TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

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Topic Author
Bwater
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TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

Hi there,
Newbie here.
I have a Roth at Vanguard, 100% in VTSAX.
I have a new Roth at Fidelity via the mega backdoor Roth, with $ in Fido's money market, waiting to be invested. I auto-contribute to this account monthly.
I have TDF in my tax-deferring account which I auto-invest monthly via payroll deduction (correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is I don't need to worry about wash sale with a TDF).
In my taxable, I hold mostly VTI with some VXUS.
I realize I may run into a wash sale situation in this set up. The majority of my equity holding is in taxable (ie. VTI). I may use ITOT (or VOO) as the TLH partner for VTI. I am thinking maybe I should switch VTSAX to VFIAX in my Roth? Any suggestion about what to hold in Fidelity Roth? Would prefer a MF to a ETF for auto-investing.
Would appreciate any feedback/recommendation.TIA!
Last edited by Bwater on Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
123
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by 123 »

Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
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KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

In order to TLH in your taxable account, you need 2 funds/ETF.

So, for your taxable account, you should pick VTSAX/VTI and VFIAX/VOOV. To avoid WASH sale, you could pick VTWAX in your Roth IRA. Aka, total world index fund = USA + International. Then, you have no possibility of WASH sale.

KlangFool
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Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

123 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
Thanks!
atdharris
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by atdharris »

You could also do things like buy the Russell 3000 to replace Total Stock Market. I've done that before. It depends on what options you have.
KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 pm
123 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
Thanks!
Bwater,

Please note that this does not work.

In order for you to TLH, you need to sell your VTI in your taxable account and buy something else equivalent. The logical choice is VOOV/VFIAX. If you keep VFIAX/VOOV, in your Roth IRA, you cannot do it without causing WASH sale problem.

You need two funds for TLH in your taxable account. Who or what is your TLH partner for VTI in your taxable account?

VTWAX in your Roth IRA avoid all problems.

KlangFool
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Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm OP,

In order to TLH in your taxable account, you need 2 funds/ETF.

So, for your taxable account, you should pick VTSAX/VTI and VFIAX/VOOV. To avoid WASH sale, you could pick VTWAX in your Roth IRA. Aka, total world index fund = USA + International. Then, you have no possibility of WASH sale.

KlangFool
Hi KlangFool,
So nice to hear from you again!
I am keeping VXUS in taxable as my thinking was to capture foreign trade credit (even though it probably is minuscule in my case right now).
I want to make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying to use VTI and VOO as TLH partner in my taxable when I do TLH in the future?
AlwaysaQ
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by AlwaysaQ »

I have VTSAX and VFIAX in taxable. VFIAX came about when doing tax loss harvesting. In my traditional and Roth IRAs, which are at Fidelity, I have FNILX which is Fidelity Zero Large Cap. The good thing about FNILX is that it only has made distribution in late December so relatively easy to turn off automatic reinvestment of distribution if necessary.
KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:27 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm OP,

In order to TLH in your taxable account, you need 2 funds/ETF.

So, for your taxable account, you should pick VTSAX/VTI and VFIAX/VOOV. To avoid WASH sale, you could pick VTWAX in your Roth IRA. Aka, total world index fund = USA + International. Then, you have no possibility of WASH sale.

KlangFool
Hi KlangFool,
So nice to hear from you again!
I am keeping VXUS in taxable as my thinking was to capture foreign trade credit (even though it probably is minuscule in my case right now).
I want to make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying to use VTI and VOO as TLH partner in my taxable when I do TLH in the future?
Bwater,

Correct! And, in order to do that, you cannot have either VTSAX or VFIAX in your Roth IRA. They are equivalent to your ETF. So, use VTWAX in your Roth IRA.

<<I am keeping VXUS in taxable as my thinking was to capture foreign trade credit (even though it probably is minuscule in my case right now).>>

And, you could TLH VXUS in your taxable account too. I use VTIAX/VFWAX for that purpose.

KlangFool
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iceport
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by iceport »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 pm Correct! And, in order to do that, you cannot have either VTSAX or VFIAX in your Roth IRA. They are equivalent to your ETF. So, use VTWAX in your Roth IRA.
Just to be clear, the OP would be perfectly fine "having" either VTSAX or VFIAX — or both — in the Roth IRA.

The only constraint is on *purchasing new shares within the 61-day wash sale window*. The OP could not do that.

But as long as dividends and capital gain distributions are *NOT reinvested*, and the funds are not actively receiving new contributions, the holdings themselves would not present an issue.
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein
KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:10 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 pm Correct! And, in order to do that, you cannot have either VTSAX or VFIAX in your Roth IRA. They are equivalent to your ETF. So, use VTWAX in your Roth IRA.
Just to be clear, the OP would be perfectly fine "having" either VTSAX or VFIAX — or both — in the Roth IRA.

The only constraint is on *purchasing new shares within the 61-day wash sale window*. The OP could not do that.

But as long as dividends and capital gain distributions are *NOT reinvested*, and the funds are not actively receiving new contributions, the holdings themselves would not present an issue.
iceport,

Versus buying VTWAX in Roth IRA and avoid all possible WASH sale problem. I believe it is a simpler and better solution.

KlangFool
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iceport
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by iceport »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:13 pm
iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:10 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 pm Correct! And, in order to do that, you cannot have either VTSAX or VFIAX in your Roth IRA. They are equivalent to your ETF. So, use VTWAX in your Roth IRA.
Just to be clear, the OP would be perfectly fine "having" either VTSAX or VFIAX — or both — in the Roth IRA.

The only constraint is on *purchasing new shares within the 61-day wash sale window*. The OP could not do that.

But as long as dividends and capital gain distributions are *NOT reinvested*, and the funds are not actively receiving new contributions, the holdings themselves would not present an issue.
iceport,

Versus buying VTWAX in Roth IRA and avoid all possible WASH sale problem. I believe it is a simpler and better solution.

KlangFool
Yes. Much simpler.

It's difficult to give specific advice, though, without seeing the whole picture...
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:20 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:13 pm
iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:10 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 pm Correct! And, in order to do that, you cannot have either VTSAX or VFIAX in your Roth IRA. They are equivalent to your ETF. So, use VTWAX in your Roth IRA.
Just to be clear, the OP would be perfectly fine "having" either VTSAX or VFIAX — or both — in the Roth IRA.

The only constraint is on *purchasing new shares within the 61-day wash sale window*. The OP could not do that.

But as long as dividends and capital gain distributions are *NOT reinvested*, and the funds are not actively receiving new contributions, the holdings themselves would not present an issue.
iceport,

Versus buying VTWAX in Roth IRA and avoid all possible WASH sale problem. I believe it is a simpler and better solution.

KlangFool
Yes. Much simpler.

It's difficult to give specific advice, though, without seeing the whole picture...
Correct! But, because of foreign tax credit and TLH opportunity and so on. It is better to split US versus International in the taxable account. So, if someone combined US and International in the tax-advantaged accounts via VTWAX, they could avoid all WASH SALE problem.

With a consistent strategy and vision, it is easier to solve all problems.

It took me several years before I evolved into the current solution.

KlangFool
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Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 pm
123 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
Thanks!
Bwater,

Please note that this does not work.

In order for you to TLH, you need to sell your VTI in your taxable account and buy something else equivalent. The logical choice is VOOV/VFIAX. If you keep VFIAX/VOOV, in your Roth IRA, you cannot do it without causing WASH sale problem.

You need two funds for TLH in your taxable account. Who or what is your TLH partner for VTI in your taxable account?

VTWAX in your Roth IRA avoid all problems.

KlangFool
Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
retiredjg
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by retiredjg »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm I realize I may run into a wash sale situation in this set up. The majority of my equity holding is in taxable (ie. VTI). I am thinking maybe I should switch VTSAX to VFIAX in my Roth?
That is what I would do.

Keep Total Stock Index in taxable and use Large Cap index as its TLH partner. In all the other accounts, I'd use 500 index. I would supplement it with Extended Market Index, but that is optional.

This plan works if it turns out that 401k plans are included in the wash sales. At this point, nobody knows but it does not hurt to be on the safe side when all other things are equal.

Any suggestion about what to hold in Fidelity Roth? Would prefer a MF to a ETF for auto-investing.
500 index.
livesoft
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by livesoft »

I easily avoid wash sales by looking at what I am doing on the rare occasion when I wish to sell shares at a loss in a taxable account. I don't go out of my way to do anything special in any of my accounts ahead of time. I know a wash sale when I see one and I know a sale when it is not a wash sale and I know when a purchase would create a wash sale, so I don't make that purchase if it would create
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by livesoft »

I easily avoid wash sales by looking at what I am doing on the rare occasion when I wish to sell shares at a loss in a taxable account. I don't go out of my way to do anything special in any of my accounts ahead of time. I know a wash sale when I see one and I know a sale when it is not a wash sale and I know when a purchase would create a wash sale, so I don't make that purchase if it would create
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by livesoft »

I easily avoid wash sales by looking at what I am doing on the rare occasion when I wish to sell shares at a loss in a taxable account. I don't go out of my way to do anything special in any of my accounts ahead of time. I know a wash sale when I see one and I know a sale when it is not a wash sale and I know when a purchase would create a wash sale, so I don't make that purchase if it would create a wash sale out of a recent sale.

That is, it is not like selling at a loss is an automatic thing that one has no control over. Indeed, it is something that happens so rarely that one can avoid any wash sales related to it with ease.
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:54 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 pm
123 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
Thanks!
Bwater,

Please note that this does not work.

In order for you to TLH, you need to sell your VTI in your taxable account and buy something else equivalent. The logical choice is VOOV/VFIAX. If you keep VFIAX/VOOV, in your Roth IRA, you cannot do it without causing WASH sale problem.

You need two funds for TLH in your taxable account. Who or what is your TLH partner for VTI in your taxable account?

VTWAX in your Roth IRA avoid all problems.

KlangFool
Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
Are you sure that it is not using the same stock index as VTI?

KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by iceport »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:06 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:54 pm Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
Are you sure that it is not using the same stock index as VTI?

KlangFool
Tough call...

Wash sale question- are ITOT and VTI Substantially Identical?
"Discipline matters more than allocation.” ─William Bernstein
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:44 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:06 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:54 pm Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
Are you sure that it is not using the same stock index as VTI?

KlangFool
Tough call...

Wash sale question- are ITOT and VTI Substantially Identical?
And, I do not understand why folks like to create problem instead of taking an easier route.

VTWAX in the Roth IRA. VTSAX/VTI versus VFIAX/VOO in taxable will avoid all possible problems.

K.I.S.S.

KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by bertilak »

I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
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iceport
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by iceport »

bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:58 pm I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
That's a creative and effective way to do it! There are many more ways than one to skin the TLH cat.

The timing matters, though, correct? Sell in the tax-advantaged account first, to eliminate potential replacement shares.

I don't even believe it's necessary to sell all shares of a substantially identical fund in the tax-advantaged account, only what's been purchased in the wash sale period. But I can't seem to get much traction with that concept around here. It's perfectly logical to me. And this is a perfect illustration of why it's so critical to understand what the wash sale legislation was created to do, and what it wasn't created to do. If a 61-day window is all the wash sale rule covers outside of a tax-advantaged account, I can't for the life of me figure out why the wash sale period suddenly extends to "forever" long ago inside of one. (Yes, I know the technicality, but still don't buy that it affects what the wash sale legislation was created to address. And I would feel perfectly comfortable making that very case to the IRS...)
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:58 pm I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
bertilak,

Why do the person want to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in both accounts: taxable and Roth if the goal is to TLH VTSAX with VFIAX in the taxable account? There is no reason to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in the Roth IRA.

KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by bertilak »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:38 pm
bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:58 pm I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
bertilak,

Why do the person want to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in both accounts: taxable and Roth if the goal is to TLH VTSAX with VFIAX in the taxable account? There is no reason to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in the Roth IRA.

KlangFool
To prevent wash sales due to automatic reinvestments?

In my case I also wanted to limit the number of unique holdings (funds) I have.
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:50 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:38 pm
bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:58 pm I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
bertilak,

Why do the person want to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in both accounts: taxable and Roth if the goal is to TLH VTSAX with VFIAX in the taxable account? There is no reason to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in the Roth IRA.

KlangFool
To prevent wash sales due to automatic reinvestments?

In my case I also wanted to limit the number of unique holdings (funds) I have.
And, the problem could be totally solved easily by holding VTWAX (Total World Index Fund) in your tax-advantaged accounts. It is simpler and it reduces the number of unique holding.

KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by bertilak »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:56 pm
bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:50 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:38 pm
bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:58 pm I am a bit confused by the TLH advice not to hold the same fund in multiple accounts. If you are going to swap (e.g. VTSAX with VFIAX) just do it everywhere. That doesn't introduce any additional difficulties as far as wash sales. I have done this myself.

What am I missing?
bertilak,

Why do the person want to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in both accounts: taxable and Roth if the goal is to TLH VTSAX with VFIAX in the taxable account? There is no reason to swap VTSAX with VFIAX in the Roth IRA.

KlangFool
To prevent wash sales due to automatic reinvestments?

In my case I also wanted to limit the number of unique holdings (funds) I have.
And, the problem could be totally solved easily by holding VTWAX (Total World Index Fund) in your tax-advantaged accounts. It is simpler and it reduces the number of unique holding.

KlangFool
Lost me. How does changing my FTSAX to VTWAX reduce the number of unique holdings?

Or do you mean drop two (Total Stock, Total international) and use just one (Total World)? I don't do this for he same reason I don't hold a single balanced fund. Maybe someday I'll take that step but for now I prefer to set my own AA and control fund placement across taxable and tax deferred.
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Duckie »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm In my taxable, I hold mostly VTI with some VXUS.
I realize I may run into a wash sale situation in this set up. The majority of my equity holding is in taxable (ie. VTI). I may use ITOT (or VOO) as the TLH partner for VTI. I am thinking maybe I should switch VTSAX to VFIAX in my Roth? Any suggestion about what to hold in Fidelity Roth? Would prefer a MF to a ETF for auto-investing.
Here is a list of possible Tax-Loss Harvest (TLH) retail partners with the indexes they follow:
  • US Total Stock
    • VTSAX (VTI) - CRSP US Total Market Index
    • SCHB - Dow Jones US Broad Market Index
    • ITOT - S&P Total Market Index
    • IWV, VTHR, TIEIX, BKTSX - Russell 3000 Index
    • SWSTX, FSKAX - Dow Jones US Total Stock Market Index
    • FZROX - Fidelity US Total Investable Market Index
    • SPTM - S&P Composite 1500 Index
  • US Large Cap
    • VFIAX (VOO), IVV, SPY, FXAIX, SWPPX - S&P 500 Index
    • VLCAX (VV) - CRSP US Large Cap Index
    • IWB, VONE - Russell 1000 Index
    • SCHX - Dow Jones US Large-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • SCHK, SNXFX - Schwab 1000 Index
    • FNILX - Fidelity US Large Cap Index
    • MGC - CRSP US Mega Cap Index
  • US Mid/Small Cap (aka Extended Market)
    • VEXAX (VXF) - S&P Completion Index
    • SSMKX - Russell Small Cap Completeness Index
    • FSMAX - Dow Jones U.S. Completion Total Stock Market Index
    • USMIX - Wilshire 4500 Completion Index
  • US Mid Cap
    • VIMAX (VO) - CRSP US Mid Cap Index
    • IVOO, IJH, SPMD - S&P MidCap 400 Index
    • SCHM - Dow Jones US Mid-Cap Total Stock Market Index.
    • FSMDX - Russell Mid Cap Index
  • US Small Cap
    • VSMAX (VB) - CRSP US Small Cap Index
    • IJR, SLY - S&P SmallCap 600 Index
    • SCHA - Dow Jones US Small-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • FSSNX - Russell 2000 Index
  • International
    • VTIAX (VXUS) - FTSE Global All Cap ex US Index
    • VFWAX (VEU) - FTSE All-World ex US Index
    • FTIHX, IXUS - MSCI ACWI ex USA IMI Index
    • FSGGX - MSCI ACWI ex USA Index
    • FZILX - Fidelity Global ex US Index
    • VTMGX (VEA) - FTSE Developed All Cap ex US Index
    • SCHF - FTSE Developed ex US Index
    • IEFA - MSCI EAFE Investable Market Index
    • EFA, SWISX, FSPSX - MSCI EAFE Index
To me, if they follow a different index there is no chance of a wash sale.
KlangFool
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by KlangFool »

bertilak wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:14 pm
Or do you mean drop two (Total Stock, Total international) and use just one (Total World)?
Correct! And, only do that for your tax-advantaged accounts. And, you only split Total Stock and Total world in your taxable account.

KlangFool
40% VWENX | 12.5% VFWAX/VTIAX | 11.5% VTSAX | 16% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 40% Wellington 40% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:06 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:54 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 pm
123 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm Vanguard 500 Index (VFIAX) is a reasonable substitute for Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX) that you could use in retirement accounts to avoid any conflicts with Vanguard Total Stock Market (VTSAX or VTI) in your taxable accounts if you want to avoid any issue of wash sale conflicts.
Thanks!
Bwater,

Please note that this does not work.

In order for you to TLH, you need to sell your VTI in your taxable account and buy something else equivalent. The logical choice is VOOV/VFIAX. If you keep VFIAX/VOOV, in your Roth IRA, you cannot do it without causing WASH sale problem.

You need two funds for TLH in your taxable account. Who or what is your TLH partner for VTI in your taxable account?

VTWAX in your Roth IRA avoid all problems.

KlangFool
Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
Are you sure that it is not using the same stock index as VTI?

I am not sure, especially after reading Iceport's post. It looks like Large cap or S&P 500 is the way to go as a TLH partner for VTI.

KlangFool
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

iceport wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:44 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:06 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:54 pm Hi KlangFool,
Sorry I somehow missed this post.
I was considering ITOT as the TLH partner for the VTI in taxable. I should edit my original post.
Are you sure that it is not using the same stock index as VTI?

KlangFool
Tough call...

Wash sale question- are ITOT and VTI Substantially Identical?
thanks for sharing the post, good read.
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

Duckie wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:23 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm In my taxable, I hold mostly VTI with some VXUS.
I realize I may run into a wash sale situation in this set up. The majority of my equity holding is in taxable (ie. VTI). I may use ITOT (or VOO) as the TLH partner for VTI. I am thinking maybe I should switch VTSAX to VFIAX in my Roth? Any suggestion about what to hold in Fidelity Roth? Would prefer a MF to a ETF for auto-investing.
Here is a list of possible Tax-Loss Harvest (TLH) retail partners with the indexes they follow:
  • US Total Stock
    • VTSAX (VTI) - CRSP US Total Market Index
    • SCHB - Dow Jones US Broad Market Index
    • ITOT - S&P Total Market Index
    • IWV, VTHR, TIEIX, BKTSX - Russell 3000 Index
    • SWSTX, FSKAX - Dow Jones US Total Stock Market Index
    • FZROX - Fidelity US Total Investable Market Index
    • SPTM - S&P Composite 1500 Index
  • US Large Cap
    • VFIAX (VOO), IVV, SPY, FXAIX, SWPPX - S&P 500 Index
    • VLCAX (VV) - CRSP US Large Cap Index
    • IWB, VONE - Russell 1000 Index
    • SCHX - Dow Jones US Large-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • SCHK, SNXFX - Schwab 1000 Index
    • FNILX - Fidelity US Large Cap Index
    • MGC - CRSP US Mega Cap Index
  • US Mid/Small Cap (aka Extended Market)
    • VEXAX (VXF) - S&P Completion Index
    • SSMKX - Russell Small Cap Completeness Index
    • FSMAX - Dow Jones U.S. Completion Total Stock Market Index
    • USMIX - Wilshire 4500 Completion Index
  • US Mid Cap
    • VIMAX (VO) - CRSP US Mid Cap Index
    • IVOO, IJH, SPMD - S&P MidCap 400 Index
    • SCHM - Dow Jones US Mid-Cap Total Stock Market Index.
    • FSMDX - Russell Mid Cap Index
  • US Small Cap
    • VSMAX (VB) - CRSP US Small Cap Index
    • IJR, SLY - S&P SmallCap 600 Index
    • SCHA - Dow Jones US Small-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • FSSNX - Russell 2000 Index
  • International
    • VTIAX (VXUS) - FTSE Global All Cap ex US Index
    • VFWAX (VEU) - FTSE All-World ex US Index
    • FTIHX, IXUS - MSCI ACWI ex USA IMI Index
    • FSGGX - MSCI ACWI ex USA Index
    • FZILX - Fidelity Global ex US Index
    • VTMGX (VEA) - FTSE Developed All Cap ex US Index
    • SCHF - FTSE Developed ex US Index
    • IEFA - MSCI EAFE Investable Market Index
    • EFA, SWISX, FSPSX - MSCI EAFE Index
To me, if they follow a different index there is no chance of a wash sale.
This is super helpful, Duckie, thanks so much!
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

livesoft wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:16 pm I easily avoid wash sales by looking at what I am doing on the rare occasion when I wish to sell shares at a loss in a taxable account. I don't go out of my way to do anything special in any of my accounts ahead of time. I know a wash sale when I see one and I know a sale when it is not a wash sale and I know when a purchase would create a wash sale, so I don't make that purchase if it would create a wash sale out of a recent sale.

That is, it is not like selling at a loss is an automatic thing that one has no control over. Indeed, it is something that happens so rarely that one can avoid any wash sales related to it with ease.
Hi livesoft,
I appreciate your approach. As a newbie, I am on the anxious side and may overthink at times (or not really think through it). Would you share what your TLH partners are? Thanks!
ivgrivchuck
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by ivgrivchuck »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:27 pm I am keeping VXUS in taxable as my thinking was to capture foreign trade credit (even though it probably is minuscule in my case right now).
Note that VXUS has more non-qualified dividends than VTI, so it gets more tax benefits when placed in a retirement account.

So whether vxus belongs to taxable or to IRA is subject to an endless debate (it is really close!).
40% VTI | 40% VXUS | 13% I-bonds | 7% EE-bonds
ivgrivchuck
Posts: 798
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by ivgrivchuck »

Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm Would appreciate any feedback/recommendation.TIA!
What I do:

401k (limited choices of funds), Roth IRA: VOO, VEA, VWO (to approximate the total market)

Taxable: VTI,VXUS. If I need to do tax loss harvesting: ITOT, IXUS.
40% VTI | 40% VXUS | 13% I-bonds | 7% EE-bonds
livesoft
Posts: 76840
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by livesoft »

Bwater wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 amHi livesoft,
I appreciate your approach. As a newbie, I am on the anxious side and may overthink at times (or not really think through it). Would you share what your TLH partners are? Thanks!
VV and VTI
VEA and VEU (Note: VXUS did not exist when I started using these and I keep VSS in tax-advantaged accounts)
IJS and VBR and AVUV
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

ivgrivchuck wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:17 am
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm Would appreciate any feedback/recommendation.TIA!
What I do:

401k (limited choices of funds), Roth IRA: VOO, VEA, VWO (to approximate the total market)

Taxable: VTI,VXUS. If I need to do tax loss harvesting: ITOT, IXUS.
Thanks, that is what I was thinking.
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

livesoft wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:55 am
Bwater wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 amHi livesoft,
I appreciate your approach. As a newbie, I am on the anxious side and may overthink at times (or not really think through it). Would you share what your TLH partners are? Thanks!
VV and VTI
VEA and VEU (Note: VXUS did not exist when I started using these and I keep VSS in tax-advantaged accounts)
IJS and VBR and AVUV
Thanks for sharing , livesoft!
Topic Author
Bwater
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Bwater »

Duckie wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:23 pm
Bwater wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm In my taxable, I hold mostly VTI with some VXUS.
I realize I may run into a wash sale situation in this set up. The majority of my equity holding is in taxable (ie. VTI). I may use ITOT (or VOO) as the TLH partner for VTI. I am thinking maybe I should switch VTSAX to VFIAX in my Roth? Any suggestion about what to hold in Fidelity Roth? Would prefer a MF to a ETF for auto-investing.
Here is a list of possible Tax-Loss Harvest (TLH) retail partners with the indexes they follow:
  • US Total Stock
    • VTSAX (VTI) - CRSP US Total Market Index
    • SCHB - Dow Jones US Broad Market Index
    • ITOT - S&P Total Market Index
    • IWV, VTHR, TIEIX, BKTSX - Russell 3000 Index
    • SWSTX, FSKAX - Dow Jones US Total Stock Market Index
    • FZROX - Fidelity US Total Investable Market Index
    • SPTM - S&P Composite 1500 Index
  • US Large Cap
    • VFIAX (VOO), IVV, SPY, FXAIX, SWPPX - S&P 500 Index
    • VLCAX (VV) - CRSP US Large Cap Index
    • IWB, VONE - Russell 1000 Index
    • SCHX - Dow Jones US Large-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • SCHK, SNXFX - Schwab 1000 Index
    • FNILX - Fidelity US Large Cap Index
    • MGC - CRSP US Mega Cap Index
  • US Mid/Small Cap (aka Extended Market)
    • VEXAX (VXF) - S&P Completion Index
    • SSMKX - Russell Small Cap Completeness Index
    • FSMAX - Dow Jones U.S. Completion Total Stock Market Index
    • USMIX - Wilshire 4500 Completion Index
  • US Mid Cap
    • VIMAX (VO) - CRSP US Mid Cap Index
    • IVOO, IJH, SPMD - S&P MidCap 400 Index
    • SCHM - Dow Jones US Mid-Cap Total Stock Market Index.
    • FSMDX - Russell Mid Cap Index
  • US Small Cap
    • VSMAX (VB) - CRSP US Small Cap Index
    • IJR, SLY - S&P SmallCap 600 Index
    • SCHA - Dow Jones US Small-Cap Total Stock Market Index
    • FSSNX - Russell 2000 Index
  • International
    • VTIAX (VXUS) - FTSE Global All Cap ex US Index
    • VFWAX (VEU) - FTSE All-World ex US Index
    • FTIHX, IXUS - MSCI ACWI ex USA IMI Index
    • FSGGX - MSCI ACWI ex USA Index
    • FZILX - Fidelity Global ex US Index
    • VTMGX (VEA) - FTSE Developed All Cap ex US Index
    • SCHF - FTSE Developed ex US Index
    • IEFA - MSCI EAFE Investable Market Index
    • EFA, SWISX, FSPSX - MSCI EAFE Index
To me, if they follow a different index there is no chance of a wash sale.
btw, Duckie, would you mind sharing your TLH partners?
Strifey
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Strifey »

I personally use VTI, SCHB, and ITOT as my TLH partners with SPTM if I ever needed it (although I have not needed to TLH into a 4th fund in a 30 day window). I prefer to use ETFs in my taxable so I can have immediate trades and not wait for the end of day to settle.

These funds seem to be common as TLH partners when I was googling it and reading various threads both on bogleheads and other forums.

I only keep FSKAX in my Roth IRA. I keep bonds and total international in my 401K.
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Duckie
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Re: TLH planning Q across accounts: VTI in taxable and VTSAX in Roth

Post by Duckie »

Bwater wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:34 pm btw, Duckie, would you mind sharing your TLH partners?
I don't TLH. I just read about it on this forum. I have sold for a loss in the past but that was to clean up my portfolio, not specifically to TLH.
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