Search found 55 matches

by stvyreb
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:44 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: The Fall of Consumer Reports
Replies: 89
Views: 15184

Re: The Fall of Consumer Reports

For my Dad CU was the gold standard. And for much of my adult life it was for me too. It has been sad to see its slow decline which has mystified me, given the rep it had. A few years ago I was sent these cheesy "raffle tickets" from them that I had to opt-out of. Then they suddenly switched their ...
by stvyreb
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:42 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: I still use cash not credit cards should I reconsider?
Replies: 102
Views: 7891

Re: I still use cash not credit cards should I reconsider?

1) using cash make your expenses visible IMO, it's not just a number on a register 2) more and more, all your purchases are being collated by Big Brother .... which is the long-run is not something you want, and should try to mitigate. 3) I use one card, with a cash back feature, for purchases > $40...
by stvyreb
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:37 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard
Replies: 29
Views: 4800

Re: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard

I am wondering if there are others who are using VG TBM or IT Index (in both taxable and tax-deferred accounts) whom include other shorter term Index funds to try to acheive an overall duration of less than 5 years as per Mr. Bernstein's books: Well, I have a bond index fund in the Megacorp 401(k) ...
by stvyreb
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:17 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Time for new phone, Buy or Lease?
Replies: 30
Views: 2165

Re: Time for new phone, Buy or Lease?

I went with Moto X4 through Project Fi. I think it was $240 with free financing which I took advantage of. Very happy so far; big upgrade from my Verizon Samsung S4 which I had for about 4 years. yeah, midlevel, MotoX4 MintSimmobile.com $20/mo no-contract US system in ridiculous , unless you must h...
by stvyreb
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard
Replies: 29
Views: 4800

Re: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard

I know this is a question without 1 answer, however I can't help noticing that the corporate portion: https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/VBILX 40/50% is A quality and below ; is that a concern? Is there an index that is just higher quality ? Aa and above ? or is this just going to be...
by stvyreb
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:30 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard
Replies: 29
Views: 4800

Re: Total Stock and Total Bond Market(s) at Vanguard

I am wondering if there are others who are using VG TBM or IT Index (in both taxable and tax-deferred accounts) whom include other shorter term Index funds to try to acheive an overall duration of less than 5 years as per Mr. Bernstein's books: http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/997/maturity.htm
by stvyreb
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:24 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds
Replies: 137
Views: 15060

Re: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds

Or I could tilt the whole thing towards treasuries, despite their losing to inflation Why do you think that treasuries will "lose to inflation?" :confused If I'm reading it correctly, Treasury Funds for 3 years are negative (but I am a rookie, I don't even know if the numbers include the coupon or ...
by stvyreb
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds
Replies: 137
Views: 15060

Re: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds

Or I could tilt the whole thing towards treasuries, despite their losing to inflation Why do you think that treasuries will "lose to inflation?" :confused If I'm reading it correctly, Treasury Funds for 3 years are negative (but I am a rookie, I don't even know if the numbers include the coupon or ...
by stvyreb
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:45 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds
Replies: 137
Views: 15060

Re: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds

thanks but my investment horizon /"when I need the money" is unknown I've noticed the IT VG Index duration has creep up to 7.2 years ; I'm looking at having both my tax-deferred and taxable bond portfolio sensical overall, and simple enough I can manage without chasing basis points, on things I don'...
by stvyreb
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:14 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds
Replies: 137
Views: 15060

Re: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds

lol......looks like my revival of last year's thread led to some discussion, though much of it, seems to not fit my world. eg I'm not ready to go all treasuries in my IRA accounts, and don't want to hassle with brokerage CDs , which I'll probably barely understand. maybe I can simplify my question:...
by stvyreb
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:59 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds
Replies: 137
Views: 15060

Re: Swedroe's guidelines to Bonds

simple Just to add that should use CDs instead of Treasuries when you have access to them, unless spread in yields very thin Larry I always have trouble understanding how to manage Bonds, as I'm not a math genius, so have ended up just owning VG IT Index for everything, however I've noticed the dur...
by stvyreb
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:56 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date
Replies: 8
Views: 364

Re: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date

sounds like in essence pro-ration, and not to worry

interesting, something I didn't know was happening, thxagain
by stvyreb
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date
Replies: 8
Views: 364

Re: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date

well, I meant it more in the context of : if dividends are paid out on Aug1 and I buy the fund Aug2 , I'm not missing the dividend pay out because it's prorated for how long the fund has been held? but, while this is the case for these funds, it is Not the case for other funds like the one you refer...
by stvyreb
Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date
Replies: 8
Views: 364

Re: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date

ty, and there is no particular reason to buy back the funds in 31 days, vs 33 or 34 ? like missing dividends , if they are Not pricing in ?
by stvyreb
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date
Replies: 8
Views: 364

Re: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date

What is the ticker symbol? VBILX VBIRX Why two checks? One for what you sold? And one for the pro-rated dividends that had accrued? Or did you have this fund in two different accounts? Not sure why, I assume it was some proration, not sure why they had to be paper, and weren't instead directed to t...
by stvyreb
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:45 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date
Replies: 8
Views: 364

TLH VG ITB fund ex-dividends date

Hello, I had some large losses in my VG ITB fund, and decided to harvest last month, I sold it all and am waiting 30 days to buy back (I know there used to be workarounds for the waiting, but I don't mind) I then got two small paper checks in the mail from VG, and I started to think maybe I should h...
by stvyreb
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:54 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust
Replies: 7
Views: 540

Re: Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust

Hello, so trying to be proactive in my 50s, I created a RLT mostly on my own, which included using VNTC as the successor(sp); and a "child's subtrust" for my nephew till age 35, (boy is currently 15yo). Part 1: I am no longer confident in having VNTC as the successor, though I could leave the child...
by stvyreb
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:46 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust
Replies: 7
Views: 540

Re: Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust

I'm a little confused too, but you appear to wish to revoke the trust or to amend it. You can certainly do either. You can also remove all assets from it which would nullify the trust but be sure you don't have a will pouring over to that trust if you don't want to keep it. Why have you lost confid...
by stvyreb
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:14 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust
Replies: 7
Views: 540

Step to revoke RLT ; / define 'extensive changes' Trust

Hello, so trying to be proactive in my 50s , I created a RLT mostly on my own, which included using VNTC as the successor(sp) ; and a "child's subtrust" for my nephew till age 35, (boy is currently 15yo). Part 1: I am no longer confident in having VNTC as the successor, though I could leave the chil...
by stvyreb
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Sell Bond Fund in Taxable for Loss?
Replies: 15
Views: 1379

Re: Sell Bond Fund in Taxable for Loss?

If I sell, I realize the loss but I can claim the capital loss and get my portfolio to where I think it needs to be per my IPS and make it more tax efficient (but HOW much more tax efficient I don't know). I'm a bit baffled. Do you consider realizing losses bad? The loss exists regardless of whethe...
by stvyreb
Mon May 28, 2018 6:21 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Can anyone recommend Any Social Responsible fund/s?
Replies: 17
Views: 1549

Can anyone recommend Any Social Responsible fund/s?

I am curious if VG has ever considered starting one, forgetting all the arguments about how investing isn't the place for making policy changes. With all my other purchases and life choices I attempt to find spend ethically, I might like to do it with my equity and bond index funds as well, if there...
by stvyreb
Fri May 18, 2018 2:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why is Vanguard switching all accounts to brokerage accounts?
Replies: 90
Views: 17703

Re: Why is Vanguard switching all accounts to brokerage accounts?

you know, I just messaged with my VG rep, he says he is "not aware" of any forced upcoming switch of "all accounts to brokerages" for the record. seems like the premise of this whole thread is mute? or what susze said there, maybe in the future more caution or some reference in a post like this you ...
by stvyreb
Fri May 04, 2018 1:19 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Revocable living trust via online software
Replies: 14
Views: 2531

Re: Revocable living trust via online software

I have a trust written by an estate attorney, and I've read a number of other trusts written by estate attorneys (my wife's, my dad's, my mom's, my step-mother's, a friend's); they are all largely boilerplate. Like I said, I've drafted a couple of trusts for family members using the NOLO press book...
by stvyreb
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:17 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: 2011, 12, 13 forgot to deduct very large deferred SavBond INT on State Tax Return ..
Replies: 2
Views: 558

Re: 2011, 12, 13 forgot to deduct very large deferred SavBond INT on State Tax Return ..

I'm curious if you have a reference ? I did find this : https://www.ftb.ca.gov/Archive/Professionals/Taxnews/2010/July/Article_4.shtml What is the general SOL for a taxpayer to claim a refund or credit? R&TC Section 19306 specifies that a claim for refund or credit must be filed no later than (a) fo...
by stvyreb
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:36 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: 2011, 12, 13 forgot to deduct very large deferred SavBond INT on State Tax Return ..
Replies: 2
Views: 558

2011, 12, 13 forgot to deduct very large deferred SavBond INT on State Tax Return ..

2011, 12, 13 forgot to deduct very large deferred SavBond INT on State Tax Return .. friend of mine, forgot to do the above, his CPA is telling him the statue of limitations is gone to amend, is there anything last ditch that might be done to recoop a very large non deduction of federal deferred sty...
by stvyreb
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:46 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Wait or Amend error on AGI 1040 for State? CP2000 CP3219A
Replies: 1
Views: 163

Wait or Amend error on AGI 1040 for State? CP2000 CP3219A

Hello, I have decided to pay the IRS about $1200 for Tax year 2015, turbotax uses the AGI to 'flow over' to the State Tax form . Inputting the increase of AGI , it appears to increase my State Tax by about $200 ; 1) do I go ahead and amend my State Tax Form and pay it now ; or just wait for them to ...
by stvyreb
Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:43 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Amend State Tax or wait, after agree'ing to a Federal amount due notice?
Replies: 0
Views: 161

Amend State Tax or wait, after agree'ing to a Federal amount due notice?

My state says I have 2 years to amend a return , does that typically mean , before penalty would start if an error is found? I think I'm going to go ahead and pay the IRS a deficiency, but Should I expect after doing this, that my state will THEN send me a similar deficiency, after I agree, I have a...
by stvyreb
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:23 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Deceased Missed RMDs for 2017, Must Bene take them?
Replies: 2
Views: 568

Re: Deceased Missed RMDs for 2017, Must Bene take them?

re-reading the letters: it appears I will get two 1099-Rs for 2017 , 1 for the rolled over amount, the other for the RMD paid out. (there is the letter for the IRS and a 2 page letter explaining the process) I guess where I became confused is there is a box for "RMD calculation" that includes 2012 t...
by stvyreb
Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:09 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Deceased Missed RMDs for 2017, Must Bene take them?
Replies: 2
Views: 568

Deceased Missed RMDs for 2017, Must Bene take them?

Deceased Missed RMDs for 2017, Must Bene take them? Hello, this is a bit complicated, but a parent passed in 2012 (they were 72, however were still working and did not take RMDs on a Defined Benefit Plan. So, early 2017 the administrator of the plan informed us, that there was an "institutional erro...
by stvyreb
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:18 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Linux based laptop or just a Windows based laptop formatted?
Replies: 49
Views: 4034

Re: Linux based laptop or just a Windows based laptop formatted?

trouble is, win10 is only free if its preinstalled ..... if you had it on a USB drive I guess you could try both .... but most people will just default to having the win10 as the OS or dual boot ( which apparently diminishes overall security via secure boot process ) , or buy the win10 laptop and ru...
by stvyreb
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:40 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: try to trade in vs. warranty for opened phone
Replies: 2
Views: 221

Re: try to trade in vs. warranty for opened phone

a capital one credit card .... hmm
by stvyreb
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:27 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: try to trade in vs. warranty for opened phone
Replies: 2
Views: 221

try to trade in vs. warranty for opened phone

Hello, I bought a phone from google 19 months ago, and because of a common problem, LG will take it back and fix it for free "unless its been tampered" with. While travelling the phone died, and the local shop said they 'opened' the phone, but I don't know if that will disqualify the "free" repair. ...
by stvyreb
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:21 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Quicken's future direction - a cause for concern
Replies: 516
Views: 78258

Re: Quicken's future direction - a cause for concern

I'm still using Quicken 2013 ; but I travel and don't want to be tied into a Windows 10 product ; seems like personal capital and expenses online is my only choice ; unless GnuCash is going to be functional enough. Seriously what does the rest of the world do to balance their checkbook and credit ca...
by stvyreb
Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:46 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Psychological effects of Early Retirement in peak earning years.
Replies: 63
Views: 8327

Re: Psychological effects of Early Retirement in peak earning years.

There is also sequence of return risk. The main issue, speaking personally is Health Care costs and Housing costs, which along with sequence of return are going to be unpredictable. But, your not asking that. Mentally, however, will also be unknown. If you feel your identity and social world, is str...
by stvyreb
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:55 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Military: Investing a Windfall in Expensive Market?
Replies: 16
Views: 2558

Re: Military: Investing a Windfall in Expensive Market?

as boring as it sounds, pick an allocation, buy index funds. done. PS try to get rid of loans, probably don't bother with Roth this or that, as your too young to know, whether you need tax diversification for another decade or two IMO ; looking at equities return now, shouldn't change your planning ...
by stvyreb
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:48 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: 24F Looking to start an aggressive portfolio
Replies: 31
Views: 3290

Re: 24F Looking to start an aggressive portfolio

how about "your age in bonds" ; maybe you could define what "agressive" means to you. All Boats are Floating UP now. But, more important would be to start reading some of the BH books, like Mr. Bernstein's stuff. Eventually, I am doubting we are in a secular Bull situation, in fact looking more like...
by stvyreb
Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "Vanguard fund shareholders encouraged to vote as proxy campaign gets under way."
Replies: 89
Views: 27749

Re: "Vanguard fund shareholders encouraged to vote as proxy campaign gets under way."

Can someone please provide an example of a listed U.S. corporation that contributes to genocide or crimes against humanity? Most of the big "US" corporations, are now "multinationals", I'd venture to guess. I read through all the posts here, and I don't feel any closer to any facts or research or s...
by stvyreb
Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:13 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Terminal Cancer Diagnosis for 5 year old: What would you do?
Replies: 32
Views: 6906

Re: Terminal Cancer Diagnosis for 5 year old: What would you do?

Do you have some numbers to crunch? Or is that what your asking?
Eg what exactly are the health plans/deductibles/out of pocket max's/co-pay/drug coverages formularies &/or have they sought some counseling on their health plan?
by stvyreb
Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:47 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

Assuming I rollover the account to VG. I get year end values and April 1, 2013 value? for the account from The Custodian, mail Form 5329 with copies of RMDs taken from the rolled over account @ VG. Must I then also go back and amend all my tax returns for year 13-16 ? I seem to need some form of CPA...
by stvyreb
Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:13 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

Best, ICM[/quote] Actually, my brother & I , Are the ‘surviving children’, and submitted proof to Mercer (the administrator of ‘The Plan’) ; and have already received the packet with forms to distribute the benefit, as I explained above. With Mercer, stating April, 2014, and the ‘Required Begin Date...
by stvyreb
Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:09 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

foo

I have 39 pages from TPMG, offering lump sum rollover to an IRA or 10 different kinds of annuities, it is simply called a "retirement plan", so,....... yes, I'm confused, or I wouldn't be here, asking questions. What I think I'm hearing, from BHs, is that IF there are "RMDs", then it is not a DBP, i...
by stvyreb
Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:05 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

DBP IRA RMD Issue ....

So, let's assume A) it is a Defined Benefit Plan (aka ?a "pension") eg https://www.mercer.com/what-we-do/wealth-and-investments/defined-contribution-plans.html B) Person passed away Dec, 2012 at Age 75, however never began taking RMD, because they continued to work. C) The DBP administrator is stati...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:49 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department

If your father would be turning 77 or 78 this year, he would be required to withdraw about 5% of the value of the account. Look at the most recent RMD statement and multiply the RMD by 20 to get an estimate of the account value. However, allowing it to turn into an annuity is now another problem. Y...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:38 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

I'll have to contact, the CPA that did the final 1040 for my father, and run it by the CPA, what is going to happen because my deceased father, nor his heirs took RMDs. yes, I think I alluded to the fact , father worked there for 30 years, probably the 'pension' was phased out and perhaps, it was fu...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:54 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

4 years later, few months ago I was contacting them again to get letters stopped in my father's name that were coming in duplicate, with back dates, stating "take your RMD before it converts to an annuity, before you are penalized". RMD seems to me would mean a 401k, 403b, etc. - .......yes that cr...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:49 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

Also seems possible that the initial communication was that there was no defined benefit pension based on his second, lesser job. ..........perhaps, however, this was not the explanation given to me, all I was told by a supervisor, was that "upon further review" it was discovered, however this does...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:44 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Re: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I think it is an old style defined benefit type thing. Sadly, dad passed, and didn't share his private affairs much, He retired from management, and returned a few years later in a lesser role (which is when I think he accumulated the 401k portion) . Though, he was i...
by stvyreb
Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:22 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?
Replies: 32
Views: 3792

Misguided by Pension Department- ?Legal Need?

Hello, My deceased father, passed 4 years ago. After being strung along by his hospital's HR department, whom wanted to have nothing to do with the Pension side of his possible benefits, we were told, 5 months after he passed, " that there was no pension " via a letter from the company, which we pro...
by stvyreb
Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:23 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth "earned income" is 1040 Line 7 only? (salary) ; filing an amendment ? :)
Replies: 8
Views: 963

Re: Roth "earned income" is 1040 Line 7 only? (salary) ; filing an amendment ? :)

ah ok, though looks to be about the same for my case. so no Roth, no TIRA, no need amendment it seems ...guess it's not turbotax job to sort out eligibility...........? Includes ... wages, salaries, etc. commissions self-employment income. alimony and separate maintenance. nontaxable combat pay. Doe...
by stvyreb
Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:44 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth "earned income" is 1040 Line 7 only? (salary) ; filing an amendment ? :)
Replies: 8
Views: 963

Roth "earned income" is 1040 Line 7 only? (salary) ; filing an amendment ? :)

The BG wiki says : "Contributions may be made only by those having earned income and making under a certain income ; anyone can convert a Traditional IRA to a Roth. Contributions are not tax-deductible." my question is what qualifies as "earned income" ? THEN I guess the "and" may not matter, eg if ...