Bogleheads.org

That’s bc it never works out

By the way I have a 2 million dollar WL policy

Certainly it’s been shown you are not the 1% case. Nothing has been posted to indicate that you would be. It’s your money. Good luck.

Normally you shouldn’t be doing these unless you are at a high tax bracket. The costs just make the tax deferral less valuable. While common recommendations are to put bonds in these things, if you are a sole owner going stocks has advantages. For instance let’s just say I put it all in svb in my 401k then I get wiped out and I cant make up for it. If in my DB then the government says you can try again by increasing my allowed contribution. Now you have to be able to handle that swing which is not like you have to make it up immediately but over a few years. People lament about not being able to put more in after good returns but the truth is it’s still more money in your pocket. You can’t get more than 3.2 million in these at the moment so...

No

What in essence u do is contribute the highest amount u can and that will force the following year to zero required.

That’s why you invest a bunch in 1 year and contribute zero in the other years to the DB. Gives you the max to 401k

Personally I keep a high percentage of both my 401k and DB in stocks.

U also can’t run another one unless it’s a completely different business without considering/reductions for the previous DB

I bet as noted above you didn’t realize loans (sometimes internally to pay premium) or wrong basis estimated.

i dont see that as better personally if you took that 33k difference and invested over 30 years at 6% (i chose that bc schwab CDs are currently over 5 on another thread so just some number that personally i think is a reasonable assumption) then its about 200k (compared to the 150). You didnt list your age but mentioned 30 years which is why i picked 30. with the hybrid, you use up your money first so if you really use the benefits, then there is very little to no death benefit. bc of underwriting, its very unlikely you would use any benefit for many years (although of course not impossible). The growth of that 33k can cover the 3 month difference with extra which gives you more options for instance if you wish to use the money even before ...

its unfortunate that time shares are legal. They really should be illegal or new laws such that there are much easier ways to exit.

Even in those situations where people say im ok with it like the disney ones, its never actually some great deal.

Its like maybe just maybe you will get an okay deal with a time share but the vast majority of the time, you will get screwed.

thats unfortunate since that was my go to forum for canon 1dxii

You seem to like to avoid putting in the correct details

No you don’t get in essence 2 million magically

It costs a ton more to get both. There is no free lunch.

Additionally money inside an Ira is not inherited tax free.

Usually the investments are poor too

Works best if u really want tax deferral

Chardo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:59 am

Rex66 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:38 pm Is there any income rider out there where the death benefit isn’t reduced by withdrawals/income? I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure you got the correct info above.

I know Jackson has one, so I suspect there are others. Have your cake and eat it too. Take your withdrawals, and have all of them paid to the beneficiary too.

That’s not possible without a much lower death benefit or withdrawal rate. How come you didn’t mention that?

Is there any income rider out there where the death benefit isn’t reduced by withdrawals/income? I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure you got the correct info above.

WL trails the interest rate environment

Currently it is lower than other fixed even after you break even such as mygas. This is probably going to continue. They invest in fixed but have huge overhead so the lapse rate is frankly the only thing that keeps it up. Just not enough. Rising interest rate environment is why in the 80s many dumped their WL.

Good luck

If in an irrevocable then it likely isn’t yours to loan against.

It’s just a bad idea but frequently people want to believe they are unique such that the rules don’t apply. Just fyi I purchased a big WL policy previously. It hasn’t worked out very well. Falling dividends have resulted in returns much lower than originally illustrated.

Yes a no lapse gUL would have lower premium but then also no csv to loan against. On a guarantee (not illustrated) death benefit is significantly higher than for WL.

The interest rate is not guaranteed to be a wash and with WL rarely is. Additionally historically companies with non direct recognition and better “loan deals” pay lower dividends. There is no free lunch that you found a magic company. Depends on the policy I believe. I agree that most policies don't give you that guarantee. It really matters what policy you get if you want to do this. I also agree that you probably get lower dividends on a non-direct recognition policy. But you still should get one if you're going to IB/BOY. It’s a few of the ULs that guarantee it and they make up for that cost elsewhere. Now some WL policies and ULs have over loan provisions so at that point it’s a wash going forward but they limit you to a percentage of...

There is no way to ferret out the good from the bad Otherwise you wouldn’t need to be an accredited investor to do it. I and several of my close friends qualify. Only one has done well with this. To be fair the jury is still out for myself but really have no idea if it will be worth the risk. Let's not forget the requirements: - Net worth over $1 million, excluding primary residence (individually or with spouse or partner) - Income over $200,000 (individually) or $300,000 (with spouse or partner) in each of the prior two years, and reasonably expects the same for the current year. Is that really enough to "ferret out the good from the bad?" I'd guess that a reasonably high percentage of BH meet those criteria but would be lost pu...

The interest rate is not guaranteed to be a wash and with WL rarely is.

Additionally historically companies with non direct recognition and better “loan deals” pay lower dividends. There is no free lunch that you found a magic company.

As you might notice from the above link. Mass is subtlety predicting they in particular are not going to reward people with those concept and even telling their agents it will create a higher chance of lapse.

I find it funny someone thinks I was an agent. I am a physician by the way.

There is no way to ferret out the good from the bad

Otherwise you wouldn’t need to be an accredited investor to do it.

I and several of my close friends qualify. Only one has done well with this. To be fair the jury is still out for myself but really have no idea if it will be worth the risk.

Not likely they are willing unless like you mentioned they need the cash bc of a run. They hold to maturity. I wouldn’t spend a lot of time on this but little harm in asking if it’s a bank where you have some pull.

You are NEVER actually paying interest to yourself with this concept. Make sure you actually understand what I just said. It is ALWAYS a loan from the insurance company using the policy as collateral and they receive all the interest. Some of that may trickle to u as a dividend but you are not paying yourself.

This lie is why mass I listed above has given agents new internal guidance bc they are tired of the complaints.

This is not going to work out well unless you die prematurely compared to rating.

In particular you mentioned lower cost and being able to loan against. Costs for insurance are actually not disclosed with WLbut an overfunded policy which thus facilitated that is the highest premium for the lowest death benefit.

you almost certainly can avoid a tax problem if you wanted. Do that instead. Keep in mind a taxable account also gets a step up in basis at death. Only the irrevocable trust makes WL free from estate taxes and not the WL itself.

WL returns once you break even are currently lagging even mygas. That’s probably not going to change soon.

VictorStarr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:23 am As other people commented, the most probable cause is 3D Secure (3DS):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure
https://thepointsguy.com/credit-cards/3 ... -security/

In EU 3DS is mandatory for all online transactions. You said that you have four credit cards, you need to find CC that supports 3DS. I empirically discovered that
- Apple Card
- Chase Sapphire Reserve
- Fidelity Visa
- US Bank Altitude Go
support 3DS.

BTW, Citi Double Cash CC is a suboptimal choice for international payments, it has 3% foreign transaction fee.

Good post

Horrible idea

Some companies are now secretly discouraging it bc of how it never works out as hyped.

While a big concern is that some agents practically lie by down playing it is life insurance, one should notice mass is telling agents it’s more likely to fail as interest rates rise ie in the future. Should be a warning to the agents around here who like to pretend non guaranteed loan rates are going to work out.

https://insurance-forums.com/community/ ... es.110135/

Pay for someone if you want but almost certainly he sold you to another firm. Someone willing to do that…..

Some people worry that a 529 will decrease financial aide

Now this typically is loans but without a lot more details I’d be hesitant to do this in secret

When you factor in inflation, kiddie policies don’t insure very much and they have horrible returns (even worse than typical WL).

Take the cash and invest it appropriately.

You can easily ask what they are testing for. If you haven’t then you are not doing your job as a parent.

And no you can’t get 50 year pure term policies on a kid.

why would you think you wouldnt owe taxes?

you clearly know this is the case.

now you may not get caught like someone with a lawn business who does just a few lawns but anyone hired to do this job would need to pay taxes.

why would there be an exemption for you?

You have about what you can get.

Just in case it isn’t clear, any group you have limits individual you can buy so if a new job then before you begin your new job and it’s associated group is the time to buy max individual if desired. Once purchased, they can’t decrease it if your employer offers you group. Once you have group, you get stuck how much you can buy.

I’d post offer at wci like I said but otherwise probably just keep what you have and avoid any guardian agent who tries to sell you whole life.

Well of course it’s cheaper. Details like occupation and such will help determine which is better suited. I’d leave the details over at wci. More disability specialists there. Usually the price drop from 90 to 365 isn’t super so most just stick with 90.

Be very careful not to get suckered into guardian whole life. Frequently they are very pushy.

I assume it’s like this bc you didn’t purchase the future income rider?

Without knowing occupation and health, it’s hard to know if you have the best deal

I’d post over at whitecoatinvestor.com
The posts there on disability get a more complete response.

They get suckered into it. Insurance sales folks know how to sell. While this is a lousy form of payment, if you don’t have a better option like getting the cash then it’s better than nothing Unfortunately you can easily lose the money they put into the product based on charges and cost of insurance. To make the most out of this product, you want it overfunded to MEC limit. Be sure that’s being done. They like to sucker you into a high death benefit instead bc that makes agents and the company more money. What you invest in depends on personal preferences. Some would recommend the fixed options if it’s decent compared to other fixed options bc of the tax deferred nature. This makes it easier to predict performance as well on illustrations.

I read somewhere that a company is not allowed to bill you after losing a credit card dispute per the agreement with the credit card company, so maybe let them know what's going on, too. Not correct. The credit card dispute resolution does not prevent the merchant from seeking to collect the funds in other ways. OP signed a contract agreeing to the fee and despite knowing that is what he signed, he still took the car and left the airport. That is the bottom line. He should have remained at the airport counter until Thrifty either revised the contract or cancelled the rental. OP owes the money. Whether Thrifty will turn it over to collections or be willing to work it out with OP if he contacts them is anyone's guess. Yep In essence the OP t...

5% is a fairly high minimum interest

Probably stick with that at the moment if you are getting that.

I read somewhere that a company is not allowed to bill you after losing a credit card dispute per the agreement with the credit card company, so maybe let them know what's going on, too. Not correct. The credit card dispute resolution does not prevent the merchant from seeking to collect the funds in other ways. OP signed a contract agreeing to the fee and despite knowing that is what he signed, he still took the car and left the airport. That is the bottom line. He should have remained at the airport counter until Thrifty either revised the contract or cancelled the rental. OP owes the money. Whether Thrifty will turn it over to collections or be willing to work it out with OP if he contacts them is anyone's guess. Yep In essence the OP t...

These are the reasons I never use a 3rd party for car rentals.

You can only complain at this point. You signed for this and it’s your word vs someone who isn’t even known.

Your advice is in essence check financials u less that makes ltci look bad then don’t check the financials. Got it. I guess you didn't read what I wrote about Penn Treaty. And regarding Genworth, they have more than enough LTCi reserves to pay all future claims. Everyone who has a Genworth policy should keep it. I won't sell any new Genworth policies unless their financial ratings improve. If it was such a rosey picture they wouldn’t be allowed all the price increases they are requesting. Based on Genworth's estimates, it could still take five more years to reach economic breakeven on its legacy business. https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/long-term-care-rate-increases-persist-as-genworth-mut...

Your advice is in essence check financials u less that makes ltci look bad then don’t check the financials. Got it.

You just wrote…..

how would, one have known about such failures apriori !?
wow: First off, their financial ratings were never very good. They always had below average financial ratings


You have no idea (nor I) how genworth will do going forward.

They did try to sell their business though bc they weren’t happy with it and nobody bought it. Even China backed out.

Doing your homework may not mean a lot with ltci Genworth was well regarded and industry leader until quickly it was not Still they have paid even with their troubles so even their bad press also doesn’t say a lot Genworth still is an industry leader. They still pay more long-term care insurance claims than any other company. They have more long-term care insurance claimants than any other company. They have more long-term care insurance policyholders than any other company. They are still selling long-term care insurance (just not through brokers, like me). No kidding but if u did your homework as u mentioned previously about financials they have gone way down. They were completely unsuccessful in a multi year process to sell their busine...

Doing your homework may not mean a lot with ltci

Genworth was well regarded and industry leader until quickly it was not

Still they have paid even with their troubles so even their bad press also doesn’t say a lot

Taxable account in your name is still the way to go

Step up in basis at death isn’t worth giving up for the 60 age pseudo requirement

If one develops health issues they might not be around long enough to enjoy your gift and you really don’t want that

As they get older just explain your desires but be flexible. I imagine you don’t want crazy spending all at once. They can be taught that.

One has to be cared though with that

The vast majority of agents are not experts

Most leave the industry within a few years. They get 99% of their training from insurance companies.

Many agents will attempt you to buy an insurance product. Sometimes it’s a good fit. Some times not.

I will say ltci agents have a better chance. It’s not as bad as life agents whom you have an incredibly high chance of being steered towards permanent insurance.

There is no bomb here

Although nobody can accurately predict future tax rates, you eventually have to pay taxes and historically it’s very likely to be a lower rate in retirement.

Not sure what encourage means but if it means family members are feeding them be prepared when you bigger more aggressive animals come to feed on your rabbit farm. Small dogs might be in trouble then.

Most likely take the tax hit bc it seems unlikely to be in a lower tax rate in future.

Otherwise 1035 into myga

In my experience as a physician it’s around 2% of situations where advantage plans deny things that regular does not and I’m talking things where it’s medically appropriate. I’m not talking about hurdles or forms or other requirements either.

a lot of schools have hoops to give you a slight break. They actually factor this into their list prices. My kids all got something even though to be honest two of them didnt have scores that made it such that one should be thinking scholarship material. Its a game. Still if you know you are going there then why not play. People like saying Univ X gave me a scholarship so i went there and its a pride thing for kids/parents. They play on that. Might not be a horrible thing except college should likely be cheaper so none of this would happen.