Medallion Signature Guarantee

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Cash
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Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Cash » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:24 am

I want to transfer a couple of accounts to Vanguard, but Vanguard is asking me to get a medallion signature guarantee. I do all of my banking online and find this very annoying. Does anyone have experience circumventing this requirement? Will they reject the forms if I send them without the guarantee?

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JamesSFO
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by JamesSFO » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:28 am

Likely rejected, it provides them some protections against fraud since the signing bank is taking financial responsibility for [edit - some] fraud.

simpsonlang
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by simpsonlang » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:38 am

This could occur because the Vanguard account information has some minor difference to the brokerage your transferring from. Something as simple as using a middle initial instead of the full middle name can trigger it so I would closely compare the two accounts and make sure the name and address match 100%.

Cash
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Cash » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:50 am

simpsonlang wrote:This could occur because the Vanguard account information has some minor difference to the brokerage your transferring from. Something as simple as using a middle initial instead of the full middle name can trigger it so I would closely compare the two accounts and make sure the name and address match 100%.


Well this is occurring before Vanguard even contacts the other institution. I am trying to initiate the transfer through Vanguard, and they say that they need me to sign the forms and get the guarantee before they will process the transfer (note: this was not required for certain other accounts that I transferred, so it appears that VG has an agreement with some institutions not to require one).

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TheGreyingDuke
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by TheGreyingDuke » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:52 am

When I signed up for the voice is my password option at VG, it was explicitly to minimize the need for medallion guarntees, since I am in China for months at a stretch. It has worked out very well, you might want to investigate to see if it could ease your pain.
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simpsonlang
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by simpsonlang » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:56 am

I have a brokerage I transferred 4 accounts (two Roths and two Trad IRA between the wife and I). One of the first two accounts in my name required a medallion signature but the second didn't. The wife's didn't need medallion for either. After looking at the paperwork I noticed my Roth had an initial while the Trad had the full initial. It's possible it triggered for some other reason, i.e. the first transfer from that brokerage however I would of thought the same would have applied with my wife.

Browser
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Browser » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:02 pm

Treasury Direct also requires a medallion signature guarantee to change your linked bank account, or make other changes. Had to do this for my mother's TD account and it was a pain. You can do it at a bank, but not all branches can provide it. Need a certain level bank officer who has access to the mystical medallion stamp. Since the medallion signature puts the bank on the hook for the moneys involved, they can require an account and/or that adequate funds are on deposit. You'll just have to wander into a brick-and-mortar bank and find out.
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donall
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by donall » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:06 pm

Medallion signature guarantee is used to authenticate that the person signing the paperwork is really the person that is signing, that is used for transfer of securities. It's a good thing to have and usually required. That is one reason to have a bricks and mortar bank, as most banks will provide the service without a fee.

Cash
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Cash » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Seems like a simple notary would suffice for that. Regardless, I called VG, and they said that this was not their requirement but instead a requirement of the transferring institutions because they do not participate in ACATS (Options House and Sharebuilder, for the record). Vanguard offered to google and contact local institutions that offer the service, but I told them I would do that myself (my wife is checking to see if her old BOA account is still active). Note to self to research this before signing up for brokerage transfer bonuses again!

simpsonlang
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by simpsonlang » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:33 pm

Cash wrote:Seems like a simple notary would suffice for that.


When I got my medallion I understood a notary is not the same thing. Typically a banks branch manager has the ability to do this but a Notary will more than likely be rejected.

Browser
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Browser » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 pm

As I said, I recall that the medallion actually puts the bank on the hook for moneys involved. A notary does not. Big difference -- at least to the bank.
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Calm Man
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Calm Man » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:47 pm

donall wrote:Medallion signature guarantee is used to authenticate that the person signing the paperwork is really the person that is signing, that is used for transfer of securities. It's a good thing to have and usually required. That is one reason to have a bricks and mortar bank, as most banks will provide the service without a fee.

This.

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prudent
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by prudent » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:22 pm

Also, expect to have to bring a recent statement with you for the account you are transferring. Each bank official who can do a Medallion Signature Guarantee has a certain dollar amount he/she is authorized to sign for - so the person will need to see how much is in the account.

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mephistophles
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by mephistophles » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:43 pm

Medallion guarantees are standard procedure in the securities business. Notary is not the same thing. We get ours free at our local banking institution. If you don't have one, call ahead and see what they will probably charge you.

TheExMexican
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by TheExMexican » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:44 pm

I just went through this about three months ago. Here is how I did it:

I went to my credit union, and although they could do the Medallion signature guarantee, their limit was very low. While I was in the branch manager's office, she called around to other banks to see who would do it for us. Most banks required me to have an account with them for at least six months before I could get the signature guarantee. The one exception was Bank of America.

They said "as long as you have an account with us, we will do it for you". I replied "Do you mean to tell me if I go over right now and open a checking account, you will sign my papers?" ..."Yep"...

So, I left my credit union with a cashier's check in hand and went over to the Bank of America branch to open a checking account and get my signature guarantee. They required two forms of ID (one of which could be a credit card) and the Vanguard forms to sign. Nothing else.

I've had some very bad experiences with BofA in the past, so I closed the account a month later, but was very grateful for their service :D

By the way, in my case, it is my understanding the Medallion signature guarantee is not a requirement from Vanguard, but rather it comes from the institution you are transferring out of. It is a major pain, but on the other hand, it also makes it at least a little harder for someone else to transfer your entire life savings out of your account just by filling out a form.

Good Luck!
TheExMex

leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:45 pm

When I transferred to VG - I specifically asked them if they ever required a signature guarantee to transfer securities out OR for any other reason. I checked that fact 3 times and they affirmed each time that they did NOT require one.

So, either they changed their policy OR they have given you miss information.

I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

scrabbler1
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by scrabbler1 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:29 pm

Back in 2008 I needed a Medallion Signature Guarantee because I was having more than $100k transferred from my 401k plan to my local bank's checking account via ACH (a requirement of the 401k plan administrator, not the bank I was transferring it into). It was a minor ordeal for some fluky reasons but I got it done. The bank manager needed to see not just the page she would place her bank's (BofA) special stamp on but the whole package of ~10 pages so she could see the context of the transaction.

Once I had this done, the transfer went through quickly and routinely in a few days after the 401k plan admin received the forms.

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nisiprius
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by nisiprius » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:41 pm

leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
Well, it isn't Vanguard that's requiring it. And I know it's not Vanguard because I've made Fidelity<->Vanguard transfers, both ways, without it.
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by gavinman » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:14 pm

I'm going through the hassle of obtaining a Medallion Signature Guarantee now to transfer an inherited IRA to Vanguard. I went to a branch of my bank by my office. They reviewed the paperwork and said I needed a death certificate for my mom who I inherited the IRA from. She died 10 years ago! I tried to explain that to him and that it's an inherited IRA that's why it is titled that way. He said, sorry I need the death certificate.

So on the way home I went the the branch by my house. No problems there, they reviewed and stamped it.

What's funny is they make a big deal about reviewing the paperwork, checking the amounts, and making copies for their files, but the signature page doesn't have any account information on it. I could attach that page to a different IRA transfer packet and use it for a larger amount or different account.

It seems there should be a better way or more training is needed for the people who offer this service.

leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:13 pm

nisiprius wrote:
leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
Well, it isn't Vanguard that's requiring it. And I know it's not Vanguard because I've made Fidelity<->Vanguard transfers, both ways, without it.


Well OP indicated "Vanguard was requiring it." So, either the OP is mistaken or VG has added the Med. Signature Guarantee since I set my accounts up a while ago. I assume the OP will clarify.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

sport
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by sport » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:36 pm

leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
The US Treasury required a medallion guarantee when I redeemed paper savings bonds.
Last edited by sport on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HueyLD
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by HueyLD » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:51 pm

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Last edited by HueyLD on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

almeida
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by almeida » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:48 pm

Cash wrote: Regardless, I called VG, and they said that this was not their requirement but instead a requirement of the transferring institutions because they do not participate in ACATS (Options House and Sharebuilder, for the record).


If you have a Capital One 360 (formerly ING Direct) account, transfer the Sharebuilder assets to Capital One 360 first and then over to Vanguard next. That's how I did my transfers last year when I started Bogling. Doing it that way had two nice benefits. First, Sharebuilder charged a fee to close an account, but it was waived if you liquidated the funds to ING Drect. ING Direct, meanwhile, didn't change any fees no matter where you transferred. Also, Sharebuilder required the medallion signature to go to Vanguard but not to go to ING Direct. And, ING Direct didn't require it no matter where the funds went. Things may have changed since they switched to Capital One 360, so you should double check. I saved a couple bucks on the account closing fees plus I spared myself the indignity of actually walking into a bank.

fabdog
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by fabdog » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:46 pm

as a previous poster mentioned... get them to sign you up for the "my voice is my password" program. I wasn't aware they had this service till I needed Medallion to change account registration. my credit union wouldn't do it (too much money). When I called Vanguard back and said I guessed I'd have to move the money over to Schwab since they didn't require this... I was introduced to "my voice is my password"

Took aboutr a week to set up... now whenever I call it does the voice check and I am all set...

leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:56 pm

jsl11 wrote:
leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.

The US Treasury required a medallion guarantee when I redeemed paper savings bonds.
Jeff


Looks like I won't be transacting with the treasury.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

Cash
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Cash » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:08 pm

fabdog wrote:as a previous poster mentioned... get them to sign you up for the "my voice is my password" program. I wasn't aware they had this service till I needed Medallion to change account registration. my credit union wouldn't do it (too much money). When I called Vanguard back and said I guessed I'd have to move the money over to Schwab since they didn't require this... I was introduced to "my voice is my password"

Took aboutr a week to set up... now whenever I call it does the voice check and I am all set...


Does that apply to transfers from brokerages that require a medallion signature guarantee? My current understanding is that is what the problem was.

TheExMexican wrote:So, I left my credit union with a cashier's check in hand and went over to the Bank of America branch to open a checking account and get my signature guarantee. They required two forms of ID (one of which could be a credit card) and the Vanguard forms to sign. Nothing else.


This is what I was prepared to do, but it looks like my wife's account is still active, so I will go there some time this week.

leonard wrote:
nisiprius wrote:
leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
Well, it isn't Vanguard that's requiring it. And I know it's not Vanguard because I've made Fidelity<->Vanguard transfers, both ways, without it.


Well OP indicated "Vanguard was requiring it." So, either the OP is mistaken or VG has added the Med. Signature Guarantee since I set my accounts up a while ago. I assume the OP will clarify.


I meant that Vanguard's forms required a medallion signature guarantee, but as I stated earlier, it appears that Vanguard is just passing on the requirement of the transferring institution. That said, I do recall Vanguard itself requiring one for outbound wire transfers. I just looked the form up online to verify that, and I still see the requirement: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/ElfPDF ... 7572647582

almeida wrote:If you have a Capital One 360 (formerly ING Direct) account, transfer the Sharebuilder assets to Capital One 360 first and then over to Vanguard next.


The problem is that it's a taxable account and I have a fair amount of gains since I first invested. I thought about just eating the taxes, but it's not quite worth it.

gavinman wrote:What's funny is they make a big deal about reviewing the paperwork, checking the amounts, and making copies for their files, but the signature page doesn't have any account information on it. I could attach that page to a different IRA transfer packet and use it for a larger amount or different account.

It seems there should be a better way or more training is needed for the people who offer this service.


Exactly. It seems like an obstacle whose primary point is to make it more difficult to transfer assets. If identity verification is that important, there are less cumbersome ways to do so. This seems to be a relic of a bygone era. Hopefully the medallion signature guarantee will go the way of passbooks and such...

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kramer
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by kramer » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:44 am

jsl11 wrote:
leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.

The US Treasury required a medallion guarantee when I redeemed paper savings bonds.
Jeff

Ouch, I have some paper I-bonds although I won't be cashing them in for 17 more years or so. Can your provide any more details? Were you doing it by mail, transferring them to online, etc?

For me, a Medallion requirement is almost insurmountable. I live abroad and have no brick and mortar banks where I ordinarily visit. I once contacted Schwab (one of my brokerages) about this because I thought I would need one on a trip to the USA (turns out I didn't) but they said they would not do it if they are not a party in the transaction.

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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by shorvath » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:56 am

Currently trying to get a TreasuryDirect account authorization form signed. Went to bank branch (PNC), and was left with their "investment advisor" while the branch manager made some calls "to find out" if they could put a signature on it. When it became clear that I was not enraptured by the advisor's thoughts on actively managed investments, he went to find the bank manager, and suddenly, they couldn't sign the form now, but they would call in a couple of days once they got more information. Might try another branch later today...
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sport
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by sport » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:57 am

kramer wrote:
jsl11 wrote:
leonard wrote:I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.
The US Treasury required a medallion guarantee when I redeemed paper savings bonds.
Jeff
Ouch, I have some paper I-bonds although I won't be cashing them in for 17 more years or so. Can your provide any more details? Were you doing it by mail, transferring them to online, etc?
Since paper savings bonds are being phased out, it seems the rules keep changing. You have to deal with the Treasury Dept. rules and also the rules of the bank where you wish to cash them. For example, my primary bank will no longer cash any savings bonds, but my S&L will cash them.

My particular experience was with some HH bonds. It turns out that the Treasury rules now prevent any bank from cashing those. Even this was a little more complicated than I expected. I asked about doing it at one bank, and they told me the bonds had to be mailed in (correct) and then gave me the wrong address to send them. The savings bond redemption office used to be in Pittsburgh. When I redeemed the bonds last year, it was in Minneapolis. Although it was not required, I sent the bonds by certified mail so I could track the delivery, and I made photocopies of them in case they got lost.

For HH bonds redemption, you have to go to the savings bond web site, and download a form. The form has all the information on where and how to send the bonds. However, when you sign the back of the bond for redemption, it also has to have the medallion signature guarantee stamp. So, you still have to go to a bank and sign the bonds in their presence. Some banks will mail the bonds to the Treasury for you; my bank would not. The redemption form also requires you to give information on your bank account because the Treasury sends the money by direct deposit. They do not send a check in the mail.

Since the medallion guarantee involves liability on the part of the bank for the amount of the transaction, I found that you can only go to a bank where you have an account. Other banks don't "know you" and therefore cannot agree to be liable for the amount of your transaction should it turn out that you are attempting a scam.
Last edited by sport on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nrynn
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by nrynn » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:50 pm

I was in a similar situation lately where I was wanting to transfer some assets from CapitalOne Sharebuilder to Vanguard. I too had only online banks and getting a signature guarantee was too painful. I resigned to liquidating some holding (I had less than 10K) and cashing out. You then have 60 days to deposit that amount into the other Roth IRA. The entire process takes 2-4 business days, much faster than a trustee-to-trustee (direct) transfer.

Here is a useful and very straightforward writeup on this transfer issue:
https://www.betterment.com/resources/retirement/401ks-and-iras/indirect-rollover-ira-cash-out/

BTW, it was Sharebuilder which wanted a medallion signature guarantee, not Vanguard. I guess the institution currently holding the assets would need a MSG.

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SpringMan
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by SpringMan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:12 pm

If it is just a matter of middle initial vs spelled out middle name, Vanguard will process without the medallion signature. I thought I would need the medallion signature, called Vanguard and I was allowed to go forward without it. Everything was done online.
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JamesSFO
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by JamesSFO » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:29 pm

I find I have great luck with medallion guarantees by playing a bit dumb, "I'm not really sure what this is for" or "I was told I need this but it's not a notary" and never had a problem. YMMV.

DrChronzworth
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by DrChronzworth » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:31 pm

leonard wrote:When I transferred to VG - I specifically asked them if they ever required a signature guarantee to transfer securities out OR for any other reason. I checked that fact 3 times and they affirmed each time that they did NOT require one.

So, either they changed their policy OR they have given you miss information.

I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.


It depends on the type of account and the type of transfer. Different types of transfers have different requirements. Also, different companies have different requirements for moving their money out. Some companies require MSGs for every type of out-going transfer. Some require it if the amount of the transfer is over a certain amount. Some only require it if the names on the accounts don't match. Some don't require them.

In general, IRA transfers between accounts where Vanguard is acting as the Transfer Agent (i.e. the old mutual fund only account) or something like T. Rowe Price's accounts are a bit more flexible than IRA transfers between broker/dealers (i.e. the old VBS accounts & the new upgraded VBS accounts). This is due to the higher regulatory requirements for broker/dealers compared to transfer agents.

In-kind transfers between broker/dealers are almost always going to require a MSG as well if the names don't match on the accounts.

Transfers and MSG can be complicated. If there's ever a question, you'll want to clarify if this is a requirement of the in-coming institution or the out-going institution. 9/10 it will be the out-going institution's requirement. The reason the incoming institution is asking for it is because they don't want you to fill out a bunch of paperwork and then have it be rejected because it didn't have a MSG.

toto238
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by toto238 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:42 pm

Sign up for Voice Verification. The number of times you'll need a Signature Guarantee goes down to close to zero. Highly recommended.

Seriously. You may never need to get another signature guarantee again.


I imagine in the case of transferring money into VG from another institution, VG itself probably stamps it with a sig guar if you pass Voice Verification.

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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Derby » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:04 pm

I went through this hassle at Vanguard when I made a new living trust, rather than update my old one. They told me I needed a Medallion Guarantee even though all I was doing was transferring the assets from me as trustee for my old trust, to me as trustee for my new trust! After getting quite frustrated calling around and not finding anyone that would do this for me, I called Vanguard back and pointed out how utterly ridiculous it was to require this of someone who had had a Vanguard account for 25 years, especially when the ownership was not truly changing hands. I was fortunately able to get someone with enough authority to see the light, and they waived the requirement for me.
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leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:31 pm

DrChronzworth wrote:
leonard wrote:When I transferred to VG - I specifically asked them if they ever required a signature guarantee to transfer securities out OR for any other reason. I checked that fact 3 times and they affirmed each time that they did NOT require one.

So, either they changed their policy OR they have given you miss information.

I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.


It depends on the type of account and the type of transfer. Different types of transfers have different requirements. Also, different companies have different requirements for moving their money out. Some companies require MSGs for every type of out-going transfer. Some require it if the amount of the transfer is over a certain amount. Some only require it if the names on the accounts don't match. Some don't require them.

In general, IRA transfers between accounts where Vanguard is acting as the Transfer Agent (i.e. the old mutual fund only account) or something like T. Rowe Price's accounts are a bit more flexible than IRA transfers between broker/dealers (i.e. the old VBS accounts & the new upgraded VBS accounts). This is due to the higher regulatory requirements for broker/dealers compared to transfer agents.

In-kind transfers between broker/dealers are almost always going to require a MSG as well if the names don't match on the accounts.

Transfers and MSG can be complicated. If there's ever a question, you'll want to clarify if this is a requirement of the in-coming institution or the out-going institution. 9/10 it will be the out-going institution's requirement. The reason the incoming institution is asking for it is because they don't want you to fill out a bunch of paperwork and then have it be rejected because it didn't have a MSG.


To summarize - it's discretionary on part of the sending or receiving institution. I understand that.

But, again, I asked VG 3 times when opening the original accounts "Do you require a Signature Guarantee?" At the time, it was an unequivocal "No". No caveats, exceptions, or "only whens". "No"

If they had required them in any form, I wouldn't have become a customer, due to the extreme hassle I had just had with Merrill Lynch at the time.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

tiff
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by tiff » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:26 pm

One of the banks we use is Wells Fargo. Some branches (you should call ahead and ask) have staff onsite to provide Medallion Signature Guarantee. They didn't charge me for the service.

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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Geologist » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:38 pm

leonard wrote:
To summarize - it's discretionary on part of the sending or receiving institution. I understand that.

But, again, I asked VG 3 times when opening the original accounts "Do you require a Signature Guarantee?" At the time, it was an unequivocal "No". No caveats, exceptions, or "only whens". "No"

If they had required them in any form, I wouldn't have become a customer, due to the extreme hassle I had just had with Merrill Lynch at the time.


With any financial institution (and this includes Vanguard), there is always the risk that they change their mind about what is covered by various paperwork, including signature guarantees.

leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:28 pm

Geologist wrote:
leonard wrote:
To summarize - it's discretionary on part of the sending or receiving institution. I understand that.

But, again, I asked VG 3 times when opening the original accounts "Do you require a Signature Guarantee?" At the time, it was an unequivocal "No". No caveats, exceptions, or "only whens". "No"

If they had required them in any form, I wouldn't have become a customer, due to the extreme hassle I had just had with Merrill Lynch at the time.


With any financial institution (and this includes Vanguard), there is always the risk that they change their mind about what is covered by various paperwork, including signature guarantees.


sure. they can change their mind. But, my starting point will always be with them NOT required.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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gardemanger
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by gardemanger » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:00 pm

leonard wrote:
DrChronzworth wrote:
leonard wrote:But, again, I asked VG 3 times when opening the original accounts "Do you require a Signature Guarantee?" At the time, it was an unequivocal "No". No caveats, exceptions, or "only whens". "No"



The explanation that's usually invoked for the ever-increasing requirements for signature guarantees is that the PATRIOT Act requires them. Well, it doesn't, not in so many words; though the Act does require financial institutions to verify account-holders' identity, it does not explicitly say that a signature guarantee is the best or only way to do that.

However, participation in STAMP (Securities Transfer Agents Medallion Program) seems to be more directly motivated by the financial institutions' need to limit liability. Transfers and securities instructions requiring owners' signatures must have those signatures guaranteed by a bank or broker. The guarantee is backed up by an insurance policy. When they follow the requirements of the medallion program, the bank or broker's liability is limited in the event that the signature or other information is fraudulent.

leonard
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by leonard » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:22 pm

gardemanger wrote:
leonard wrote:
DrChronzworth wrote:
leonard wrote:But, again, I asked VG 3 times when opening the original accounts "Do you require a Signature Guarantee?" At the time, it was an unequivocal "No". No caveats, exceptions, or "only whens". "No"



The explanation that's usually invoked for the ever-increasing requirements for signature guarantees is that the PATRIOT Act requires them. Well, it doesn't, not in so many words; though the Act does require financial institutions to verify account-holders' identity, it does not explicitly say that a signature guarantee is the best or only way to do that.

However, participation in STAMP (Securities Transfer Agents Medallion Program) seems to be more directly motivated by the financial institutions' need to limit liability. Transfers and securities instructions requiring owners' signatures must have those signatures guaranteed by a bank or broker. The guarantee is backed up by an insurance policy. When they follow the requirements of the medallion program, the bank or broker's liability is limited in the event that the signature or other information is fraudulent.


Since it's discretionary - I think it is used as a tool to increase switching costs for customers transferring out. Since costs are increase, less determined switchers might simply leave the account there. I am positive that is how Merrill used it in my experience.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

Lilly
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Lilly » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:56 pm

When I did an exchange from Edward Jones to Vanguard, Jones required the medallion signature. My credit union did not offer the service. I had to go to another bank in my town for the service. It cost $10. It was very easy to do. I had to bring a copy of my last statement from Jones.

Good luck,
Lilly

Bharat
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Bharat » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:38 pm

Lilly wrote:When I did an exchange from Edward Jones to Vanguard, Jones required the medallion signature. My credit union did not offer the service. I had to go to another bank in my town for the service. It cost $10. It was very easy to do. I had to bring a copy of my last statement from Jones.

Good luck,
Lilly

Did you had account with this bank or they just gave the medallian signature based on your account balance at Jones?
Everything that you own, owns piece of you.

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randomizer
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by randomizer » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:13 am

I was in a similar boat (online accounts only) and couldn't get a medallion signature guarantee anywhere. But with Vanguard voice idea was able to do what I needed to do without the guarantee. Good thing too, because otherwise I would have been out of options.

DayOfChange
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by DayOfChange » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:39 am

I wanted to move a tIRA from a different brokerage to vanguard. Vanguard sent me the initial paper work saying I would need a medallion signature. I emailed vanguard and asked why. It took them a couple weeks but they responded saying I actually don't need the medallion signature. In between that time I transferred the funds to somewhere else. Maybe call and double check that the medallion signature is actually required?

munemaker
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by munemaker » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 am

I had a number of paper stock certificates that I just sent to Vanguard. The form says it needs a medallion stamp, but they said not required in my case.

Also, on one of the certificates, the name did not match exactly. They had me fill out a form that says the two names are the same people. The form required a medallion stamp and specifically stated a notary stamp is not acceptable. They told me to just get a notary stamp. The notary protested and said the form says notary stamp not acceptable, and she would not put her notary stamp in the space for the medallion stamp. I told her just notarize it anyway and put your stamp down below then, which she did.

afan
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by afan » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:20 am

TheExMexican wrote: The one exception was Bank of America.

They said "as long as you have an account with us, we will do it for you". I replied "Do you mean to tell me if I go over right now and open a checking account, you will sign my papers?" ..."Yep"...
TheExMex



That is fascinating. I have had accounts at Bank of America for years. The last time I was in to get something notarized I asked about medallion signatures and they said they only did that for Merrill customers, that the branch managers were no longer permitted to do them. But it routinely the case that the people working in the branches don't know what they are doing.
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MossySF
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by MossySF » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:43 am

I just got some forms stamped with medallion guarantees at Patelco Credit Union. (I have checking + HSA savings + HSA investing with Patelco.) Their fee schedule says it costs $10 for members but the branch manager just waved his hand and skipped collecting the fee.

boglesmind
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by boglesmind » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:54 am

leonard wrote:When I transferred to VG - I specifically asked them if they ever required a signature guarantee to transfer securities out OR for any other reason. I checked that fact 3 times and they affirmed each time that they did NOT require one.

So, either they changed their policy OR they have given you miss information.

I most emphatically would not do business with a company that requires a signature guarantee - even VG.


To each his/her own.

Due to flaws in the SWIFT system, hackers were able to electronically transfer/steal close to 100 million dollars from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York account of Bangaladesh and most of funds were not recovered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bangladesh_Bank_heist

Many businesses have lost millions of dollars in large wire transfers initiated electronically by fraudulent means without a second level of authentication. Bitcoin (an all electronic crypto currency) exchanges have lost millions of dollars of customers' deposits and have to close down.

Just this week there was a story about NASA refusing to sign off on ATO "authority to operate" for the systems & tools managed by HP. http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08/nasas-outsourced-computer-people-are-even-worse-than-you-might-expect/
... more than 38,000 ACES-supported computers across all NASA centers have more than 378,000 unpatched vulnerabilities in aggregate. It's speculated that the refusal to sign off on the ATO is designed to bring the deficiencies of the HP contract to the attention of NASA's federal watchdogs, including the Office of Management and Budget, Congress and the US Government Accountability Office.


Electronic systems are only as secure as the human effort that went into making them so. Alas humans are fallible.

Boglesmind

Erwin
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Re: Medallion Signature Guarantee

Post by Erwin » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:36 am

And if you think that it is a pain in the US, try to ask a foreign bank to provide you with that requirement. I live overseas and have my money at Fidelity. For years I have wanted to add another member of my family to the account but I have been unable. Foreign banks do not know what you are talking about and the US consulate specifically states that they do not provide tha service.
Erwin

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