Search found 500 matches

by johnanglemen
Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:49 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

It’s unfortunate that a broad market etf which is equivalent to a stripped bond hasn’t been created yet. It Does seem that there would be some demand. If I did a strategy to avoid dividends, I would sell then immediately buy an equivalent etf, not wait till the next day as you mentioned since there...
by johnanglemen
Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:08 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

In that case, your discount rate should be your margin rate; your own behavior is the proof. Any investor's personal discount rate is the highest rate at which he or she is willing to trade current dollars for future guaranteed dollars, given his or her current situation. For most investors, that i...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:40 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

Risk. If you have any bonds, you can sell bonds to buy stock, and get the market rate, with the market risk. If you choose not to sell bonds to buy stock, nor vice versa, you have decided that you are indifferent between the market return and the return on low-risk bonds. Therefore, your personal d...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:09 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

Because you are comparing certainties. You are considering a strategy which will cost you $X now and gain you $Y later. I wonder where the disconnect is. The only reason I'm contemplating this strategy is because it does the opposite: It gains $X now and costs $Y later. Put aside the question of sw...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

Thanks so much for chiming in. Please forgive the barrage of dumb questions to follow. What you are trying to optimize is a tax bill now versus a tax bill later. To do this, you compute the tax due in different years for different strategies, and discount at the risk-free rate. (Here is another thre...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:02 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

Re: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

cheese_breath wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:53 pm
This is too long and complicated for me, but I do have one have one question. Does your algorithm protect against you trading into a dividend from the fund you're trading into?
Yeah it would. E.g. you'd trade into a Fidelity fund that only pays dividends once a year.
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:17 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend
Replies: 15
Views: 1350

An algorithm that decides whether it's worth trading to avoid a dividend

I have an optimization problem that seems straightforward but I think may actually be complicated. Or I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around it. Assumptions You have a very large taxable account containing hundreds of Total Stock mutual fund lots with varying cost bases and embedded gains/l...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:40 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is it so much cheaper to borrow money in Euros?
Replies: 19
Views: 2151

Re: Why is it so much cheaper to borrow money in Euros?

This is probably an obvious question but I'll ask it anyway. If you want to borrow, say, $2 million USD on margin at Interactive Brokers, you'll pay around 2.65% annually for the privilege. But if you want to borrow the equivalent amount in Euros, you'll only pay around 0.75%. Why is there such a d...
by johnanglemen
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:14 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is it so much cheaper to borrow money in Euros?
Replies: 19
Views: 2151

Why is it so much cheaper to borrow money in Euros?

This is probably an obvious question but I'll ask it anyway. If you want to borrow, say, $2 million USD on margin at Interactive Brokers, you'll pay around 2.65% annually for the privilege. But if you want to borrow the equivalent amount in Euros, you'll only pay around 0.75%. Why is there such a di...
by johnanglemen
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:29 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: An unspoken advantage of Fidelity Zero funds?
Replies: 2
Views: 918

Re: An unspoken advantage of Fidelity Zero funds?

2pedals wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:36 pm
Good point, but how much difference will this make in the long run?
A substantial difference! Certainly a bigger difference than any other factor this board has discussed in the Fidelity vs Vanguard debate. Am a bit surprised not to see any other commentary on this issue.
by johnanglemen
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:45 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: An unspoken advantage of Fidelity Zero funds?
Replies: 2
Views: 918

An unspoken advantage of Fidelity Zero funds?

There's been a lot of talk about whether Fidelity Zero's 0% ERs are outweighed by their capital gains distributions and other deficiencies, but I haven't seen much talk about an unusual advantage: If you expect the assets under management for funds to keep growing quickly on a percentage basis, thei...
by johnanglemen
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Fidelity Files for Four Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER)
Replies: 753
Views: 73489

Re: Fidelity Files for two Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER total stock and total international mutual funds)

triceratop wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:50 pm
I am enjoying the use of present participle tense immensely.
Vanguard is not currently receiving any securities lending either... Neither company has made an ironclad commitment. Vanguard has raised ratios and fees in the past. Not seeing a difference here.
by johnanglemen
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:47 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Fidelity Files for Four Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER)
Replies: 753
Views: 73489

Re: Fidelity Files for two Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER total stock and total international mutual funds)

Answer on securities lending: But Fidelity pushed back on the talk of revenue from securities lending. "Fidelity's securities lending program is designed to benefit fund shareholders," the company said in a statement. "Fidelity is not receiving any revenue from the Fidelity ZERO Index funds for secu...
by johnanglemen
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:39 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Fidelity Files for Four Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER)
Replies: 753
Views: 73489

Re: Fidelity Files for two Fidelity ZERO℠ Funds (0.00% ER total stock and total international mutual funds)

It seems like there's some emotionally-driven debate happening here. Personally I'd like to take all emotion out of the equation and make a purely rational decision. If Fidelity is truly cheaper then I would switch new purchases immediately. The outstanding questions seem to be: * Securities lending...
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Loss on excess contribution to solo Roth 401k
Replies: 2
Views: 296

Re: Loss on excess contribution to solo Roth 401k

Just bumping to see if anyone has any thoughts here. Thanks! :sharebeer
by johnanglemen
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Loss on excess contribution to solo Roth 401k
Replies: 2
Views: 296

Loss on excess contribution to solo Roth 401k

I corrected an 'excess annual addition' (contribution in excess of 100% of net self-employment earnings) for 2017 for my individual Roth 401k. There was a loss calculated on the excess. I received the distribution this year. If there was gain, it would've been taxable as ordinary income. Does that m...
by johnanglemen
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:55 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Interest and penalties accrue from original or extended tax filing deadline?
Replies: 3
Views: 344

Re: Interest and penalties accrue from original or extended tax filing deadline?

The due date, April 15. Gill Is it fair to say then that this is one downside of filing an extension? I've seen others on this forum say that you might as well file an extension to give yourself more time (while of course paying what you think you owe by the original due date). But it seems that th...
by johnanglemen
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:24 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Interest and penalties accrue from original or extended tax filing deadline?
Replies: 3
Views: 344

Interest and penalties accrue from original or extended tax filing deadline?

Say I pay what I believe to be owed on April 15th and file the good-faith (extension) return showing this amount on April 30th. The IRS later determines that there's a small underpayment. Is the interest and penalties on this underpayment calculated from April 15th or April 30th? I assume the former.
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:45 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TurboTax bug: Q4 2017 estimated tax deadline
Replies: 2
Views: 257

Re: TurboTax bug: Q4 2017 estimated tax deadline

Interesting, so it looks like a bug in the IRS worksheet itself then, not a TurboTax problem. Weird.

TurboTax calculates the days from 1/15.
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:41 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TurboTax bug: Q4 2017 estimated tax deadline
Replies: 2
Views: 257

TurboTax bug: Q4 2017 estimated tax deadline

The 2210 Penalty worksheet in TurboTax 2017 calculates late Q4 2017 estimated tax payments from a deadline of 1/15/2018. Seems to me that the deadline this year was 1/16/2018 due to MLK Day falling on 1/15. Therefore TT is calculating too much penalty. No?
by johnanglemen
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:15 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Estimated taxes for 2018
Replies: 18
Views: 2035

Estimated taxes for 2018

For those of you who prefer to pay estimated taxes based on annualized income (rather than the "safe harbor" of 100%/110% of last year's tax), how are you planning to calculate your estimates this year? I'm guessing there's no tax software out there that is updated for all the 2018 changes yet. Any ...
by johnanglemen
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:36 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition
Replies: 5
Views: 600

Re: Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition

Actually excess annual additions are relatively rare, because the employer should not allow it to happen'. As the sponsor of a one-participant 401k you are responsible for ensuring that you do not exceed the contribution limits. The best way to accomplish this is to be conservative with your contri...
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:23 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition
Replies: 5
Views: 600

Re: Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition

Thanks Spirit Rider. So it sounds like contributing more than net self-employment earnings would constitute an excess annual addition. In explaining the difference between excess employee deferral and excess annual addition, Vanguard says that an excess annual addition can "jeopardize the tax-qualif...
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition
Replies: 5
Views: 600

Solo 401k: excess deferral vs excess annual addition

Can any wise CPA types out there help me understand the difference between an "excess deferral" (reported as code 8 on 1099-R) and an "excess annual addition" (reported as code E on 1099-R) when it comes to the issue of contributing more to your solo 401k than you have in net self-employment earning...
by johnanglemen
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:26 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth conversion deadline?
Replies: 2
Views: 247

Roth conversion deadline?

I see some sites (e.g. https://www.taxact.com/support/1330/2016/roth-ira-conversion-from-an-ira-distribution-must-be-by-end-of-tax-year) say that December 31st is the deadline for a Roth conversion. What does that mean exactly, since I was under the impression that an IRA can be converted to a Roth ...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Is this a normal fund/ETF discount or is something else at play?
Replies: 5
Views: 579

Re: Is this a normal fund/ETF discount or is something else at play?

Since international funds trade when the underlying markets are closed, Vanguard makes fair-value price adjustments to the mutual fund price. Since these adjustments are not perfect, the ETF price does not always track Vanguard's computed NAV. In other words: At 4PM, the market takes its best guess...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Is this a normal fund/ETF discount or is something else at play?
Replies: 5
Views: 579

Is this a normal fund/ETF discount or is something else at play?

Today Vanguard Total International ETF (VXUS) fell by 2.17%, while the mutual fund (VTIAX) only fell by 1.86%. Vanguard's site says that VXUS usually trades at a premium of $0.17 (~0.3%). So the discount today of 0.3% to NAV is altogether about 0.6% off from what I would've expected. Is that still e...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:13 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

I don't think inflation is the major issue here, but maybe try to think of it like this: You have a $100 bill that you hang onto and use it to buy $100 worth of milk in ten years instead of spending it on milk right now. That milk is most likely going to be more expensive, so the $100 bill buys les...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:00 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

Seems like I want to hold it. If I realize capital gains now just so I can use my "check" now, then I get no immediate benefit. My losses are gone, my basis is higher. But if I suddenly need some money next year and am forced to realize capital gains to access it, then I will be forced to pay some ...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:21 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

It might help you to think of your capital loss carryover as a check that can only be used to pay taxes and only under specific circumstances: taxes on $3,000 a year of ordinary income or the taxes at any time in any amount up to the full amount of the check of capital gains. Do you want to hold th...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

Your cost basis would be higher so you would have lower capital gains to pay taxes on in the future. The big question is what will happen with taxes on capital gains between now and then both as far as changes in tax law as well as your own personal tax situation. I would utilize the losses now unl...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:42 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

I might be dense but I don't understand how this is advantageous. All these strategies just seem to be designed to generate capital gains. I already have a lot of unrealized capital gains, and if I wanted more, I could just buy more index funds since the expected return is positive. But what good d...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

Hmm. Let me ask another question then. Say you had a large capital loss that you knew you wouldn't use "organically" for another 20 years. By "organically" I mean that you wouldn't recognize offsetting capital gains in the ordinary course of events until 20 years from today (and not at all in the i...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

I think it is fair to say that. It has a present value measured in dollars and that value will erode with inflation. A lot of corporations had to take markdown on the value of accumulated losses or tax credits or whatever with the recent changes in tax law and some even had to report a net loss bec...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:02 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't know about that argument. In 100 or 1000 years (and ignoring of course potential changes in tax law) 3k will still be 3k, though it might not buy you a coke at that point. But your capital gains will presumably be much larger. If your real tax liability is...
by johnanglemen
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:47 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Re: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

I think it is fair to say that. It has a present value measured in dollars and that value will erode with inflation. A lot of corporations had to take markdowns on the value of accumulated losses or tax credits or whatever with the recent changes in tax law and some even had to report a net loss be...
by johnanglemen
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?
Replies: 21
Views: 1473

Does inflation erode a capital loss carryover over time?

Is it fair to say that inflation erodes a capital loss carryover that you expect to hold for more than a decade? Or is that nonsensical?
by johnanglemen
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:14 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution
Replies: 10
Views: 1604

Re: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution

Is my assessment correct? If so, it appears to come down to whether it's worth the hassle of opening an IRA at another firm to save $41 in taxes? Thank you! Your assessment matches mine in all particulars. I don't understand why the IRS allows the earnings to remain in the IRA when you withdraw the...
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:59 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution
Replies: 10
Views: 1604

Re: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution

Is it appreciation across all Roth IRAs in this timeframe, or only the account I contributed to? I would've assumed all, but Fairmark (http://fairmark.com/retirement/roth-accounts/recharacterizations/recharacterization-blues/) seems to suggest that it's only the particular account? Just the account...
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Vanguard Tax Forms Now Online
Replies: 39
Views: 3515

Re: Vanguard Tax Forms Now Online

rkhusky wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:09 pm
Just got my 1099. Qualified dividends for Total Stock, Mid Cap and Small Cap are 94.78%, 87.18%, 65.72%, respectively. This compares to Vanguard's estimates of 94%, 89%, 71%, respectively.
Wow. If they had gotten qualified dividends to 95%, they could've reported them as 100%. Big loss.
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution
Replies: 10
Views: 1604

Re: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution

What does it mean that the earnings are calculated using the Roth IRA? Say my Roth IRA is up 50% overall. Does that mean that $5500 comes out and gets put in the nondeductible traditional IRA as basis, and $2750 comes out and put in there as earnings? That seems crazy / inequitable. What Kaneohe sa...
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:50 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Vanguard Tax Forms Now Online
Replies: 39
Views: 3515

Re: Vanguard Tax Forms Now Online

Can those of you who have tax forms tell us the final qualified dividend percentage for Vanguard Total Stock and Vanguard Total International?
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution
Replies: 10
Views: 1604

Re: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution

There are three ways to fix this excess Roth IRA contribution. Given your facts the best way appears to be recharacterize the Roth contribution to be a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution. You ask Vanguard to do this and they will move the contributions plus earnings from the Roth to the tI...
by johnanglemen
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:17 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution
Replies: 10
Views: 1604

Accidentally made direct Roth IRA contribution

In September 2017, I inadvertently made a contribution directly to my Roth IRA. My income is too high to do this. I meant to make a nondeductible contribution to my Traditional IRA and then convert it immediately to Roth IRA. The IRA is held at Vanguard. I invested the contribution in Vanguard Emerg...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

The example seems to demonstrate that there are in fact cases when it would be better to take $50,000 in the Roth rather than receive $100,000 in taxable. Maybe that's totally obvious, but it was unintuitive to me -- you'd be turning down an extra $50,000! -- so I was just vetting it against the wi...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

I'm also confused by the queation: assuming you don't need the money before 59.5, and assuming you have the same investments available on each account, Roth will always beat taxable, simply because it's not taxable. Of course, if you limit your options to the S&P500 in taxable account or something ...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:47 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

You can't just put the 50,000k into Roth at one time? And why would you have different amounts in different account types? Can you clarify your first question? On the second, there are cases where you have a choice to incur certain deductible expenses that would increase your aftertax income but de...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:38 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

It depends on how tax efficient the taxable investment is. It is possible that over a long enough time horizon if you used REITs as the asset class the Roth would win. In fact this is always the case when there is any tax inefficiency; the unknown is only the length of time it takes for the Roth to...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:28 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

It depends on how tax efficient the taxable investment is. It is possible that over a long enough time horizon if you used REITs as the asset class the Roth would win. In fact this is always the case when there is any tax inefficiency; the unknown is only the length of time it takes for the Roth to...
by johnanglemen
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?
Replies: 19
Views: 1626

Re: A lot in taxable, or a little in Roth: a no-brainer?

Goal33 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:42 pm
I’d want the 100k in taxable so when I lose all my money in a once in a lifetime opportunity I can deduct the losses.
Funny. Let's assume it's actually the next Google for this exercise...