Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

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wbadbada
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:49 am

Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by wbadbada »

I'm trying to approximate the total stock market and international stock market but the selection of funds I have is giving me some trouble.

There's a VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST, but I'm not sure of the implications of this trust fund. In addition, it doesn't seem like I have much for approximating the international stock market.

Anyone have any advice on how to approach this?


List of available funds:

EQUITY/STOCK
AMERICAN EUROPACIFIC GROWTH R6
AMERICAN GROWTH FUND R6
ARTISAN MID CAP FUND INVEST CL
ARTISAN MID CAP VALUE FUND INV
BLACKROCK EXTENDED FD CL K
BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M
DFA U.S. SUSTAINABILITY CORE 1
DODGE & COX INTERNATIONAL ST
FIDELITY ADVISOR REAL EST CL A
FIDELITY REAL ESTATE IDX INSTL
HOTCHKIS AND WILEY SML CP VL I
JP MORGAN EMRGING MRKTS EQT R6
MFS INTL NEW DISCOVERY FD CL A
MFS VALUE FUND CL A
VANGUARD EXPLORER FUND
VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST


BOND/FIXED INCOME

DODGE & COX INCOME
MFS EMERGING MARKETS DBT CL A
PIMCO INCOME FUND CL A
PIMCO TOTAL RETURN ESG CL A
STATE STREET TIPS INDEX CL A
VANGUARD HIGH YIELD CORPORATE
VANGUARD INSTL TOTAL BND ID TR
VANGUARD INTER TREAS INDX INST
VANGUARD SHRT TRM BD INDX INST

MONEY MARKET
BLACKROCK FEDFUND INSTL CL
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anon_investor
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by anon_investor »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pm I'm trying to approximate the total stock market and international stock market but the selection of funds I have is giving me some trouble.

There's a VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST, but I'm not sure of the implications of this trust fund. In addition, it doesn't seem like I have much for approximating the international stock market.

Anyone have any advice on how to approach this?


List of available funds:

EQUITY/STOCK
AMERICAN EUROPACIFIC GROWTH R6
AMERICAN GROWTH FUND R6
ARTISAN MID CAP FUND INVEST CL
ARTISAN MID CAP VALUE FUND INV
BLACKROCK EXTENDED FD CL K
BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M
DFA U.S. SUSTAINABILITY CORE 1
DODGE & COX INTERNATIONAL ST
FIDELITY ADVISOR REAL EST CL A
FIDELITY REAL ESTATE IDX INSTL
HOTCHKIS AND WILEY SML CP VL I
JP MORGAN EMRGING MRKTS EQT R6
MFS INTL NEW DISCOVERY FD CL A
MFS VALUE FUND CL A
VANGUARD EXPLORER FUND
VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST


BOND/FIXED INCOME

DODGE & COX INCOME
MFS EMERGING MARKETS DBT CL A
PIMCO INCOME FUND CL A
PIMCO TOTAL RETURN ESG CL A
STATE STREET TIPS INDEX CL A
VANGUARD HIGH YIELD CORPORATE
VANGUARD INSTL TOTAL BND ID TR
VANGUARD INTER TREAS INDX INST
VANGUARD SHRT TRM BD INDX INST

MONEY MARKET
BLACKROCK FEDFUND INSTL CL
VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST is what you want. It is probably a Collective Investment Trust, which are perfectly safe:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Collect ... ent_Trusts
orklc
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:35 am

Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by orklc »

In addition to the 500 index trust, you likely want these two:

BLACKROCK EXTENDED FD CL K
BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M

The extended is what you add to the s&p500 fund to get total stock market, and the other is your international fund.
wetgear
Posts: 369
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by wetgear »

BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M

This may be your best international fund. What is its ER?
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retired@50
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by retired@50 »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pm I'm trying to approximate the total stock market and international stock market but the selection of funds I have is giving me some trouble.

There's a VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST, but I'm not sure of the implications of this trust fund. In addition, it doesn't seem like I have much for approximating the international stock market.

Anyone have any advice on how to approach this?
If this were my plan, I'd dig into the details around the funds shown below...
For international stock:
BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M
AMERICAN EUROPACIFIC GROWTH R6
DODGE & COX INTERNATIONAL ST

For US Stock:
BLACKROCK EXTENDED FD CL K
VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST

For Bonds:
VANGUARD INSTL TOTAL BND ID TR

To get the details on these funds, you'll probably have to login to the 401k website, maybe download some PDFs that describe each fund, or something like that. Without ticker symbols, the forum can only sort of guess about the details and expense ratios you'll be forced to pay.

I suspect that the Blackrock fund for US Stock is what's known as an extended market index, which would be a nice compliment to the S&P 500 fund, since the extended market index contains all the stocks NOT in the S&P 500 fund.

I suspect that the Blackrock fund for International stock tracks the All-Country World Index excluding the USA.

See if you can verify my hunches by reading your 401k website. Also, don't forget to look for expense ratios for all the funds.

Regards,
Last edited by retired@50 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
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celia
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by celia »

Your tax-deferred accounts are not supposed to be mirroring the stock market. They’re supposed to hold your bonds, as one part of making your whole portfolio tax-efficient.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... _placement

Put stock funds in Roth instead, to maximize tax-free growth there, and the rest in taxable, where qualified dividends are taxed more favorably than bond interest is taxed.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
Topic Author
wbadbada
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by wbadbada »

I see BLACKROCK mentioned among the posts so far, but can't seem to find Morningstar tables for those funds.

How can I go about making sure I approximate closely with those?
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retired@50
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by retired@50 »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:46 pm How can I go about making sure I approximate closely with those?
From my earlier post.
retired@50 wrote: To get the details on these funds, you'll probably have to login to the 401k website, maybe download some PDFs that describe each fund, or something like that. Without ticker symbols, the forum can only sort of guess about the details and expense ratios you'll be forced to pay.
Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Topic Author
wbadbada
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by wbadbada »

wetgear wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 pm BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M

This may be your best international fund. What is its ER?
It's 0.10%.
retired@50 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:48 pm
wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:46 pm How can I go about making sure I approximate closely with those?
From my earlier post.
retired@50 wrote: To get the details on these funds, you'll probably have to login to the 401k website, maybe download some PDFs that describe each fund, or something like that. Without ticker symbols, the forum can only sort of guess about the details and expense ratios you'll be forced to pay.
Regards,
There's a Morningstar box with no numbers and when I search its' ticker (BEEMT), nothing really pops up on Google. ER is 0.06%.

So, I'm not sure how much to allocate b/w the Vanguard 500 and this Blackrock one.
lazynovice
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by lazynovice »

Here is what I could find on BEEMT:

https://www.troweprice.com/document-dis ... /XMKTF.pdf

The wiki helps you with the proper weighting:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Approxi ... ock_market
“I didn’t want my sailboat to be in the driveway when I died.” Nomadland
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retired@50
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by retired@50 »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:27 pm
wetgear wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 pm BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M

This may be your best international fund. What is its ER?
It's 0.10%.
retired@50 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:48 pm
wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:46 pm How can I go about making sure I approximate closely with those?
From my earlier post.
retired@50 wrote: To get the details on these funds, you'll probably have to login to the 401k website, maybe download some PDFs that describe each fund, or something like that. Without ticker symbols, the forum can only sort of guess about the details and expense ratios you'll be forced to pay.
Regards,
There's a Morningstar box with no numbers and when I search its' ticker (BEEMT), nothing really pops up on Google. ER is 0.06%.

So, I'm not sure how much to allocate b/w the Vanguard 500 and this Blackrock one.
To mimic the US stock market, I'd use 75% S&P 500 Fund and the remaining 25% into the Blackrock Extended Market Index fund.
Since you provided the ticker (BEEMT) I was able to find this PDF: https://www.troweprice.com/document-dis ... /XMKTF.pdf

That PDF stated that the index the BEEMT fund follows is the Dow Jones US Completion Total Stock Market Index, which is described here:
https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indic ... /#overview

From the spglobal link above:
spglobal wrote: The Dow Jones U.S. Completion Total Stock Market Index is a subindex of the Dow Jones U.S. Total Stock Market Index that excludes components of the S&P 500®.
Incidentally, I'd use the Blackrock International fund mentioned above too. An ER of .10% is good for an international fund.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Doc7
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by Doc7 »

Just use 80/20 500 to Extended market, or 81/19 if you want to be precise.
wetgear
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by wetgear »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:27 pm
wetgear wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:14 pm BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M

This may be your best international fund. What is its ER?
It's 0.10%.
That's plenty acceptable for your international holdings.
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Duckie
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by Duckie »

wbadbada wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pm There's a VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST, but I'm not sure of the implications of this trust fund. In addition, it doesn't seem like I have much for approximating the international stock market.

Anyone have any advice on how to approach this?
Without knowing your plan expense ratios the best options appear to be:
  • VANGUARD INSTL 500 IDX TRUST -- Large caps, 80% of US stocks
  • BLACKROCK EXTENDED FD CL K -- Mid/small caps, 20% of US stocks
  • BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX CL M -- Almost complete international stocks
  • VANGUARD INSTL TOTAL BND ID TR -- US bonds
The equivalent retail mutual funds with tickers would be:
  • (VFIAX) Vanguard 500 Index Fund
  • (VEXAX) Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund
  • (VFWAX) Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Index Fund
  • (VBTLX) Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund
ivgrivchuck
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by ivgrivchuck »

celia wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:18 pm Your tax-deferred accounts are not supposed to be mirroring the stock market. They’re supposed to hold your bonds, as one part of making your whole portfolio tax-efficient.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... _placement
That advice is very situation dependent. In the era of low interest rates tax efficiency is no longer as big of a factor as it used to be.

For a young person holding bonds/cash, their primary function is to carry over recession/unemployment or some other personal disaster. Having bonds stuck in IRA is defeating part of their purpose.

For small and medium portfolios, I-bonds are only available in taxable, and they are very good compared to other bonds.

So, for people with very large IRAs near retirement, bonds belong to IRA.

For young people with aggressive stock allocation, I would argue that more often than not taxable is the right choice.
40% VTI | 40% VXUS | 13% I-bonds | 7% EE-bonds
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asset_chaos
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by asset_chaos »

If I understand correctly, you're trying to approximate both the US total stock market and ex-US total stock market. The simplest thing seems to be to mix the Blackrock all country world index fund and the Vanguard 500 fund. Blackrock ACWI holds both the US total stock market and ex-US total stock market at global market weight. If global market weight is satisfactory, that's the only fund you need. If you want a different split between US and ex-US, then add the 500 fund to get whatever ratio you want. As an example, as the global fund is currently about 60/40 US/ex-US, if you wanted 70/30 US/ex-US, you'd put 75% of your money into the global fund and 25% of your money into the 500 fund.

If you want to get fancy and add a completion index fund to the 500 fund to get a little closer to the total US market, fine, but the 3rd fund isn't going to be much. In the example above, as total market is about 80/20 500/completion, 20% of your money goes into the 500 fund and 5% goes into the completion fund. Personally I'd prefer the simpler portfolio than the bother of having 5% in another fund, but you have to suit yourself.
Regards, | | Guy
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asset_chaos
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Re: Having trouble approximating stock market with my 401k funds

Post by asset_chaos »

Wait, I may have misinterpreted the Blackrock fund. It just says BLACKROCK MSCI ACWI EX; ex without saying what the ex is. I missed that. In that case the blackrock fund and the 500 fund in whatever ratio you want.
Regards, | | Guy
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