Search found 323 matches

by sc9182
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:25 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Where did RMD threads/noise has gone - over this round of market tumbling ?
Replies: 2
Views: 372

Where did RMD threads/noise has gone - over this round of market tumbling ?

It’s less than a month since markets have taken to cleaners. Not seeing much action/activity on RMD threads nor hearing much RMD noise! Is this due to markets (and portfolios) being down, or because of early in the year - hence not forced to make withdrawal decisions yet !? To give more jitters - if...
by sc9182
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:49 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?
Replies: 50
Views: 5906

Re: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?

Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take? With, or without accounting for inflation ? Lol, if folks are having hard time achieving 1.0 ratio as it is, you want to throw inflation math into it ! Good number of already low-Percentile folks will then be eliminated— making ha...
by sc9182
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:21 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?
Replies: 50
Views: 5906

Re: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?

Assuming wage increases by 2% and return is 7%/yr. If one saves 30%, it takes 33 yrs. If one saves 40%, it takes 25 yrs. If 50%, 19 yrs If 60%, 14 yrs Didn’t check math - but this (years) sounds about right. If you are able to front load your savings in early part of your career with decent salary ...
by sc9182
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:04 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?
Replies: 50
Views: 5906

Re: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?

Fun topic. I am 42 and about 1x. If I retire tomorrow (hypothetical), I would remain at about 1x due to low expenses. If I keep working, I would remain about 1x due to income tax bite and low forecasted growth for a conservative asset allocation. Ask this same question in 5 years, very possible I r...
by sc9182
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:03 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses
Replies: 2119
Views: 372719

Re: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses

hotpancakes wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:31 pm
Does anyone have any recent data points on whether Fidelity or Schwab offer retention bonuses? If so, how much? Thanks! :-)
Fidelity no chance - unless you have about $5MM;
Dunno about Schwab.
Heard ETrade can do upwards of $18k for $10MM
by sc9182
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:07 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?
Replies: 50
Views: 5906

Re: Net worth approaching lifetime earnings. How many years did it take?

You will see good bit of younger folks get this ratio in good ranges- due to - awareness of FIRE, raising markets over past 11 years (almost), and not much raising salaries over this bull market period. If you are looking for such stats for folks working for 20-25 years., it is a bit harder - due to...
by sc9182
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:09 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 30 year Refi to increase retirement savings?
Replies: 14
Views: 1321

Re: 30 year Refi to increase retirement savings?

Disagree with this advice. The OP did not say "I can afford a 15 year payment while also saving for (or maxing contribs to) retirement." Thus, paying extra on a 30 would mean directing potential retirement contribs to the mortgage. This is not a good idea. Get a 30 year, save as much as you can in ...
by sc9182
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 30 year Refi to increase retirement savings?
Replies: 14
Views: 1321

Re: 30 year Refi to increase retirement savings?

Lawsuits aside - we are talking not-being-able to maximize retirement accounts and younger OP., and worried about Lawsuit/bankruptcy protection. Get Umbrella and don’t attempt financially high-risk moves! Now to the main point 15 vs 30 year mortgage term: Like others pointed about - while younger (a...
by sc9182
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:17 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: I bought Consumer Reports lowest rated car...
Replies: 76
Views: 9345

Re: I bought Consumer Reports lowest rated car...

It’s going to be moot point in near future - as American manufacturers announced plans of moving away from making us cars; instead focus on Trucks and SUVs. You may not see any US cars in there, let alone their ratings!?
by sc9182
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:08 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: I bought Consumer Reports lowest rated car...
Replies: 76
Views: 9345

Re: I bought Consumer Reports lowest rated car...

Nobody attempts to design and build a worst rated car. Good for OP to have achieved automotive Nirvana on cheap (didn’t even pay attention to crash ratings nor resale values). Even badly rated cars/manufacturers end up making a good vehicle - as a chance. Most of the unreliability is due to poor/che...
by sc9182
Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:33 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses
Replies: 2119
Views: 372719

Re: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses

Has anyone done the M1 transfer bonus? How have you liked them? Any caveats/issues? It seems that is one of the few I am interested in (IRA, don't want to open additional accounts like for ME). Are in-kind transfers fine? The website for a transfer led me to a pretty primitive page. Had requested t...
by sc9182
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:02 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: U.S. stocks continue to soar!
Replies: 5624
Views: 481241

Re: U.S. stocks continue to soar!

I test drove a Tesla and new Porsche Taycan yesterday and I would take the Taycan over Tesla any day. The Porsche Taycan will hurt Tesla's sales. Though it’s off-topic, needs clarity: different cars suit personalities/driving-styles. Re: “ Taycan will hurt Tesla's sales” - doubt if it will, by much...
by sc9182
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:42 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Why do so many people quote "You will likely be in a lower tax bracket in retirement"
Replies: 756
Views: 65615

Re: Why do so many people quote "You will likely be in a lower tax bracket in retirement"

I personally know quite a few people who have recently retired that have warned me that they were definitely not in a lower tax bracket in retirement than when they were in their accumulation phase. While some of them have pensions, that is not the only income that is "filling up" their lower brack...
by sc9182
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:28 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses
Replies: 2119
Views: 372719

Re: The Final, Definitive Thread on Brokerage Transfer Bonuses

I saw an offer of a $5000 bonus for a $750,000 deposit at PNC (Bank) Brokerage. What’s the catch? Must be for a managed account, i.e. you have to sign up and pay an advisory fee. May be tad bit late, this promotion appears to be over, unless opened already !? Thought it was over at the end of last ...
by sc9182
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:07 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Relationship mortgage discounts for moving a million assets
Replies: 444
Views: 63505

Re: Relationship mortgage discounts for moving a million assets

Posting to see if anyone has updated rates for relationship-based mortgages. Below are rates I received from JPMorgan earlier this week: They allow 15% down payments without PMI. They also don't require points or any other fees other than those "to cover third-party costs incurred on a client’s beh...
by sc9182
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:58 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Relationship mortgage discounts for moving a million assets
Replies: 444
Views: 63505

Re: Relationship mortgage discounts for moving a million assets

RJ is still at 2.625% for 5/1 with no relationship with $1100 origination. If you are eligible, Navy Federal has excellent 3/1 rates and competitive 5/1 or 5/5 rates with no relationship. I just closed a 3/1 jumbo with no points/origination at 2.375 and they have gone down since then. I was eligibl...
by sc9182
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:17 am
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: Tax Deferred account: Are we top heavy?
Replies: 14
Views: 1467

Re: Tax Deferred account: Are we top heavy?

To add to what others said: $2million plus, many years to grow in tax deferred ; Plus decent pensions (on top of SS) is what/when you may feel Pre-Tax/tax-deferred buckets may have grown a bit larger % of your assets. There are similar variants of this concern, especially leading to many a RMD posti...
by sc9182
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

I have been back and forth on a Tesla and the flood of comments about range and fueling miss, for me, a more relevant concern. By way of illustration: Whenever I encounter a Tesla driver I make an effort to learn of their experience. A recent encounter, with a 100d, revealed that in the 13 months o...
by sc9182
Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?
Replies: 177
Views: 13003

Re: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?

Five reasons to keep some funds in traditional IRAs, even for Roth IRA lovers : https://www.investmentnews.com/article/20190819/BLOG09/190819930 ! Definitely do NOT clean-up/Roth-convert traditional IRAs fully -- you could/may withdraw monies for multiple reasons with minimal/near-zero tax rates fr...
by sc9182
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:59 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?
Replies: 177
Views: 13003

Re: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?

Some people know about the need to pay ordinary income tax on the withdrawal itself, but aren't aware of the sometimes multiple "torpedo" effects of having tax relief on social security, dividends, and LTCGs reversed due to the RMDs pushing taxable income past various relevant income thresholds. He...
by sc9182
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:35 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?
Replies: 177
Views: 13003

Re: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?

Five reasons to keep some funds in traditional IRAs, even for Roth IRA lovers : https://www.kff.org/medicaid/issue-brief/the-coverage-gap-uninsured-poor-adults-in-states-that-do-not-expand-medicaid/ ! Definitely do NOT clean-up/Roth-convert traditional IRAs fully -- you could/may withdraw monies for...
by sc9182
Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:23 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?
Replies: 177
Views: 13003

Re: Why all the angst about RMDs and taxes?

Folks do adopt kids (in addition to pets), re-marry (thus possibly have more kids via spouse), have tax-free large insurance payout, move to tax-free/low-tax state, delay/right-time your SS, partial Roth convert (especially/ideally during low tax years and/or when your account takes a beating during...
by sc9182
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:26 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

I'm all for EVs, but it seems the best use case at this stage of the EV evolution is for local travel where one can charge at home or work rather than depend on commercial charging, especially during inclement weather and holiday traffic. Here's one recent news story: https://keyt.com/traffic-2/201...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:17 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: My mega backdoor Roth hesitations - justified or ill-informed?
Replies: 39
Views: 3040

Re: My mega backdoor Roth hesitations - justified or ill-informed?

Keep it simple. Roll mega Backdoor “after-tax” contributions to in-plan Roth 401(k). Fidelity can set it up such that - a) your after tax contributions roll to Roth immediately b) have it automatically invested rather than sitting in cash or something .. Fidelity has automated both steps (a and b) T...
by sc9182
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:16 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Tesla Owners: Worth the hassle?
Replies: 88
Views: 7122

Re: Tesla Owners: Worth the hassle?

I am pretty sure the Supercharger lines were all in California, where the Tesla is insanely popular and the charging infrastructure is insufficient for the demand. I have never seen or heard of lines elsewhere. I have never waited to charge in more than a year of ownership on the East Coast. This p...
by sc9182
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:02 am
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: Roth 401(k) vs. Roth IRA
Replies: 41
Views: 4542

Re: Roth 401(k) vs. Roth IRA

For Mega Backdoor Roth - I currently prefer to send/convert those after-tax contributions to Roth 401(k)., like JBTX mentioned earlier - no 8606 issues. More importantly, if you have amounts in regular/trad IRAs (not 401k) — Mega Backdoor Roth May potentially trigger ProRata rules. I don’t know even...
by sc9182
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:11 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?
Replies: 152
Views: 12124

Re: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?

How is it that dirt poor immigrants can succeed where so many native born US citizens somehow have bad luck. Some dirt poor immigrants succeed. Some don't. Some native born US citizens succeed. Some don't. If you are referring to merit/education/job based legal immigrants -- many of those who come ...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:59 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?
Replies: 152
Views: 12124

Re: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?

I’ve been to a bunch of Christmas parties recently where people are discussing their incredible stock market gains with statements like, “I won’t be able to spend all my money in my lifetime’, ‘I’m $1.5 million richer’. I too am blessedly in the same situation but am having a hard time for two reas...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:29 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

.. I love the Tesla brand and the car and I hope they succeed. But you sound like a Tesla salesguy, not worth my time. Goodbye. Isn't this Pot calling Kettle ? I've asked and bought up important questions/points related to OP's topic. If this discussion is about whether to buy or not - unfortunatel...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:18 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?
Replies: 152
Views: 12124

Re: Is any one uncomfortable with their wealth?

I’ve been to a bunch of Christmas parties recently where people are discussing their incredible stock market gains with statements like, “I won’t be able to spend all my money in my lifetime’, ‘I’m $1.5 million richer’. I too am blessedly in the same situation but am having a hard time for two reas...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:01 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Tesla BMS will charge to 4.2v, but Tesla has been capping battery voltage on some of their older X and S models on the top end. So those owners have lost about 10-15% capacity, literally overnight. I've read that Tesla has done some battery management on the bottom end of some M3's, losing some cap...
by sc9182
Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:04 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Tesla BMS will charge to 4.2v, but Tesla has been capping battery voltage on some of their older X and S models on the top end. So those owners have lost about 10-15% capacity, literally overnight. I've read that Tesla has done some battery management on the bottom end of some M3's, losing some cap...
by sc9182
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:08 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Cancel group disability policy to increase individual policy?
Replies: 24
Views: 1364

Re: Cancel group disability policy to increase individual policy?

If your job were to become obsolete (say, in 2-3 decades) — ala milk-delivery man — obsolete/very-underpaid — with an individual DI policy - how would it continue to pay up !? If you are severely disabled, that - you are unable/fail to maintain CE credits, training, re-certification to maintain full...
by sc9182
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:12 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Cancel group disability policy to increase individual policy?
Replies: 24
Views: 1364

Re: Cancel group disability policy to increase individual policy?

Near zero experience with insurance industry nor medical, nor claims. With that disc, allow me to share a few thoughts: Employer provided disability - employer has vested interest to protect good employees- hence they could support your case/claim — to the best extent; with hope is that you rest/rec...
by sc9182
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:48 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Have a friend who got Model 3, just over 1.5 years ago. He mentioned no noticeable battery degradation- after about 30k miles. His kWH/mile average didn’t change much - nor his electric bill (this is hard to measure, but asked him anyway). He doesn’t even use those aero wheel caps, just ensures tire...
by sc9182
Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:37 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Do you subscribe to Consumer Reports?
Replies: 57
Views: 3998

Re: Do you subscribe to Consumer Reports?

I don't read it. Years ago I bought a Chevy Vega based on their glowing recommendation -- terrible car -- aluminum engine block. There are plenty of reviews from other sources on-line for almost anything you might want to buy. Not sure if CR ever had recommendation for Vega - May be it since has be...
by sc9182
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:38 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

The nerfing and charge reductions isn't only on the older S and X cars, it's happening on the newer ones too. In addition, Tesla has now found that instead of reducing the range literally overnight on some vehicles via an update, they're doing it over time so the owners don't notice the range reduc...
by sc9182
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:12 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Admittedly know very little about Tesla Model 3, but encountered this article about the common complaints on the automobile. Among the listed were shoddy construction (really? Says sunken hoods, falling bumpers), wonky touchscreen for the infotainment system, flickers on the screen, audio problems,...
by sc9182
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:52 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3
Replies: 921
Views: 80536

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Admittedly know very little about Tesla Model 3, but encountered this article about the common complaints on the automobile. Among the listed were shoddy construction (really? Says sunken hoods, falling bumpers), wonky touchscreen for the infotainment system, flickers on the screen, audio problems,...
by sc9182
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:55 pm
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: what should I be doing with my after-tax 401k contributions?
Replies: 30
Views: 2445

Re: what should I be doing with my after-tax 401k contributions?

If you have outside IRA, converting after tax contributions (with built in gains) to Roth IRA could invoke odd prorata rules (dunno, but sure to check!). If you don’t have outside IRA, no problem. Covert after tax as soon as plan allows into Roth 401k! Thus keeping any prorate rules at bay. Somebody...
by sc9182
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: U.S. stocks continue to soar!
Replies: 5624
Views: 481241

Re: U.S. stocks continue to soar!

It’s about time this thread got active again! Great day for gold accumulators. Even with today's drop, it's been a good year for gold. It's outperformed the S&P 500. Did Gold net outperform S&P considering 28% precious metals tax ! Do I see gold’s 5 year performance is 23%, ie., averaging under 5% ...
by sc9182
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Beating the stock market requires high risk premium
Replies: 60
Views: 4126

Re: Beating the stock market requires high risk premium

I believe Jim Cramer mentioned that stocks are the best means of social mobility. In markets - it takes money to make money — and — looong time being/stay invested! With good degree, assuming thus, leading to decent job/career., you not only get to save+invest monies, and could be accumulating time...
by sc9182
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:44 am
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: When Did You Ease Up On Saving Aggressively?
Replies: 170
Views: 14213

Re: When Did You Ease Up On Saving Aggressively?

Pedal to the metal. Keep saving and investing and look for ways to increase. If market returns are below historical average you will be thankful you did save and invest more. Good point. For every dollar in your reduced savings, it’s likely that - your lifestyle creep ate most of that $1 This incre...
by sc9182
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:27 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Long commute: how to manage?
Replies: 110
Views: 7910

Re: Long commute: how to manage?

Lots of good suggestions thus far. I commute by motorcycle and find that much faster, cheaper and more enjoyable than a car (but obviously you sacrifice a lot of comfort and safety). My wife gets audio books from the library and that works for her. I listen to a lot of podcasts, but tend not to do ...
by sc9182
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Long commute: how to manage?
Replies: 110
Views: 7910

Re: Long commute: how to manage?

One of my cohorts who used to be stressed out due to long commute, started to be lot more pleasant, in fact turned very happier kind. Everybody thought he may have been blessed with bigger raise and/or bonus. Later he confided to some of us - that Tesla 3 Autopilot made his hour+ long highway commut...
by sc9182
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:41 pm
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: Laid Off - Want to Retire / Am I OK
Replies: 145
Views: 20456

Re: Laid Off - Want to Retire / Am I OK

Couldn’t possibly plan or do better than what you’ve done. Plenty of Taxable to cover till a few logical breaks: age 55 from employer 401k withdrawal , age 59 1/2 for Ira withdrawals, able to get SS (age 62-70, depending on health and other needs/circumstances). This is not correct. The "age 55 rul...
by sc9182
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:31 am
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: Laid Off - Want to Retire / Am I OK
Replies: 145
Views: 20456

Re: Laid Off - Want to Retire / Am I OK

Couldn’t possibly plan or do better than what you’ve done. Plenty of Taxable to cover till a few logical breaks: age 55 from employer 401k withdrawal, age 59 1/2 for Ira withdrawals, able to get SS (age 62-70, depending on health and other needs/circumstances). If you (or spouse) wish to share your ...
by sc9182
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:24 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Would you have your teen attend a meeting with your CFP?
Replies: 33
Views: 1857

Re: Would you have your teen attend a meeting with your CFP?

Terrible idea. Don't torture your teenager with this unless they have specifically asked to go to this meeting. There's a lot of other situations that I would tick off first: Car buying is one. LOL - totally agree. My family now knows that we/I have ONE (yes 1, only ONE) stock of Amazon. Now, the k...
by sc9182
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:26 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Tax Loss Harvesting Worth it?
Replies: 176
Views: 13977

Re: Tax Loss Harvesting Worth it?

One additional point along the lines of TLH: Traditional IRA to Roth IRA conversion (may be partial) during market downturns. heard/read many folks may have performed such conversions, during 2008/2009 time-frame.
by sc9182
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:35 pm
Forum: Personal Investments
Topic: A little discouraged with earnings, is it really this slow?
Replies: 96
Views: 16315

Re: A little discouraged with earnings, is it really this slow?

Your returns typically depends on your average balance. In extreme simplistic math: your average balance has been only about $50k over the last 5+ years., NOT 100k you contributed. Now, you calculate your return and tell me how you feel !! Somewhat related, mainly to give perspective of the consiste...