Search found 34549 matches

by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:05 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Amazon won't sell this book to me.
Replies: 68
Views: 8170

Re: Amazon won't sell this book to me.

I have always felt that IF an individual had a better employment opportunity other than working for (insert name of your choice) then surely they would exercise their freedom to seek other employment. I agree in theory but see just the opposite in practice. Many people exhibit inertia and avoid cha...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:14 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?
Replies: 81
Views: 4734

Re: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?

Some other thoughts. 1) think in general you want to reduce your mortgage, your home property leverage over time. You start out at 5x leveraged as you say-ie 20% down payment or 20% equity. Arguably by the time you retire you should be 100% equity or 0x leveraged. 2) that does not necessarily mean ...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:03 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?
Replies: 81
Views: 4734

Re: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?

The book Successful investing is a process has a pretty good chapter on the effects of volatility drag on leveraged stock investments. https://www.amazon.com/Successful-Investing-Process-Structuring-Outperformance/dp/1118459903/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531621273&sr=8-1&keywords=successful+investing+...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:38 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?
Replies: 81
Views: 4734

Re: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?

They argue that margin is probably the cheapest way to accomplish it but in tax-advantaged accounts you could use an ETF like ProShares UltraPro S&P500 as part of a portfolio to achieve 1.5x or 2x leverage for extended periods of time. I strongly disagree with using ultra funds for leverage. You ar...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:36 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?
Replies: 81
Views: 4734

Re: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?

A mortgage for a home is backed by the property itself. What is a margin loan backed by? I would think it isn’t the stock itself, but your financial accounts. So you can’t pay the loan for the house? You lose the house, but not your money (at least in a non-recourse state). A margin loan is called ...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?
Replies: 81
Views: 4734

Re: Why is leveraging property good but leveraging stocks bad?

I think using reasonable leverage in equity investing is good as a long-term strategy. Link was posted yesterday to an interesting video with Jack Bogle discussing this briefly: https://youtu.be/k6ra5POdsYg?t=623 Investing is to a large degree about managing risk. I agree. In Lifecycle Investing, I...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:14 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Historical U.S. Portfolio Disasters — Wrapping It All Up
Replies: 32
Views: 2276

Re: Historical U.S. Portfolio Disasters — Wrapping It All Up

That's interesting. To be honest I didn't know cash is a good inflation hedge? I always thought the opposite. I think the early 1980s Volker period when the Fed was trying to crush inflation may distort the numbers? Since cash pays the lowest return in the long run it should be a poor inflation hed...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:33 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Direct Real Estate Returns
Replies: 64
Views: 3219

Re: Direct Real Estate Returns

Real estate is unique in that it is one of the few businesses where you can use leverage to invest in a potentially appreciating asset. Wildbill, I've appreciated your posts & insight. Would you clarify the above statement? Seems to me that someone could use leverage to invest in stocks also. Howev...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:23 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: MFs in India [Mutual Funds]
Replies: 7
Views: 605

Re: MFs in India [Mutual Funds]

hi all, I am looking for advice on MF investing in India. I am new to investing and John Bogle's ideas. The last 3 months have been eye opening to say the least. I live in the US, and I like the index fund approach using vanguard funds. Is it possible to do this in India ? My dad, who is retired, n...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:13 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The value of international stocks, in pictures
Replies: 62
Views: 7042

Re: The value of international stocks, in pictures

Are the Vanguard numbers per cent of total portfolio or just of equities? 30 per cent of 60 per cent equities would be 18 per cent of total portfolio. If the 40 per cent is in US bonds then overall currency risk would probably be bearable. Vanguard's advice is 20% to 40% of equities . As to currenc...
by Valuethinker
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:06 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Looking for EUR holy grail bond strategy
Replies: 71
Views: 4377

Re: Looking for EUR holy grail bond strategy

What do you guys think about global inflation linked bond ETFs? (eg https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile.html?distributionPolicy=distributionPolicy-accumulating&fsg=more100&assetClass=class-bonds®ion=World&groupField=index&from=search&isin=LU0290357929) Would it be useful for a European to inc...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:19 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The value of international stocks, in pictures
Replies: 62
Views: 7042

Re: The value of international stocks, in pictures

Someone will perhaps post the link to the Vanguard study. I can't do so from where I am right now. https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGGEB.pdf Conclusion: In light of quantitative analysis and qualitative considerations, we have demonstrated that domestic investors should consider allocating part of th...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:07 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The value of international stocks, in pictures
Replies: 62
Views: 7042

Re: The value of international stocks, in pictures

So what do all of you recommend for AA for US/international? 80/20? In my brokerage, I’m only 11.7% international. I auto invest a good chunk of money each month, which I have set to 75% VTSAX 25% VTIAX. I’m thinking of maybe doing 50/50 for a while as international is supposed to be a better value...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:34 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Are Bonds Always Safe? — A Second Look at U.S. Portfolio Disasters
Replies: 100
Views: 7352

Re: Are Bonds Always Safe? — A Second Look at U.S. Portfolio Disasters

I quickly cobbled together a somewhat similar analysis for the UK, using inflation-adjusted annual returns. Very nice, siamond. What stands out to me is how severe the Oil and Inflation Shocks of the 1970s were for both UK and US stocks and bonds — and probably for all the other developed nations t...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:31 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Are Bonds Always Safe? — A Second Look at U.S. Portfolio Disasters
Replies: 100
Views: 7352

Re: Are Bonds Always Safe? — A Second Look at U.S. Portfolio Disasters

Would it not be fair to say that 100% TIPS would be the optimal portfolio for capital preservation (in terms of real money); whereas, wouldn't a 50/50 portfolio also provide the possibility for capital growth (real growth) while still giving you the insurance you need against such extreme events? Y...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:10 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Real Estate Investment: Yay or Nay?
Replies: 27
Views: 1881

Re: Real Estate Investment: Yay or Nay?

Seems a bit high, but if it's a high growth area the expectation for some might be in the price appreciation more than the rent. San Francisco saw something like a 12% increase in the first six months of 2018. At that rate, who cares about rent? ... Or even a job... just get into a house and a HELO...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:56 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Six stocks make up 98% of S&P 500 gains in 2018
Replies: 71
Views: 8576

Re: Six stocks make up 98% of S&P 500 gains in 2018

The stock price of Netflix is quite mystery to me. From value investor point of view, the company financial is quite garbage with regard to its near 300 P/E ratio, 15+ years after IPO, still negative free cash flow, still heavy in debt and depends on borrowing for growth instead of internal cash fl...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:42 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Irish-domiciled Small Cap Value
Replies: 2
Views: 199

Re: Irish-domiciled Small Cap Value

I am looking for an Irish-based Small Cap Value ETF. Ideally it is a global one, but worst case I may settle for a US only Small Cap Value. I am no expert in judging which ETF fits the asset class I want, but it seems like I do not have many options. Option 1: Vanguard Global Value Factor UCITS ETF...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:39 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: What recent (last ~8 months) events have changed the total US stock market?
Replies: 14
Views: 1273

Re: What recent (last ~8 months) events have changed the total US stock market?

There have been some drastic swings Is this true? It sure doesn't feel like the movement has been extraordinary. I have not looked at specific data compared to historical norms. I don't see anything "drastic." I've drawn circles by hand around "big swings:" yellow for those that look about the same...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:35 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Which degree to pursue?
Replies: 16
Views: 1136

Re: Which degree to pursue?

Greetings, Good morning everyone, I hope all is well. I am considering going back to school to earn degree in either industrial engineering or operational management, I have a passion for optimizing processes and critical businesses (rail, utilities, logistics, etc.). I currently have a regular bus...
by Valuethinker
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:03 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN..Any advice?
Replies: 62
Views: 4830

Re: Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN..Any advice?

I've lived in MN for much of my life and have only been to Madison as a visitor (probably 8 times.) You write "While I would prefer living in Colorado..." so I will ask if you have been to CO and why it's on your list? Mpls: Great economy for your career. The "MN Nice" is a real thing and sometimes...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:00 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Want to diversify account held in my name [inherited Canadian stock]
Replies: 8
Views: 370

Re: Want to diversify account held in my name [inherited Canadian stock]

This is a simple call for me. I know too much about Canadian housing market and consumer debt load. Both of which are worse than USA in 2006. This will crack and it will not be pretty. Canadian bank stocks, including reinvested dividends, are up something like 10x to 20x over last 25 years. They hav...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:36 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]
Replies: 12
Views: 424

Re: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]

>France's current exit tax system will effectively force you to do that anyways. You will pay tax on an assumed sale when you leave. The problem is that your new country might not count that exit tax payment against taxes owed in that country when you sell there. So, probably best to sell them in a...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:14 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Monthly Water Usage
Replies: 61
Views: 3918

Re: Monthly Water Usage

117,000 gallons every 6-months. Indeed that's a lot. My "environment" friends go crazy when I tell them. Personally, I don't care. My lawn looks fabulous, and 1-hour showers with multiple heads is relaxing. This costs roughly $2,000 per year. Wow Yeah.., he may not care now... but when the local aq...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:46 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Trying to hit grand slam with small % portfolio?
Replies: 49
Views: 3187

Re: Trying to hit grand slam with small % portfolio?

I don’t see why people here object to say 10-20k allowance (from low 7 figure portfolio in mid 40s) to some speculative high risk high reward investments like individual stocks, small cap biotech funds, cryptos, etc. The 10-20k would hardly be noticed if lost, but the upside could pay for a nice va...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:39 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]
Replies: 12
Views: 424

Re: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]

Valuethinker: Thanks for your reply and sharing some of your experience. Regarding the two big issues: 1. MIFID - I was thinking to purchase Ireland or Luxembourg domiciled instruments, which should meet the EU reporting requirements. This was also to avoid any complications with US estate / inheri...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:48 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]
Replies: 12
Views: 424

Re: Portfolio for expat [Australian ex-pat]

Hi 2 big issues First is mifid II. Mostly European brokers can no longer sell you US listed ETFs. Fund has to meet European documentation requirements. Being UK based I use a UK broker and research my funds from iShares. Vanguard UK would be my alternative. Most funds are Ireland domiciled and liste...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:10 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: First Portfolio Ever (Australian ETFs)
Replies: 9
Views: 575

Re: First Portfolio Ever (Australian ETFs)

Hi everyone, I am really new to the investment game and been reading a lot to get myself educated but still have lots to learn! I'm in a place where I am comfortable I understand enough to start investing with an initial $5K, but I would love some advice/feedback on the following portfolio and whet...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:34 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Looking for portfolio advice [Hungary]
Replies: 12
Views: 702

Re: Looking for portfolio advice [Hungary]

The following bond ETFs have piqued my interest: iShares Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF (AGGU) - USD hedged, nice coverage of everything, but includes corporate bonds -> risky. iShares Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF (AGGH) - EUR hedged, otherwise the same. iShares Global Govt Bond UCITS ETF (IGLA...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:47 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"
Replies: 145
Views: 11760

Re: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"

Here is more: John Weinberg, Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond said: Since its inception, the Federal Reserve has been authorized to lend to banks. At first, access to the Federal Reserve Banks’ standard lending facility―known as the “discount window”―was limited to member banks, and collateral was ...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:35 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"
Replies: 145
Views: 11760

Re: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"

This events happen but are temporary in nature. If you believe in current account fund accounting, when the public sector is in deficit then the private sector is in surplus. There are economists who say that the US Public Debt is equal to national savings. There is spirited debate over this. But i...
by Valuethinker
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:11 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Advice For My Side Business - Reselling Used Electronics
Replies: 14
Views: 1326

Re: Advice For My Side Business - Reselling Used Electronics

I did this as my own business when in college, during the early days of eBay when you could still go to pawn shops and thrift stores and score huge scores (more than a few $15 purchases that sold for $700+). Let me set some expectations: 98 percent of stuff that is discarded is for a reason: it has...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: History of U.S. Dividends & Share Buybacks, 1871-2017
Replies: 32
Views: 2028

Re: History of U.S. Dividends & Share Buybacks, 1871-2017

My now vague memory from a Finance class in college (1980-ish, and I didn't always show up) was that dividends were THE WAY to drive stock prices for companies. That assumption would play out with today's retirees expecting large dividends and continuing to buy dividend stocks. It turns out to be t...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:44 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Newbie UK investor hoping to get started. Just lifestrategy?
Replies: 10
Views: 524

Re: Newbie UK investor hoping to get started. Just lifestrategy?

Hey, Hoping to get started with investing, I currently have only a small set of funds set aside to open my account(~£1500), but would be expecting to add £1k/month to the account. Essentially just adding to the fund as opposed to my bank account(I currently have ~2 years living expenses held). Plan...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:34 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: History of U.S. Dividends & Share Buybacks, 1871-2017
Replies: 32
Views: 2028

Re: History of U.S. Dividends & Share Buybacks, 1871-2017

Newbie here. Fascinating post. I can see why the average index fund investor likes dividends. However, I am not sure I understand why share buybacks would benefit those investing in index funds. Is it basically a supply and demand issue? In other words, as companies buy back shares, the overall num...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:12 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: UK Personal Investor reading "The Simple Path to Wealth"
Replies: 10
Views: 670

Re: UK Personal Investor reading "The Simple Path to Wealth"

Americans, with a stock market which is over 50 per cent of the world index can have Home Country Bias without too much effect. The rest of us cannot afford to. We need to own the world index. The US stocks but also everything else. Beware Recency Effect. Post 2008 Crash US stock market has outperfo...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:09 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: UK Personal Investor reading "The Simple Path to Wealth"
Replies: 10
Views: 670

Re: UK Personal Investor reading "The Simple Path to Wealth"

Hello fellow Bogleheads! I'm a UK-based investor and fairly new to it all. I want things to be simple as possible as I have a busy life and frankly not that interested in the intricacies of investing. I read an audiobook called "The Simple Path to Wealth" by JL Collins - he follows the John Bogle p...
by Valuethinker
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:50 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Can I finance a new home abroad (Carribean)???
Replies: 53
Views: 4229

Re: Can I finance a new home abroad (Carribean)???

You can borrow Yen or Euros for 1.5% at IB last I checked, and they convert really easily. You are being sarcastic? Foreign currency mortgages are one of the best ways to wipe oneself out financially. Hungarians did so before the financial crisis. So did Icelanders. Borrow in Euros at 5 per cent no...
by Valuethinker
Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:27 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: hybrid or plug-in electric car
Replies: 70
Views: 3721

Re: hybrid or plug-in electric car

The solar panels on your roof would be a key element. Most electricity is generated by burning coal, so even fully electric cars run on coal. I agree with the first sentence, the second one is out of date on a national basis. I think fossil fuel, not just coal, is the right term. https://www.eia.go...
by Valuethinker
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:43 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How do I fix my heating bill?
Replies: 73
Views: 3286

Re: How do I fix my heating bill?

I think I found my model number in case anyone is interested Coleman THJD60S4146A. Odd thing, google keeps coming up with Luxaire manuals. Getting some HVAC company suggestions now. Hoping they can figure this out! Oh and we will try to not use the baseboards this year as our energy audit also told...
by Valuethinker
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:12 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How do I fix my heating bill?
Replies: 73
Views: 3286

Re: How do I fix my heating bill?

Still going through replies but wanted to add - -We did switch to a smart thermostat in 2017 to try and save money, we wired it ourselves (hooked up like the last one) and nothing changed bill wise. -In the winter of 2016 when the heat pump was just 5 months old, the defroster was not working, the ...
by Valuethinker
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:05 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: What % of your equity is int’l?
Replies: 141
Views: 7476

Re: What % of your equity is int’l?

Jack and Taylor say 20%. Good enough for me. True, but Jack's first line is that it is not necessary, but if you must, no more than 20%. I think he throws that out there because most experts don't agree with him and he admitted at the last Boglehead meeting he hates being asked this question so oft...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:35 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"
Replies: 145
Views: 11760

Re: Treasury Auction - Nobody Came: "Great T-Bill Massacre"

I remember many years ago, I heard an economist speak who was worried about the high deficits that the Reagan administration was running up during the 1980's. Pretty much hearing how the U.S. could go bankrupt and how this was going to hurt the dollar. Stuff like that. At that time, the US was runn...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:15 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates
Replies: 24
Views: 1698

Re: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates

It's amazing the disinformation in the media that leads young people to believe that tariffs are something new. Tariffs have always been around and they've tended to be unequal to the USA, for example US tariffs on European car imports have been 2.5%, while at the same time, European tariffs on US ...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates
Replies: 24
Views: 1698

Re: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates

It's amazing the disinformation in the media that leads young people to believe that tariffs are something new. Tariffs have always been around and they've tended to be unequal to the USA, for example US tariffs on European car imports have been 2.5%, while at the same time, European tariffs on US ...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:47 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How do I fix my heating bill?
Replies: 73
Views: 3286

Re: How do I fix my heating bill?

... My thermostat has "emergency heat" that shows up when it's on but I'm not sure how accurate that is. But during the months of December/January/February, emergency heat is pretty much on at all times that the heat pump is on. That doesn't sound right. Your 2016 heat pump should be carrying the l...
by Valuethinker
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:26 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How do I fix my heating bill?
Replies: 73
Views: 3286

Re: How do I fix my heating bill?

I only have access to electric heat. I live in SW Pennsylvania and leave my thermometer at around 68 in the winter when we are home and the bedrooms are still freezing. We have baseboard heat in the rooms and we also have a heat pump (which obviously runs on emergency heat when it is freezing). Eve...
by Valuethinker
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:39 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates
Replies: 24
Views: 1698

Re: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates

Interesting. Thanks for the input. One off increases in prices eg due to a fall in exchange rates or a rise in tariffs usually don't vex Central Banks. One off is interesting. A one off that is temporary I can understand, but if its a one off that's a 'permanent' increase shouldn't the Central Bank...
by Valuethinker
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:45 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates
Replies: 24
Views: 1698

Re: Tariffs/Inflation/Rates

All, I'm relatively young and haven't been an adult during rising interest rates, inflation and now tariffs. Anyone have any idea how this is going to work out? Will the Tariffs (maybe short lived) increase Inflation, thus causing the Fed to raise interest rates faster? Is there anything we as bogl...
by Valuethinker
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Emerging Markets in Bear Territory
Replies: 52
Views: 7064

Re: Emerging Markets in Bear Territory

Disappointing but true. Last year EM had increased business activity and exports. This year countries with positive equity markets are held back by exchange rates. Why China is down 20% I don't know. No info. Probably look at an international quality index I ran across, if I ever have the time for ...