VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

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atl2005
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VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by atl2005 »

I'm going to invest about 20-25k in the total stock market index/fund, but don't really understand the difference in the ETF vs the Admiral Shares. Do the admiral shares still have more turnover, thus more short term/capital gains taxes (this investment is for my taxable account)?

Is there even a noticeable difference in the two options?
livesoft
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by livesoft »

For all non-practical purposes, there is absolutely no difference in the two options. From posts on the forum there are some practical differences. Some are summarized in the wiki:
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs_Mutual_Funds

We have seen many people ask your question. And many people explain the answer. But perhaps the best answers come from folks who explain that they have anxiety when trying to place ETF orders. They just don't like to do it because
(a) they cannot do it during the time the market is open because they work
(b) they cannot decide what a good limit price would be
(c) they feel they might lose money on the way they place their order
(d) they are worriers by nature
(e) they let their imaginations run wild.

A mutual fund order does not have any of these issues because it is fulfilled after the close of the market at a fair price.

OTOH, folks who are used to placing orders for stocks find ETFs easy and mutual funds a little strange and uncomfortable.

If you don't know if you have anxiety or not, why not place an order for 5 shares of VTI and see how you like it, Then 10 shares, then the rest.

But as I wrote, there is no difference in the investment itself. There is a difference in the processes of investing in these 2 share classes. You have to find out what kind of person you are and which kind of ordering process suits you better or if it makes no difference to you.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by stan1 »

Livesoft forgot one:
They are worried their limit order won't execute
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atl2005
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by atl2005 »

Livesoft,

Thanks for the advice. I'm not one who is planning on buying/selling mutual funds/ETF's. I'm just going to buy it and let it ride, so the one time purchase every so often won't be a problem. I have bought and sold stocks over the years. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure one didn't have more turnover or some other issue that would effect my taxable account.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by ogd »

They are indeed very similar investments. A couple more practical things to consider:
1) you can always convert VTSAX to VTI without a taxable event, but not viceversa. That alone would argue for starting with VTSAX.
2) VTI, like all ETF and stocks, has a three-day settlement period. Meaning you can't get cash out on the same day, or buy *mutual funds* to rebalance. In practice, rebalancing between all-ETFs is easy and you don't have to be out of the market (you can turn around and buy another ETF immediately), rebalancing between all-MFs is also easy, but mixing them is a little more unpleasant.
3) you can buy fractional shares of a mutual fund (e.g. you have 10K to invest, you just type 10K in there).
livesoft wrote:(c) they feel they might lose money on the way they place their order
(d) they are worriers by nature
(e) they let their imaginations run wild.
I don't know if this is "imagination run wild" (maybe a lite version thereof) but when I trade an ETF it always seems like I'm paying a toll, losing a little money to Wall Street in the bid/ask spread and the premium/discount. Any contact with that world of tiny self-adjusting robotic quotes feels a little dirty... I might have proved your point, I know :)
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by inbox788 »

ogd wrote:They are indeed very similar investments. A couple more practical things to consider:
1) you can always convert VTSAX to VTI without a taxable event, but not viceversa. That alone would argue for starting with VTSAX.
2) VTI, like all ETF and stocks, has a three-day settlement period. Meaning you can't get cash out on the same day, or buy *mutual funds* to rebalance. In practice, rebalancing between all-ETFs is easy and you don't have to be out of the market (you can turn around and buy another ETF immediately), rebalancing between all-MFs is also easy, but mixing them is a little more unpleasant.
3) you can buy fractional shares of a mutual fund (e.g. you have 10K to invest, you just type 10K in there).
Thanks. Helpful to know. From an accounting point of view, is either simpler? I'm very familiar with stock sales FIFO vs specific lots. Assuming I buy frequently (several times a year) and rebalance at least annually to as often as quarterly, and costs are the same, will MF make life simpler or more complicated? I've used FIFO rather than highest cost long term gain lots to minimize the immediate tax payment when the amounts have been small so as not to complicate recordkeeping. MF supposedly have similar ability if you choose, but there's also concept of average cost, which gets muddled with buys and sells. This would be in a taxable account. Tax deferred account would simplify life, but that's going towards fixed income.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by ogd »

inbox788 wrote:Thanks. Helpful to know. From an accounting point of view, is either simpler?
Glad to help :) If you mean "tax accounting", they are the same. ("Other accounting" in my book would the point I made about fractional shares, where MFs have a slight advantage).
inbox788 wrote:Assuming I buy frequently (several times a year) and rebalance at least annually to as often as quarterly, and costs are the same, will MF make life simpler or more complicated? I've used FIFO rather than highest cost long term gain lots to minimize the immediate tax payment when the amounts have been small so as not to complicate recordkeeping. MF supposedly have similar ability if you choose, but there's also concept of average cost, which gets muddled with buys and sells. This would be in a taxable account. Tax deferred account would simplify life, but that's going towards fixed income.
No difference at Vanguard. You can use any of the three accounting methods (FIFO, avg and SpecID). Average cost is merely the default at Vanguard, it's compatible with shares bought before 2012, before the brokers were required to keep track. SpecID is the most tax-efficient obviously, but also slightly more complex. Frequent investments (like that rookie mistake I made in the beginning, reinvesting dividends -- that was a tax nightmare) do make things more complicated, more tax lots, but life got much much simpler since the tracking requirements.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by stan1 »

I never plan to sell anything in taxable accounts and realize capital gains solely for the purpose of rebalancing. While working I'll rebalance with new contributions and distributions, and during retirement I'll rebalance by selling taxable holdings to pay for living expenses. I've also sold some equities/muni bonds in my taxable account with long term gains to pay for a car and pay off my mortgage, using the opportunity to rebalance as a secondary consideration. I've chosen my asset allocation with this approach in mind.

Mutual funds and ETFs are pretty much the same today. I think the main point is your comfort level with limit orders.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

stan1 wrote:Mutual funds and ETFs are pretty much the same today. I think the main point is your comfort level with limit orders.
The above seems to be the common thought. Could someone please explain what the problem with limit orders would be? It would seem the ETF VTI would allow for more control and freedom, while the MF VTSAX you are, if I am not mistaken, locked into the day's closing price once a decision to sell is made.

I know Uncle Jack keeps preaching for the MF versions, but I just don't see what I am missing? I know I have heard about ETF bid/ask prices deviating under extreme conditions with strong selling pressure, is this what I am missing? The closing MF day's price would be immune from these pressures?

Thank you in advance, this is such a wise and generous community.

:moneybag
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livesoft
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by livesoft »

I have no problems with limit orders myself, but I often use market orders, too.

It seems that many people do not understand what a "marketable limit order" is.

Plus there is some mis-information about what are "best practices" for ETF orders.

I have also seen that folks do NOT like the control and any potential blame that goes with it. Many folks have a difficult time deciding what price to set with a limit order.

This past Thursday, I did some tax-loss harvesting of VTI by selling ALL my shares in it. Here is the totally cool thing: I used market orders and I ended up selling way below the closing price of the day. Indeed, I sold slightly above the lowest price of the day. That turned out to be near the lowest price of the week. I was incredibly happy to get this deal because I got almost the most losses that I could achieve for anyone selling this week. I still made some money on the trades. Can you tell me why?
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

Seems people coming from a stock trading background are more comfortable w ETFs
Those from a MF background are uncomfortable diversifying.

Is there any logical, "mechanical" aspect based on their individual characteristics that would matter to an investor?
I still seem to see the freedom w ETF as an advantage, but am not familiar with the differences in a trade.

Maybe Monday I will enter but not execute some orders for VTI and VTSAX....

:moneybag

PS Here's a hypothetical, you have both VTI abd VTSAX because you were unsure bought both essentially same entry date and price for arguments sake. Black swan event hits, pick whatever, nuclear bomb, something horrible, in the morning while markets are open or before, either way you sell ETF because you realized you had the wrong AA and are not willing to "stay the course." You also choose to liquidate the VTSAX MF, which executes later in the day. Would you not lose less w the ETF trade?
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by livesoft »

If you enter a buy order for VTSAX at Vanguard, then I don't think you can cancel it, so I think it will execute. :)
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

Shows which I am more familiar with :beer
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by iceport »

CommonCent$ wrote:Seems people coming from a stock trading background are more comfortable w ETFs
Those from a MF background are uncomfortable diversifying.

Is there any logical, "mechanical" aspect based on their individual characteristics that would matter to an investor?
I still seem to see the freedom w ETF as an advantage, but am not familiar with the differences in a trade.

Maybe Monday I will enter but not execute some orders for VTI and VTSAX....

:moneybag
Ironically, mutual funds offer more "freedom" for me, because I work during trading hours. With mutual funds, there's practically no time that isn't a perfectly good time to trade. With ETFs, people are, practically, limited to something like 6 hours of a typical trading session when the market is open. That happens to be the time I'm typically at work. :annoyed

Here are a couple of recent threads on the topic:

I hate ETFs!!!

Vanguard Index Funds (Admiral) vs ETFs (Advantages and disadvantages)
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by livesoft »

CommonCent$ wrote:PS Here's a hypothetical, you have both VTI abd VTSAX because you were unsure bought both essentially same entry date and price for arguments sake. Black swan event hits, pick whatever, nuclear bomb, something horrible, in the morning while markets are open or before, either way you sell ETF because you realized you had the wrong AA and are not willing to "stay the course." You also choose to liquidate the VTSAX MF, which executes later in the day. Would you not lose less w the ETF trade?
There is really no way to predict in the morning whether the closing NAV will be higher or lower.
/
Take a look at the intraday trades of VTI for Thursday January 28. The ETF seller/buyer at the opening got near the high price of the day. While the next day, the ETF seller/buyer got the low price of the day. But some days, the opposite will happen. OTOH, one can easily tell if the closing price will be near the high or low for the day and make a decision to place an order or not.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by hnzw rui »

CommonCent$ wrote:Seems people coming from a stock trading background are more comfortable w ETFs
Those from a MF background are uncomfortable diversifying.

Is there any logical, "mechanical" aspect based on their individual characteristics that would matter to an investor?
I still seem to see the freedom w ETF as an advantage, but am not familiar with the differences in a trade.

Maybe Monday I will enter but not execute some orders for VTI and VTSAX....

:moneybag
Trouble diversifying? Why? They're invested in the exact same things.

For what it's worth, the reason I chose MF over ETF was convenience. With MF, I can just set up automatic investments from my checking account come payday. With ETFs, I'd have to manually create orders and that lead to a lot of tinkering. Heck, I actually went with a single target date fund instead of a three fund portfolio so I wouldn't have to manually rebalance. My portfolio seems to do better when I'm hands off.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

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CommonCent$ wrote:PS Here's a hypothetical, you have both VTI abd VTSAX because you were unsure bought both essentially same entry date and price for arguments sake. Black swan event hits, pick whatever, nuclear bomb, something horrible, in the morning while markets are open or before, either way you sell ETF because you realized you had the wrong AA and are not willing to "stay the course." You also choose to liquidate the VTSAX MF, which executes later in the day. Would you not lose less w the ETF trade?
There are some that give a big advantage to mutual funds over ETFs because of just the type of event you describe. (Author Bill Bernstein is one of the more outspoken one that comes to mind.) It's more likely that the ETF will become illiquid at exactly the time that liquidity is most needed.

From a 2011 interview:
Ludwig: How do you square the high-frequency trading phenomenon with the ETF, which depends in some ways on the presence of high-speed trading? I presume that by and large you support the emergence of the ETF as an investment vehicle?

Bernstein: Not really. There are very few cases where you can get access with an ETF that you can’t get with a plain vanilla mutual fund. And I would always go with the plain vanilla mutual fund because you don’t have the liquidity problem. When you really need the liquidity with an ETF—even the most liquid ETFs—it’s going to dry up, particularly on the bond side. But there are a couple of cases where I do recommend the ETF, where you just don’t have access to the asset class in open-end form.

Ludwig: For example?

Bernstein: International real estate.

Ludwig: Like Vanguard’s “VNQI,” which gives you access to international real estate?

Bernstein: Right. That’s a rare instance though. The average investor is much better served by an open-end mutual fund.

Ludwig: But if you’re a buy-and-hold investor in an ETF that costs less than a mutual fund, how are you going to be hurt by high-frequency traders?

Bernstein: You’re still going to want to trade, and want to rebalance; you’re still going to want to sell when prices are really high. And, more importantly, you’re still going to want to buy when prices are really low. Those are precisely the times you’re going to get hurt with an ETF.

Ludwig: Because of the wider trading spreads at those times, you mean?

Bernstein: Exactly.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

I don't understand why that would matter, as you said they contain the same holdings, if there are no buyers, should be same selling pressure, no?

I interpret his answer saying that the MF will sort of "save you from yourself" which is different than the liquidity situation I was trying to demonstrate in my example. Thoughts...?
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

hnzw rui wrote:
CommonCent$ wrote:Seems people coming from a stock trading background are more comfortable w ETFs
Those from a MF background are uncomfortable diversifying.

Is there any logical, "mechanical" aspect based on their individual characteristics that would matter to an investor?
I still seem to see the freedom w ETF as an advantage, but am not familiar with the differences in a trade.

Maybe Monday I will enter but not execute some orders for VTI and VTSAX....

:moneybag
Trouble diversifying? Why? They're invested in the exact same things.
Well that is what we are discussing/debating... :) If they really were the same, there would be no discussion as to which to buy, the difference is in how they trade, and how that will affect things. It seems getting into Mutual Funds is easier due to the potential for DCA, scheduled buys, with ETFs I still can't understand why the ability to trade while markets is open is not an advantage? Maybe it is a time perspective thing...
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by livesoft »

I think most Bogleheads can ignore the words on Bill Bernstein on this illiquidity issue, but market timers do need to pay attention.

I have lived through and executed some ETF trades on the days of flash crashes and strange price quotes. I enjoyed making money those days.

I would say that one should (a) not submit stop orders nor stop limit orders to sell ETFs and (b) do not buy ETFs on margin, so that your broker has no reason to sell your holdings at times of strange quotes.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

I am coming to the impression that neither is really "superior."

The ETF offers more flexibility, more ability to make mistakes and possibly more control in times of crisis. If you see the freedom as an advantage you will favor ETF. If you fear the freedom and are more of a stay the course person, then the MF makes more sense especially when considering the DCA options. PS I am not necessarily advocating market timing, but the freedom to be able to make changes I see as an advantage, but realize it could allow some to make market timing mistakes as well.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by iceport »

CommonCent$ wrote:I still can't understand why the ability to trade while markets is open is not an advantage? Maybe it is a time perspective thing...
It's a work thing. I don't know about you, but my employer expects me to be working on its behalf, not my own, while they're paying me.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by selftalk »

For me the main difference I was concerned about was the fact that the ETFs could be bought or sold during the market open hours. I heard on the car radio the other day that the market was down interday 500 or so points but ended the day down 250 points. If I was so inclined to buy I would want to get my shares cheaper at the minus 500 point time or near it instead of buying at the settlement price of minus 250 points. Note that the closing price might be at the lowest point of the day.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by hnzw rui »

iceport wrote:It's a work thing. I don't know about you, but my employer expects me to be working on its behalf, not my own, while they're paying me.
Last I checked, Wall St doesn't close for lunch so that's when I used to place my trades. :D
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by CommonCent$ »

Got it, thanks for sharing your perspective and insight. I was thinking more world altering events not every day trading. Hopefully we won't have any more of those for a bit.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI

Post by iceport »

CommonCent$ wrote:I don't understand why that would matter, as you said they contain the same holdings, if there are no buyers, should be same selling pressure, no?

I interpret his answer saying that the MF will sort of "save you from yourself" which is different than the liquidity situation I was trying to demonstrate in my example. Thoughts...?
If this is in reference to the Bernstein view I quoted, well, that view is specifically referring to the type of black swan event you raised. livesoft's personal, anecdotal experience notwithstanding, one risk is that the bid-ask spreads grow very large. Another that we've seen recently is the possibility of intra-day automated trading shut-downs. As far as I know, plain vanilla mutual funds are not subject to either issue.

Hey, my decision to use ETFs — or more accurately *not* to use them — is not based on these risks. But you brought them up, and if that's what worries you, mutual funds have less liquidity risk.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by CommonCent$ »

I'm not necessarily arguing either side on the liquidity issue during times of "market duress" that is actually what I am trying to better understand.
I have heard it argued both ways..

Thanks for everyones responses.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by inbox788 »

CommonCent$ wrote:I'm not necessarily arguing either side on the liquidity issue during times of "market duress" that is actually what I am trying to better understand.
I have heard it argued both ways..

Thanks for everyones responses.
When the market is under duress, you have a desperate seller and an opportunistic buyer. Are those the two views you've heard?

IMO, the market is not under duress 99.99% of the time and I with adequate planning (I.e. Maintaining an adequate emergency fund), you'll never have to worry.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by KATNYC »

We want to swap out VISVX for VSMVX Vanguard S&P Small-Cap 600 Value Index Fund but that requires $5,000,000 so we have to buy the ETF: VIOV

ETA: Not even trying to imply we have that kind of cash in case anyone doesn't get this is a joke. :wink:
Last edited by KATNYC on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by 123 »

KATNYC wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:29 pm We want to swap out VISVX for VSMVX Vanguard S&P Small-Cap 600 Value Index Fund but that requires $5,000,000 so we have to buy the ETF: VIOV
Yeah, I know sometimes you can be so close but you just can't make the minimum. I've often fantasized about getting VSMPX (An alternative institutional Plus class of VTSAX (Vanguard Total Market)). VSMPX has an er of 0.02% but I'm a little shy of the $100,000,000 minimum. Maybe if I cut back on my Starbucks lattes I could make it happen.
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Re: VTSAX vs VTI [Vanguard Total Stock Market - Mutual fund vs. ETF]

Post by KATNYC »

123 wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:29 pm
KATNYC wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:29 pm We want to swap out VISVX for VSMVX Vanguard S&P Small-Cap 600 Value Index Fund but that requires $5,000,000 so we have to buy the ETF: VIOV
Yeah, I know sometimes you can be so close but you just can't make the minimum. I've often fantasized about getting VSMPX (An alternative institutional Plus class of VTSAX (Vanguard Total Market)). VSMPX has an er of 0.02% but I'm a little shy of the $100,000,000 minimum. Maybe if I cut back on my Starbucks lattes I could make it happen.
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