority of spendthrift uneducated Americans,Dave Ramsey can give them a START on their financial voyage.That start is one hell of a long way from the discipline of most here on this board.That START is getting out of debt.I really don't listen to Dave much, however what I have heard that is his 1st goal.You cannot invest with a mountain of debt
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
SpringMan wrote:They hurt their employees by paying them low wages. They hurt the government by needing and qualifying for government assistance due to those low wages thus contributing to the government debt.mickeyd wrote:How does WalMart hurt their employees? How do they hurt the government?some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them.
You don't really believe that do you?
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Not the poster of this, but I think I do. But it's likely straying a bit too far into the political range so will likely get this blocked.mickeyd wrote:SpringMan wrote:They hurt their employees by paying them low wages. They hurt the government by needing and qualifying for government assistance due to those low wages thus contributing to the government debt.mickeyd wrote:How does WalMart hurt their employees? How do they hurt the government?some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them.
You don't really believe that do you?
I'll say this: there is an argument to be made (and I think that Henry Ford championed) that the companies have an obligation to provide their workers with a living wage. By not providing such a wage, workers can be trapped in a never-ending cycle of having to simultaneously work too many hours, still need $$ from the social safety net, and do not have the time to improve themselves to get out of their current conditions. Thus, harming workers AND the government.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I think the college kids got a hold of this thread.ryman554 wrote:Not the poster of this, but I think I do. But it's likely straying a bit too far into the political range so will likely get this blocked.mickeyd wrote:SpringMan wrote:They hurt their employees by paying them low wages. They hurt the government by needing and qualifying for government assistance due to those low wages thus contributing to the government debt.mickeyd wrote:How does WalMart hurt their employees? How do they hurt the government?some companies like WalMart that hurt their employees as well as the government hand that feeds them.
You don't really believe that do you?
I'll say this: there is an argument to be made (and I think that Henry Ford championed) that the companies have an obligation to provide their workers with a living wage. By not providing such a wage, workers can be trapped in a never-ending cycle of having to simultaneously work too many hours, still need $$ from the social safety net, and do not have the time to improve themselves to get out of their current conditions. Thus, harming workers AND the government.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
If by college kids, you really mean 60+ year old pensioner (who is not myself, but who I was discussing this very subject with not too long ago), then yes.BogleMe wrote: I think the college kids got a hold of this thread.
Lets agree to disagree before this gets locked.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
It really is a shame there isn't an off topic subforum where this could be discussed further.BogleMe wrote:ryman554 wrote:mickeyd wrote:I think the college kids got a hold of this thread.
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Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
It's a shame a moderator (is there any?) hasn't locked this and all DR threads as all of this hate isn't good for the soul.wcmFun wrote:It really is a shame there isn't an off topic subforum where this could be discussed further.BogleMe wrote:ryman554 wrote:mickeyd wrote:I think the college kids got a hold of this thread.
70% AVGE | 20% FXNAX | 10% T-Bill/Muni
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
Except for getting sidetracked on Walmart, this thread, like most DR threads, does contain some useful information for people who might not be aware of some of the pros and cons of DR's recommendations.
Re: Dave Ramsey's bad advice at an all time high!
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Several years ago my wife and I were drowning in high-interest debt, barely getting by paycheck to paycheck, and well on the road to bankruptcy. One of my wife's coworkers introduced her to Dave Ramsey, and I grudgingly agreed to read his book and try following his advice to get out of debt. It worked for us! we tracked expenses for a couple of months and found a few hundred dollars a month that we were just blowing, mostly eating out and impulse buys. We used that to start the "snowball" and ended up paying off over $35K in debt in a little over a year, which allowed us to start saving some money. Then I went looking for ways to start investing for retirement and found the Bogleheads.53timr wrote:I think you have to keep in mind his targeted audience: people who have been unable to manage their finances and carry a mountain of high interest rate debt disproportionate to their income. If his advice spurs those folks to start an emergency fund, live within their means, pay off their debts and save money for their kids college and their retirement, then they are many times better off than they were before. The ones who have the capacity to learn more about investing will develop better investing habits while those who don't at least have a practical path to follow that leaves them in a better position than before. The facts show that most Americans are very ignorant when it comes to investing for their future...just to get them to the point where they will is a huge step. I don't advocate Ramsey's advice for me, but I do know do know dozens of people who would be better off following his advice rather than staying on the path they are now following. If I would have had his advice 40 years ago perhaps I would have started on a path to saving sooner rather than later...
I think that deep down we knew the things that seem obvious to many people, like budgeting, living below your means, and saving for major purchases instead of just "putting them on the credit card" were what we should be doing, but we didn't practice them until we were spurred on by listening to Dave.
Unfortunately, once we got through most of our debt and got some breathing room, we stopped the aggressive paydown and even let ourselves build up more debt, but never to the point that it put us into living paycheck to paycheck like before. But we have just recently made the decision to finish the debt off so that we can focus on saving for retirement. And now, thanks to Dave, we know how to do it and that we can actually do it, since we've done it before.
I know that Dave gets a bad rap here sometimes, and his investing advice isn't good, but he helped motivate us and I'm sure many others like us to become fiscally responsible and have a shot at retiring with more than just social security.
-Dave