Buying physical gold

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dimdum
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Buying physical gold

Post by dimdum »

I know lots of bogleheads owe precious metal and gold. I have been thinking of adding gold to my retirement portfolio.
My current AA is 30/70 and plan is to add 5% of physical gold coins. The 5% will come from bonds/fixed income part.
I currently owe $0 in gold and ~20 yrs or so from retirement.

5% is about $25K and I have cash in saving that I will use (won't be selling any bonds).

I was thinking of entering at 1300$, now that its under that, plan is to buy some now and then add additional at 75-100$ dip.

Question - what is best site to buy ? Researching thru Kitco forum, It looks like JM bullion may be the best.
What coin to buy, again recommendation seems to be 24K (maple).

How much should I be buying, start with 2 coins ? Other thoughts on adding precious metal, especially physical gold ?
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pjstack
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by pjstack »

Let the bashing begin!!!

(I own 6 coins.)

My only advice is NOT to buy "numismatic" coins unless you are a hard core coin collector. (I own two.) They will be sold to you as "uncirculated" but when sold by you they will be will be magically downgraded to "awful" (a fly skidded while landing on them and are now terribly worn, etc.).

Check out local coin shops or "cash for gold" shops and compare prices accounting for shipping costs from JM Bullion (for example). Just buy bullion coins (US gold $50 gold eagles, Canadian Maple leaf, etc.).

I bought mine for ~$400 a long time ago. Not buying any more for the moment.
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209south
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by 209south »

Call Colorado Gold - great service and low commissions - premiums are modestly higher on Eagles and Buffaloes but I presume those would be recouped upon eventual sale - I own a variety.
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zoot
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by zoot »

I agree with earlier post...stay away from numismatics. American eagles or Canadian maples are best bets. Here is a link that compares prices at several dealers. Do your own due diligence :beer :

http://www.goldprice.com
OneWorld111
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by OneWorld111 »

I have typically bought from Apmex website and buy 1 oz credit Suisse or pamp bars.

Good service and no hassles.

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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by QBoy »

Why not an ETF, such as IAU?
linuxizer
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by linuxizer »

Can you explain why you think gold should come out of your bond allocation not your stock allocation?
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Watty
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Watty »

Be sure to understand the special 28% capital gains tax rate that you could end up paying.

I know that some people are skeptical of them but an ETF in a Roth account could work out well since you would not need to pay taxes on it.

Just like other types of investments diversification has its advantages, you might buy part physical gold, part ETF's in taxable and retirement accounts some miner stocks, etc. so that you have a mixture of accounts types. This would also help if the physical gold is ever stolen or lost in a fire.

I am curious though as to just what your goal of buying gold is. If it is to help protect yourself in case of an economic collapse then there might be better ways to get the same protection.
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dimdum
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by dimdum »

Thanks everyone for response, I checked the sites mentioned and also called few gold dealers in the area. I was looking for Canadian maple and many didn't carry them, other dealers were expensive compared to online. I end up buying one coin with JMB. I like physical gold than paper or etf.

Reason for buying PM gold is part diversification, part sentiment value.

At some point gold will stabilize, not sure when but expected around either $1150 or $950 range.
The cost of current gold price is equivalence to cost to produce. Also Asia (China, India) is huge mkt and will support around that price.
If that doesn't happen I'll be any way DCA into it.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-0 ... ommodities

I don't have good answer to why I'm buying from fixed income quota expect for that I have cash in there.

Edit: updated URL
linuxizer
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by linuxizer »

Production cost is around $750 I thought?
LondonJimmy
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by LondonJimmy »

I know the best people here in the UK. I bought kilo bars because I wanted the most amount of gold for my money with the lowest premiums.

Are you in the US?
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

dimdum wrote: I was thinking of entering at 1300$, now that its under that, plan is to buy some now and then add additional at 75-100$ dip.
Other thoughts on adding precious metal, especially physical gold ?
A few things to consider:

First, gold can and has dropped severely. Like it could go down to $600 in a year. Are you ready for that?

Second, owning gold coins means you have to deal with buying and selling them, losing at least 3% in both directions. Would you buy a mutual fund with a 3% front end and 3% back end?

As to the last question, I personally think silver is a better deal right now and a better metal overall, extremely useful beyond jewelry. Still not buying it, and if someone gave me 1000 oz of silver, I would sell it and buy stocks. If you want to prepare for the end of the World as we know it, spend $5000 on a survival kit, and invest the rest in stocks.
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imperialyoyo
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by imperialyoyo »

dimdum wrote:I know lots of bogleheads owe precious metal and gold.
Is this true? I read that commodities are more speculation than investment.
LondonJimmy
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by LondonJimmy »

imperialyoyo wrote:
dimdum wrote:I know lots of bogleheads owe precious metal and gold.
Is this true? I read that commodities are more speculation than investment.
Of course it is speculation. Investment is putting out money now in order to get more money back later on at an appropriate rate.

However, owning a small amount of say gold, may provide diversification benefits.
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Rob5TCP
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Rob5TCP »

Well it's 3% cheaper today than yesterday. As long as you realize this is heavy speculation.
The last time (as least as far as I remember) gold was in such a downtrend trend, it stayed down
for 20 years. Whether this is the beginning of the gold going to $500 or $2500 is anyone's
GUESS.

I still have some gold left. I got lucky and bought it (because of an article years ago)
at a much lower price (plus some options). I sold more than half and still have some
left and some silver. But they are down close to 30+% since the peak.
cheesepep
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by cheesepep »

I'm with Buffet; I don't like gold as an investment. As a hobby or just for fun, go for it!
wesleymouch
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by wesleymouch »

APMES is great with good prices. I would only buy 1 ounce Canadaian maples, American Eagles or Krugerrands.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by wesleymouch »

z3r0c00l wrote:
dimdum wrote: I was thinking of entering at 1300$, now that its under that, plan is to buy some now and then add additional at 75-100$ dip.
Other thoughts on adding precious metal, especially physical gold ?
A few things to consider:

First, gold can and has dropped severely. Like it could go down to $600 in a year. Are you ready for that?

Second, owning gold coins means you have to deal with buying and selling them, losing at least 3% in both directions. Would you buy a mutual fund with a 3% front end and 3% back end?

As to the last question, I personally think silver is a better deal right now and a better metal overall, extremely useful beyond jewelry. Still not buying it, and if someone gave me 1000 oz of silver, I would sell it and buy stocks. If you want to prepare for the end of the World as we know it, spend $5000 on a survival kit, and invest the rest in stocks.
Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

wesleymouch wrote: Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
Being honest and paying one's income taxes in full of course; as is legally required whether or not somebody sends a form.
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dimdum
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by dimdum »

LondonJimmy, Yes I'm in US.

Like any investment, yes there is risk and volatility in gold.
I'm buying as people are fearful now (I do like Warren buffet), I agree with cheesepep on that.

The production cost for gold in South Africa is more than $1200 (that include labor and capex).

Cost of gold worldwide.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-0 ... ommodities

Cheapest is Barrick Gold Corp. (ABX), the biggest producer, operates mines at or near the surface and last posted output and capex costs of $919 an ounce.

Yes, gold can drop down to below $900 but will rise soon as mine will decrease producing, its simple principle of demand supply.

Yes, there is 3% upfront load on buying but you can sell at spot price.
I would say 3% for round trip.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by wesleymouch »

The all in cost of gold including CAPITAL costs is around $1300 per ounce.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Because newly-mined gold is not chemically transformed by consumption, all that happens is the above-ground supply increases. It's very much unlike, say, natural gas, which once used is no longer natural gas.

Total above-ground gold supply estimate (at the end of 2006): 158,000 tonnes.
Total annual production estimate: 2,500 tonnes.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment

2,500 / 158,000 = 1.6% increase in the above-ground supply of gold per year.

Much (but I haven't found how much) of the gold mined annually is a byproduct of other activities. "The largest producing gold mine in the world, the Grasberg mine in Papua, Indonesia, is primarily a copper mine." As long as the price of copper is high enough for them to continue to mine, and the price of gold high enough to offset the costs of smelting it, they'll continue to produce gold.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_minin ... old_mining

The price of gold goes down when enough current holders decide the price is high enough to induce them to sell. It goes up when they decide the price is too low to sell but others decide they want to buy. Nearly all trading is of existing stocks.

The cost of production barely enters into it.

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nimo956
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by nimo956 »

cheesepep wrote:I'm with Buffet; I don't like gold as an investment. As a hobby or just for fun, go for it!
MediumTex wrote:Warren Buffett is one of the largest precious metals speculators in modern times.

In 1998 he accumulated a silver position that eventually reached over $600 million dollars at a price of $5 an ounce and was thought to represent a fifth of the world supply of silver at that time.

He later sold out of his position at around $7 an ounce. If he had maintained his position from 1998 to 2011, he would have seen a "10 bagger" on his silver investment and this performance alone could have prevented BRK's basically sideways movement in recent years. In other words, Buffett's precious metals play was good, but it could have been one of the great trades of all time if managed more prudently.

Thus, Buffett says one thing but does another when it comes to investing/speculating in precious metals, and his theory that precious metals can't match the returns offered by stocks is invalidated by his own silver investment that could have helped buoy his whole company in recent years as Buffett's stock picking ability wasn't able to keep BRK from drifting sideways and down with the rest of the market.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

wesleymouch wrote: Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
First, the forum does not allow discussing ways to break the law.

Ill believe that 2% claim when I see the receipt - does that include both the amount you pay over spot buying the coin (typically 3%, already larger than the number you quoted) and the ebay and paypal fees on selling? I must be crazy, but seem to remember Ebay charging a 10% flat rate on auction listings, is that not correct? That sounds like a 13% round trip to me, plus paypal. Even if you avoid taxes - which is perhaps not the smartest move when dealing with $25,000 worth of gold.

Let's be generous and call it a 3% round trip (not using ebay, as we have just demonstrated) then the question remains - would you ever buy a fund with a 3% load? I would not.

I love the idea of having to list my investments on Ebay when I want to redeem them... Just wait 7 days and hope someone buys it, if not, list again. If someone dropped gold coins in my lap, I would sell them right away and invest the money. Buy VGPMX if you really want to get a taste of precious metals. I would rather invest in the guys who profit from gold than buy the gold itself.
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SimonJester
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by SimonJester »

I would hurry and buy today before it goes down any more in value! :mrgreen:
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LondonJimmy
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by LondonJimmy »

z3r0c00l wrote:Ill believe that 2% claim when I see the receipt - does that include both the amount you pay over spot buying the coin (typically 3%, already larger than the number you quoted) and the ebay and paypal fees on selling? I must be crazy, but seem to remember Ebay charging a 10% flat rate on auction listings, is that not correct? That sounds like a 13% round trip to me, plus paypal. Even if you avoid taxes - which is perhaps not the smartest move when dealing with $25,000 worth of gold.

Let's be generous and call it a 3% round trip (not using ebay, as we have just demonstrated) then the question remains - would you ever buy a fund with a 3% load? I would not.

I love the idea of having to list my investments on Ebay when I want to redeem them... Just wait 7 days and hope someone buys it, if not, list again. If someone dropped gold coins in my lap, I would sell them right away and invest the money. Buy VGPMX if you really want to get a taste of precious metals. I would rather invest in the guys who profit from gold than buy the gold itself.

On large gold bars you pay 2% over spot. When selling I can sell at 1.5% under spot and easily sell at 2% under spot.

With coins, if you know what you're doing, you can get a premium.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by wesleymouch »

z3r0c00l wrote:
wesleymouch wrote: Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
First, the forum does not allow discussing ways to break the law.

Ill believe that 2% claim when I see the receipt - does that include both the amount you pay over spot buying the coin (typically 3%, already larger than the number you quoted) and the ebay and paypal fees on selling? I must be crazy, but seem to remember Ebay charging a 10% flat rate on auction listings, is that not correct? That sounds like a 13% round trip to me, plus paypal. Even if you avoid taxes - which is perhaps not the smartest move when dealing with $25,000 worth of gold.

Let's be generous and call it a 3% round trip (not using ebay, as we have just demonstrated) then the question remains - would you ever buy a fund with a 3% load? I would not.

I love the idea of having to list my investments on Ebay when I want to redeem them... Just wait 7 days and hope someone buys it, if not, list again. If someone dropped gold coins in my lap, I would sell them right away and invest the money. Buy VGPMX if you really want to get a taste of precious metals. I would rather invest in the guys who profit from gold than buy the gold itself.
No one said anything about breaking the law only that [repeat of suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]. APMEX prices for buy and sell spread of Canadian maples is around 1.8% in normal times. Sell offs like this increase physical buying and hence premiums. I think that you do not understand gold. It is not an investment. It is a hedge against tail risk.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by wesleymouch »

z3r0c00l wrote:
wesleymouch wrote: Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
First, the forum does not allow discussing ways to break the law.

Ill believe that 2% claim when I see the receipt - does that include both the amount you pay over spot buying the coin (typically 3%, already larger than the number you quoted) and the ebay and paypal fees on selling? I must be crazy, but seem to remember Ebay charging a 10% flat rate on auction listings, is that not correct? That sounds like a 13% round trip to me, plus paypal. Even if you avoid taxes - which is perhaps not the smartest move when dealing with $25,000 worth of gold.

Let's be generous and call it a 3% round trip (not using ebay, as we have just demonstrated) then the question remains - would you ever buy a fund with a 3% load? I would not.

I love the idea of having to list my investments on Ebay when I want to redeem them... Just wait 7 days and hope someone buys it, if not, list again. If someone dropped gold coins in my lap, I would sell them right away and invest the money. Buy VGPMX if you really want to get a taste of precious metals. I would rather invest in the guys who profit from gold than buy the gold itself.
Go to tulving.com and look at buy/sell spreads for 1 ounce Canadian maples. It is 1.6%.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

APMEX prices for buy and sell spread of Canadian maples is around 1.8% in normal times.
And during abnormal times? Ebay or a pawn shop? Or snipping off pieces of the coin and trying to buy food with it.

I know gold has been doing well lately, so hopefully it will continue to perform for you.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

wesleymouch wrote: Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
[Emphasis added.]

Actually, you didn't just say you do not get one. You said something more specific:
wesleymouch wrote:Round trip costs are usually 2%. You can sell on ebay or to Tulving [suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]
[Emphasis added.]

Sounds pretty intentional to me.

Why would it be advantageous to, in your words, "[suggestion removed by admin LadyGeek]"?

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lmpmd
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by lmpmd »

LondonJimmy wrote:
imperialyoyo wrote:
dimdum wrote:I know lots of bogleheads owe precious metal and gold.
Is this true? I read that commodities are more speculation than investment.
Of course it is speculation. Investment is putting out money now in order to get more money back later on at an appropriate rate.

However, owning a small amount of say gold, may provide diversification benefits.
I think we are having a definition problem here. Buying gold is speculative according to conservative bogleheadism. So bogleheads (you might say orthodox or conservative bogleheads) don't buy gold. However in a more inclusive/broad definition of bogleheads - meaning anyone who posts to the boglehead forums - than one might say many bogleheads invest in gold. Certainly John Bogle would not advise you to own gold.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by LadyGeek »

As a reminder, suggestions of dishonest behavior are totally unacceptable here.
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mephistophles
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by mephistophles »

dim,
I am conservative except when I am not. No one has ever accused me of being orthodox. I follow a lot of boglehead philosophy, but I am not captive to any fixed, rigid belief system in investing or anything else. IMHO owning some physical gold makes sense. Buy direct from Kitco. That said, market timing of gold purchases is as fruitless as market timing of anything else. If you insist on timing, then wait until gold hits its bottom 8-)
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dimdum
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by dimdum »

I am conservative except when I am not. No one has ever accused me of being orthodox. I follow a lot of boglehead philosophy, but I am not captive to any fixed, rigid belief system in investing or anything else. IMHO owning some physical gold makes sense. Buy direct from Kitco. That said, market timing of gold purchases is as fruitless as market timing of anything else. If you insist on timing, then wait until gold hits its bottom 8-)
Not trying to do mkt timing but set a threshold to enter and buy on dip.
Brought one coin when gold hit 1249$.

Plan to buy more at $1175~1200 range. IMO $950ish is bottom range.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

At least market timing is a fun gamble with some chance to outperform the market. Buying on the dips doesn't even make sense... What good did the 1249 dip do you if you plan to buy again in the 1175 range? Just buy them all at 1175! Or if you think the bottom is 950, just wait for 950.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by john94549 »

This is right up there with "I've decided to do something, what's the cheapest way?" When the "thing" upon which one has decided is inappropriate. Many folks just like to run their hands through gold coins, sifting them, as it were. Watching them slide through one's fingers, as if a "forty-niner", striking gold.

It is a tad weird.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by mephistophles »

dimdum wrote:
I am conservative except when I am not. No one has ever accused me of being orthodox. I follow a lot of boglehead philosophy, but I am not captive to any fixed, rigid belief system in investing or anything else. IMHO owning some physical gold makes sense. Buy direct from Kitco. That said, market timing of gold purchases is as fruitless as market timing of anything else. If you insist on timing, then wait until gold hits its bottom 8-)
Not trying to do mkt timing but set a threshold to enter and buy on dip.
Brought one coin when gold hit 1249$.

Plan to buy more at $1175~1200 range. IMO $950ish is bottom range.
My point was.....no one has any clue what the bottom is..........!
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by cheesepep »

nimo956 wrote:
cheesepep wrote:I'm with Buffet; I don't like gold as an investment. As a hobby or just for fun, go for it!
MediumTex wrote:Warren Buffett is one of the largest precious metals speculators in modern times.

In 1998 he accumulated a silver position that eventually reached over $600 million dollars at a price of $5 an ounce and was thought to represent a fifth of the world supply of silver at that time.

He later sold out of his position at around $7 an ounce. If he had maintained his position from 1998 to 2011, he would have seen a "10 bagger" on his silver investment and this performance alone could have prevented BRK's basically sideways movement in recent years. In other words, Buffett's precious metals play was good, but it could have been one of the great trades of all time if managed more prudently.

Thus, Buffett says one thing but does another when it comes to investing/speculating in precious metals, and his theory that precious metals can't match the returns offered by stocks is invalidated by his own silver investment that could have helped buoy his whole company in recent years as Buffett's stock picking ability wasn't able to keep BRK from drifting sideways and down with the rest of the market.
I could of sworn I put the word gold in my reply and not silver. Silly me. I don't know Buffet's stance on silver, but I know his stance on gold.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by mtbouchard »

Youre in the middle of a speculative gold bubble by people who dont understand what the USA Fed is doing or what the 10 year treasury bond is saying. Gold should go up with inflation expectation.

Wait til gold is down to $950 minimum...and even then, TIPS provide the same insurance against inflation if thats what you want.

If you just like the look of the coins...thats fine...but Gold is not a real investment.

Matt
Ful disclosure: I shorted gold at $1750 for amusement purposes.
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dimdum
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by dimdum »

I'm not trying to time the market and I don't know where is bottom but I had to start somewhere and for me it was 1249$. Just brought one coin and plan to DCA on dips.
I might add silver/gold etf down the line to save upfront cost/loads, we'll see how it plays out.

I think its around $950 range as it will 50% off peak and also cost of producing gold at that level is unsustainable for long term.

Also India, China is consumer market for gold, they don't treat as investment.
Gold is consumed as fashion, jewelry and status item and almost no one sell their gold (its last resort in those countries).
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

dimdum wrote:Just brought one coin and plan to DCA on dips.
I might add silver/gold etf down the line to save upfront cost/loads, we'll see how it plays out.
I am saying that, all due respect, buying on dips does not make any sense because, on the whole, investments go up over time. If gold is expected to go down, why buy it at all? If you expect it to go up, why not buy all now?

5% of your AA in a gold etf wont kill you, but I wonder if it will do any good. 50% in gold could really harm you. People in India and China are gaining wealth rapidly, I totally see your logic there. But let's be real, the last step for them is not selling the gold, it is eating bark. Read Chinese famine for more info. All they really have to do is stop buying gold, while gold is still being produced annually and the value is eroded. Gold could be $500 a year from now. The risks are very real. I could see it at $2000 in a year also, but is the upside worth the risk?
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Rainier
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Rainier »

It's just a metal, it doesn't do anything. People just like it because other people like it. One day you might wake up and everybody stops liking it.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

I think that is unlikely, gold is useful and has been popular for a long time... but that still doesn't make it a good investment. I don't see people here buying oil, aluminum, copper... instead we invest in the companies that profit from the sale of these items. They have the edge and we can get a piece of their profits.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by Randomize »

z3r0c00l wrote: I don't see people here buying oil, aluminum, copper.
Those things don't exactly fit into extremely compact spaces like gold and silver, either. If they did, you can bet that all the gun-and-bunker types would have a nice stash to compliment their gold and canned food :happy
z3r0c00l
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by z3r0c00l »

You could fit $50,000 worth of copper in a closet, as long as the floor is very strong...
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momar
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by momar »

You might find it easier to stock up on bespoke suits, which don't trade at prices other than spot and can be exchanged for 1 oz of gold.
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sometimesinvestor
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by sometimesinvestor »

momar wrote:You might find it easier to stock up on bespoke suits, which don't trade at prices other than spot and can be exchanged for 1 oz of gold.
I don't think so. You may be able to trade an oz of gold for a bespoke suit (with the recent drop in gold I am less confident but like most bogleheads I don't buy bespoke suits so am uncertain of todays market value for such suits) but I am cetain that a bespoke suit loses value instantly for everyone but the buyer as it doesn't fit well enough to justfy the price without expensive alterations.
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by ucla-engineer »

Watty wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:23 pm Be sure to understand the special 28% capital gains tax rate that you could end up paying.

I know that some people are skeptical of them but an ETF in a Roth account could work out well since you would not need to pay taxes on it.

Just like other types of investments diversification has its advantages, you might buy part physical gold, part ETF's in taxable and retirement accounts some miner stocks, etc. so that you have a mixture of accounts types. This would also help if the physical gold is ever stolen or lost in a fire.

I am curious though as to just what your goal of buying gold is. If it is to help protect yourself in case of an economic collapse then there might be better ways to get the same protection.

How does gold get lost in a fire?
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David Jay
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by David Jay »

Um - this is a six year old thread. Keep an eye on dates when you use the search function [ask me now I know :( ]
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Re: Buying physical gold

Post by suemarkp »

ucla-engineer wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 pm How does gold get lost in a fire?
When the fire is on your boat and the boat sinks. Most people lost their gold in boating accidents.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
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