Search found 4258 matches

by kaneohe
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Alreday converted to Roth from Traditional IRA. Can I do it again ?
Replies: 5
Views: 279

Re: Alreday converted to Roth from Traditional IRA. Can I do it again ?

The Wizard wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:30 pm
Bit of confusion here.
Wrt tIRA, pro rata refers to the percentage of funds in the tIRA that are pretax vs after tax.
Not clear if OP had any after tax funds involved.
Was first transaction a backdoor Roth contribution?
OP said no tax on conversion........I assumed that meant backdoor.
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:26 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Alreday converted to Roth from Traditional IRA. Can I do it again ?
Replies: 5
Views: 279

Re: Alreday converted to Roth from Traditional IRA. Can I do it again ?

You should use F8606 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8606.pdf to do the simple case of the backdoor Roth w/o the 401K transfer to demonstrate that no tax is due. Then use the same form with the 401K transfer toTIRA to convince yourself that you should not do that before yr end to avoid the pro-rata...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:59 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?
Replies: 20
Views: 1782

Re: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?

Here's AlanS on a similar topic: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=209496 Re: IRA basis question Report this post Quote Post by Alan S. » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:00 pm It is generally correct that if your balance is 0 you have no basis. One rare exception would be if your balance is 0 beca...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:57 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?
Replies: 20
Views: 1782

Re: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?

Why do you need to keep some basis for following years? Isn't the point to convert as much as you can as early as you can? For example, say I have a basis of $50,000 in a TIRA that is worth $60,000. I convert now and pay taxes on $10,000. Or if I convert when the market brings the TIRA value down t...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:34 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?
Replies: 20
Views: 1782

Re: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?

........................................................ I'm 56 now and would plan to convert my Rollover IRA over 3-4 years. Does this mean each converted lump has a 5-yr holding period? That seems odd. How does someone keep track of that? .............................................................
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:50 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Where to Park Future Tax Payment
Replies: 8
Views: 564

Re: Where to Park Future Tax Payment

https://www.ally.com/bank/no-penalty-cd/#rates

Take a look at Ally Bank's 11 mo no-penalty-CD now yielding 1.50% if CD >25K. You can withdraw at any time w/o penalty.
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:17 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

Thanks for all the useful information folks. Can't believe I've misunderstood this concept all these years. The good news is that I've kept good records, which are discussed in the instructions for FORM 8606. There is another "work around" similar to the one I mentioned above, but closer to what yo...
by kaneohe
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:50 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?
Replies: 20
Views: 1782

Re: Roth Conversion 5yr Holding Period?

Keep in mind once you are 59 1/2, you don't need to wait the 5 years on converted funds (as you would already have an exemption for being 59 1/2). For more info, see here: https://www.kitces.com/blog/understanding-the-two-5-year-rules-for-roth-ira-contributions-and-conversions/ pobox2001 just for c...
by kaneohe
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:22 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

Thanks for all the useful information folks. Can't believe I've misunderstood this concept all these years. The good news is that I've kept good records, which are discussed in the instructions for FORM 8606. so are you still selling the TIRA w/ non-deductible contributions? Why or why not? Have yo...
by kaneohe
Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

Interesting discussion about deductible and non deductible assets in an IRA. I have a traditional IRA like this. I also lived in California when I funded most of this IRA. This means I had NO California deductions, and some federal deductions in this traditional IRA. I had completely forgotten abou...
by kaneohe
Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:05 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)
Replies: 34
Views: 4252

Re: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)

....................................... I will be 70 in April 2018. So here is my example: my RMD for 2018 will be $14,000. I can start my RMDs in January 2018 by withdrawing $10,000. Then in October after I turned 70.5, I can do my QCD for $4,000. Is that correct? In addition, do I indicate to Van...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:37 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: IRA Withdrawal Rules for Surviving Spouse age 57
Replies: 7
Views: 828

Re: IRA Withdrawal Rules for Surviving Spouse age 57

basically yes, if she makes the IRA her own https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/pl ... eneficiary
For the Roth, the same if the account is >=5 yrs old.
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:50 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?
Replies: 32
Views: 1831

Re: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?

.............................................................................. I know it is difficult for many timid Bogleheads to imagine, but let's be wild and crazy just this once--we will not bother filing Form 2210. Instead we will let the IRS assess the interest penalty for us. (Is that livin...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:49 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?
Replies: 32
Views: 1831

Re: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?

Safe harbors require equal quarterly payments. If you are really paying estimated taxes as OP suggests, if you adjust at end of yr, the payments won't be equal so you won't meet safe harbor. You get off the hook as suggested in previous posts by the F2210-AI route or if you do withholding, instead ...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Contributions to a non-deductible tIRA vs. taxable
Replies: 18
Views: 921

Re: Contributions to a non-deductible tIRA vs. taxable

............................................... So i can't make deductible, or Roth, or even back-door Roth contributions. I don't understand the negatives of putting $ into a non-deductible IRA vs a taxable brokerage account. In both cases you don't get a deduction for contributing. Tie so far. Wh...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:45 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

I agreed with him and have plans to liquidate my non-deductible IRA within the first year or two of my retirement. Perhaps I'm reading something into this statement, but it sounds like you think you can just take the money from the IRA with the non-deductible contributions and not pay tax. You cann...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:23 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

........................................... Where things get really complicated is when you have non-deduction contributions co-mingled with deductible contributions. In that case you need to keep meticulous records so that when you take distributions, you (and possibly your beneficiaries) can dete...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:13 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Lack of Feedback from Vanguard Reps when Suggestions are Made
Replies: 5
Views: 439

Re: Lack of Feedback from Vanguard Reps when Suggestions are Made

Highly doubtful that is specific to VG. I tell companies all the time how to improve their process and can only think of time when I got a reply and they actually made a change. I suppose it is not time-efficient for them to contact everyone who makes suggestions even if they make a change since man...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:49 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

...................................... I do have the 1040's and did make $10.5K in contributions from 1982-86. (appears that IRA max was $2250 in 85 & 86). Unfortunately, I Roth converted all my tIRA money several years ago so maybe I'm out of luck. :oops: I think it's too late to amend 2013 federa...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:37 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

I have a question along similar lines, what if it's inherited? A couple of years ago my father left me an IRA. Do I need his old records, or is that a moot point after it has been retitled? You might to go thru old tax returns to see if there is basis in the IRA If he was taking RMDs,then you shoul...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:57 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How long to keep IRA records?
Replies: 54
Views: 3123

Re: How long to keep IRA records?

I've looked in IRS Pub 552, and searched BH. But I'm still unsure about throwing away records from IRAs dating back 25 years. Several transfers from one custodian to another. NO after-tax contributions, hence no 8606's. Since any distributions are now taxable, what can I lose by not keeping these a...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:35 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: IRA withdrawal tax aConsider couple on Medicare and over 70.5 years of age. They must take RMDsnd Medicare implications
Replies: 13
Views: 1116

Re: IRA withdrawal tax aConsider couple on Medicare and over 70.5 years of age. They must take RMDsnd Medicare implicat

I have had good luck with tax caster, but when it comes to income impacts on medicare premiums I make my own spreadsheet and calculate how much I can convert from my IRA to Roth in late December after my cap gain distributions and dividends are actual numbers instead of estimates. A small error can...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:10 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: IRA withdrawal tax aConsider couple on Medicare and over 70.5 years of age. They must take RMDsnd Medicare implications
Replies: 13
Views: 1116

Re: IRA withdrawal tax aConsider couple on Medicare and over 70.5 years of age. They must take RMDsnd Medicare implicat

Consider couple on Medicare and over 70.5 years of age. They must take RMDs each year from their IRAs (and any 401ks). After they have taken their RMDs in a year (............................... (2) If yes, then if they withdraw significant funds, each dollar will be added to that year's income so ...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:56 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?
Replies: 32
Views: 1831

Re: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?

You will meet the safe harbor if the extra income comes in December and you check to see that you meet the safe harbor requirements by the deadline for the fourth quarter estimated tax payment. Having to fill out a form to show the income and payments by quarter is part of that, which is the simple...
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?
Replies: 32
Views: 1831

Re: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?

The simplest way is to make sure you meet the safe harbor for 2018. If you check before the end of the year you can adjust as needed. Safe harbors require equal quarterly payments. If you are really paying estimated taxes as OP suggests, if you adjust at end of yr, the payments won't be equal so yo...
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:38 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?
Replies: 32
Views: 1831

Re: When to pay estimated taxes on mutual fund distributions in December 2018?

.................................... Does the IRS know that a distribution is paid-out in December 2018, rather than January 2018? Do the tax statements include a date of when the distribution was made? If so, that would show that I wasn't holding out on making quarterly payments. IRS assumes that ...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:02 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)
Replies: 34
Views: 4252

Re: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)

Almost there wrote: Celia, the way I learned from other Bogleheads is that the QCD has to be taken before any RMD withdrawal. quote] Kaneohe wrote: That is not true...........you can take them in any order. However if you want to withdraw the least from the IRA, then you will make the QCD and the r...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:51 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505
Replies: 10
Views: 598

Re: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505

The Obamacare social security and Medicare taxes ARE part of the total if you are subject to them. They are part of line 63 coming from the OTHER TAXES section but I got the impression that OP was looking for Medicare/SS withholding to be used along w/ normal income tax withholding as "credits/paym...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:27 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505
Replies: 10
Views: 598

Re: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p505.pdf Trying to make sure I am properly interpreting this... I will have some substantial capital-gains this year, which I believe would qualify me for estimated tax payments. I believe I can get out of this by having more withheld this year (2017) than in 2016. W...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:21 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505
Replies: 10
Views: 598

Re: Estimated Tax: Interpreting 2017 Publication 505

Line 63 is INCOME tax as calculated in the 1040 w/ adjustments for credits and other taxes. Normal Medicare and SS taxes are not in the equation for your payments.........just withholding and estimated taxes. CASDI is similar in that respect to Medicare/SS taxes......you pay (withhold) them but they...
by kaneohe
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:28 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)
Replies: 34
Views: 4252

Re: "When's the Right Time to Take RMDs?" – (Christine Benz's Latest Column)

Celia, the way I learned from other Bogleheads is that the QCD has to be taken before any RMD withdrawal. That is not true...........you can take them in any order. However if you want to withdraw the least from the IRA, then you will make the QCD and the rest of the withdrawals = the RMD. EX: Your...
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:05 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How much Roth conversion?
Replies: 14
Views: 1161

Re: How much Roth conversion?

Nyc10036 wrote:...........................

How much of my tIRA can I convert and stay below 15% tax rate?
Did you mean < 15% ; therefore 10%
or did you mean below the top of the 15% bracket?
by kaneohe
Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why do graphical comparisons of mutual fund trailing returns change with the length of the time horizon?
Replies: 18
Views: 1278

Re: Why do graphical comparisons of mutual fund trailing returns change with the length of the time horizon?

I understand that in any given year one fund can out perform another but still under perform in the long term, but what confused me was that I would have thought that in the ten year view you would be able to see the point on the graph where AWSHX has "overtaken" LCCAX in the last year but that doe...
by kaneohe
Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why do graphical comparisons of mutual fund trailing returns change with the length of the time horizon?
Replies: 18
Views: 1278

Re: Why do graphical comparisons of mutual fund trailing returns change with the length of the time horizon?

I think something even better than a "Growth of $10,000" chart would be a "Cost of $100,000" chart. Would love to see that be a clickable option at morningstar (or even better, the default). The right hand endpoint of such a chart would be today's date (or whatever endpoint is selected), with a val...
by kaneohe
Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:18 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy
Replies: 10
Views: 606

Re: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy

cas, thanks for input. I'm going to blame it on my sidekick......HRB calculator so if it's right, me too and if it's wrong, I'm innocent. I just let it do std deduction since there was no info, put in 3 kids. I did notice that the personal exemption/CTC were 0 even w/ no LTCG but the std deduction r...
by kaneohe
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:45 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy
Replies: 10
Views: 606

Re: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy

........................, I’ll have gains of 200K which will incur a hefty capital gains tax with my current 39.6% tax bracket (~ 60K in taxes I believe)...................................... to put this in some perspective: I had to look up the 39.6% bracket and it seems that this "hefty" CG tax i...
by kaneohe
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:24 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy
Replies: 10
Views: 606

Re: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy

How about the middle road: C)A phased withdrawal starting now to at least start mitigating the risk. If you phase over a number of number of years, your income isn't bumped up so much in any one year. Phase it over 5 yrs or more and you'll sell some when you're in the lower bracket. Thanks for the ...
by kaneohe
Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:12 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy
Replies: 10
Views: 606

Re: Help! Newbie capital gains question on diversification strategy

How about the middle road:
C)A phased withdrawal starting now to at least start mitigating the risk. If you phase over a number of number of years, your income
isn't bumped up so much in any one year. Phase it over 5 yrs or more and you'll sell some when you're in the lower bracket.
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:08 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Tax Planning - 15% Long Term Capital Gains changes ordinary income?
Replies: 5
Views: 784

Re: Tax Planning - 15% Long Term Capital Gains changes ordinary income?

A tax calculator like the HR Block one gives a detailed summary at the end. A simple summary of a similar situation: Taxes and Nonrefundable Credits $56,231 Regular Tax: $52,190 Alternative Minimum Tax: $2,141 Net Investment Tax: $1,900 Since you already know that LTCG is calculated the same way for...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:56 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth Conversion - Math check
Replies: 22
Views: 1354

Re: Roth Conversion - Math check

[ I must be part clock. I am right 2 times a day. It's when you are close to retirement that you should consider tax rates. There isn't sufficient time to makemoney grow to compensate for taxes paid. :D . That's more than some of us! I do think that OP's case is a bit special tho since there is a l...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:59 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth Conversion - Math check
Replies: 22
Views: 1354

Re: Roth Conversion - Math check

Would it be possible to roll your IRA into a 401k and then roll the after-tax portion from the 401k into a roth IRA? The tax rate would have to be much lower for waiting to pay. This is an interesting situation. The conventional wisdom is to move the deductible part to a 401K and then to do the con...
by kaneohe
Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:23 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Roth Conversion - Math check
Replies: 22
Views: 1354

Re: Roth Conversion - Math check

Thank you - I don't see myself in a lower tax bracket anytime soon.... The "soon" part doesn't matter. If you foresee paying a lower rate many years from now it would be good to wait for that. If not only do you not see a lower rate soon, but don't expect one ever, then convert away! This is an int...
by kaneohe
Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:37 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Why no federal income tax obligation?
Replies: 31
Views: 2742

Re: Why no federal income tax obligation?

Interesting plot,FiveK. This suggests that the max amount of LTCG that can be added and still keep 0 tax is surprising low.....5K or 8K but certainly less than 10K. Certainly much less than my intuition would have guessed. I'm guessing that part of this is the SS effect and part is the medical deduc...
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:55 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Why no federal income tax obligation?
Replies: 31
Views: 2742

Re: Why no federal income tax obligation?

A simple, but not exact answer regarding realizing more in taxable gains tax free is that the top of the 15% tax bracket is $75,900 in taxable income for 2017. So if your qualified dividends remained constant AND if everything else was a wash (income less deductions and exemptions) it would be 75,9...
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:09 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Why no federal income tax obligation?
Replies: 31
Views: 2742

Re: Why no federal income tax obligation?

.................... If the above analysis is true, then it is clear that we could realize some capital gains and still have zero tax. How can I calculate how much capital gains we could show and still have zero tax? Now is the perfect time to learn how to use a tax calculator like this https://www...
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:48 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Manufacturers repairing/replacing out of warranty products for free
Replies: 15
Views: 1024

Re: Manufacturers repairing/replacing out of warranty products for free

Price Pfister has been great about replacing the kitchen faucet valve at no charge .......have replaced
multiples over the yrs. Been awhile since the last one so I can't remember if they started charging a nominal
shipping charge?
by kaneohe
Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:55 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Roth, Taxes and Mistakes
Replies: 41
Views: 4014

Re: Roth, Taxes and Mistakes

I ....................... She was the one that had us move to filing separately so we would get a larger refund from 2012- 2014. .................................. We will owe 6% penalties for every year this continued..... plus all Roth money (30,000) will need to be pulled with the 10% early with...
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:16 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Recharacterizing a Roth IRA - Need help with Vanguard form
Replies: 18
Views: 644

Re: Recharacterizing a Roth IRA - Need help with Vanguard form

Here is an article about the recharacterization calculation http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/03/092403.asp Note that it says the calculation is not necessary if you are doing a full recharacterization (and the conversion was made into a new Roth and there were no other transactions in...
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:29 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Recharacterizing a Roth IRA - Need help with Vanguard form
Replies: 18
Views: 644

Re: Recharacterizing a Roth IRA - Need help with Vanguard form

Have no idea since my broker always did it ..........but it seems like since you put the conversion into a brand new Roth and , I assume,didn't add anything to it and are doing a 100% recharacterization, it should be done correctly. (it wold be different if you put this into a pre-existing Roth) Pt ...
by kaneohe
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:47 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Losing confidence in Ally Bank - what would you do
Replies: 58
Views: 6591

Re: Losing confidence in Ally Bank - what would you do

Do you have some other institution that you have confidence in that you could use as a hub to shuttle things around. I use my broker
and have had no problems. Often the restrictions on how much you move can be lessened also.