Search found 17466 matches

by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:47 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Help! Need to decide which mortgage option to go with today
Replies: 21
Views: 1062

Re: Help! Need to decide which mortgage option to go with today

Hi all, [EDITED TO ADD OPTION 4] My wife and I (both 32 years old) are under contract on a $1M property. We have the following mortgage options from the lender: 1) 30 year fixed, 10% down, 4% rate. Principal + interest = $4383. No additional PMI relative to 20% down. 2) 7/1 ARM, 10% down, 3.625% ra...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Help Me Understand: Why Shouldn't AA Be 100% Stocks During Accumulation Phase?
Replies: 122
Views: 5965

Re: Help Me Understand: Why Shouldn't AA Be 100% Stocks During Accumulation Phase?

. Because doing so is a form of market timing in itself. How is adjusting your AA based on age market timing? You didn't include the context to which I was commenting. If you steam away at 100% equities until retirement, when do you suddenly switch to a 50/50 AA, for example? Do you watch the marke...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Company Match Worth It
Replies: 11
Views: 1322

Re: Company Match Worth It

So it turns out it is a 5304 SimpleIRA. I am determining how I can move the $ to Vanguard as I have had the Simple for over 2 years. If they have a 5304 plan in place they would have to allow me to move it by law, and match correct? Once I move the $ (about $45k), which fund should I put it into? M...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:14 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Asset Allocation - Tax Efficiencies
Replies: 12
Views: 759

Re: Asset Allocation - Tax Efficiencies

Columbia Small Cap Index A Growth (0.45%) Columbia Large Cap Index A Growth-and-income (0.45%) These are the two best funds in the 401(k), so I would suggest using them 'for the whole 401(k), holding international stocks and bonds in your IRA and taxable accounts. It isn't worth the extra 0.14% to ...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:09 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Advice on using Not great Bond Fund in 401k
Replies: 11
Views: 721

Re: Advice on using Not great Bond Fund in 401k

CA municipal-bond funds in a taxable account are particularly attractive, as they avoid CA tax as well as federal tax. Thus, given the high-expense bond fund in your 401(k), it's better to hold CA municipal bonds in your taxable account and keep your 401(k) in stock. In fact, at current yields, I no...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:06 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Selling MF with monthly dividend near end of month
Replies: 17
Views: 819

Re: Selling MF with monthly dividend near end of month

If you sell a fund after a dividend, and the fund doesn't accrue dividends, you pay tax on the dividend, but the share price declines by an equal amount. Thus you have a reduced capital gain, or increased capital loss, equal to the dividend. This will be close to a wash. It is worth waiting until af...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:01 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: single premium deffered annuities- traditional tax deferred or ROTH
Replies: 11
Views: 857

Re: single premium deffered annuities- traditional tax deferred or ROTH

In order to control your taxes, it's good to have some money in the traditional IRA which is not annuitized. In a year in which you donate a lot to charity or have huge medical expenses, you can take the money out of the traditional IRA at a lower-than-usual tax cost. If you have room in the 15% tax...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:30 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: HSA in CA (things to consider?)
Replies: 13
Views: 1108

Re: HSA in CA (things to consider?)

The HSA itself is not as beneficial as I was hoping for because the limitations of the program I'm in require $1000 cash and it's funds have high expenses. I will want to move it out as soon as I get a chance, like a not so good 401k plan. If this requires too much record keeping, it may not be wor...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:12 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: HSA in CA (things to consider?)
Replies: 13
Views: 1108

Re: HSA in CA (things to consider?)

Thanks for your replies, curmudgeon and grabiner. I put my CA HSA investment into an S&P500 index fund. A low cost option, and fairly tax-efficient. ... then a US stock index fund has a low tax cost. This is the part I don't understand. While S&P500 is tax efficient for federal tax purposes...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:43 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: High Yield Junk Bonds
Replies: 40
Views: 2975

Re: High Yield Junk Bonds

I think a small slice (5%) of true junk is probably OK as long as the rest of the bond allocation is solid. I would probably not do this myself though. I think the Vanguard high yield funds are not rated as junk. Last I checked they were actually in the mid quality range, not low quality. Vanguard ...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:07 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Move from Vanguard TR Fund to Admiral Shares Total Stock Market Index Fund?
Replies: 3
Views: 543

Re: Move from Vanguard TR Fund to Admiral Shares Total Stock Market Index Fund?

Welcome to the forum! Desired Asset allocation: 90% stocks / 10% bonds I have a Vanguard ROTH IRA. To date, it has $10,377.00 invested in Vanguard's 2060 Target Retirement fund. I'm thinking of changing over to Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Admiral Shares (VTSAX) to enjoy a lower expense ra...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:59 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: taxable account vs. extra principal payment
Replies: 13
Views: 933

Re: taxable account vs. extra principal payment

Thanks for the reply. I just checked with my current mortgage lender and its 15 yr. fixed@3.0(3.1APR) and close to 3k closing costs. Not sure if its really worth it if I'm paying the current extra 500 monthly extra principal anyhow, which will give me a payoff date in another 15 yrs. or so. I alway...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:46 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Should I take money out of Roth IRA to fund future student loans?
Replies: 10
Views: 401

Re: Should I take money out of Roth IRA to fund future student loans?

It's better to use a Traditional IRA rather than a Roth for your education. To get a Traditional IRA, roll your 403(b) over to one when you leave the employer. The reason to use the Traditional IRA is that you will be in a low tax bracket when you are a student, and IRA withdrawals for higher educat...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:36 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: HSA in CA (things to consider?)
Replies: 13
Views: 1108

Re: HSA in CA (things to consider?)

TIPS and Treasuries are great for an HSA in CA. You still need to keep cost basis records, as CA taxes capital gains on Treasuries, but those gains won't be significant. If TIPS and Treasuries don't fit your portfolio, or need to be held elsewhere (for example, you work for the US Government and hol...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:30 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Dump $5500 to Roth IRA on Day 1 of every year or split contribution to 12 months?
Replies: 32
Views: 2913

Re: Dump $5500 to Roth IRA on Day 1 of every year or split contribution to 12 months?

This is the same question as lump sum vs. dollar cost averaging. Lump sum comes out ahead two-thirds of the time. See https://pressroom.vanguard.com/nonindexed/7.23.2012_Dollar-cost_Averaging.pdf. Actually, it isn't the same issue. If you are dollar-cost averaging into the market, it's still better...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:30 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: limiting Cap Gains - with ETFs ?
Replies: 17
Views: 1261

Re: limiting Cap Gains - with ETFs ?

I've gone back - and using the Morningstar TAX tab to get the Tax Cost Ratio, and adding the columns for "returns" to see how things are affected... Interesting that the Vanguard LT Corp Bond fund Tax ratio is high, along with the Trowe Health Sciences fund Long-term bonds have higher yie...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:21 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: FTIPX - New Fidelity offering [Total International Index Fund]
Replies: 13
Views: 1440

Re: FTIPX - New Fidelity offering

It should perform pretty much the same as its Vanguard counterpart. I would feel better about that if Fidelity listed the fund's holdings. At present there is scarce little detail concerning the fund on their web site. It is following the index that Vanguard was using just a few years ago, before s...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:16 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: RMD - Thinking Getting Fuzzy
Replies: 9
Views: 1294

Re: RMD - Thinking Getting Fuzzy

This bull run has been carrying on for quite a while now and not having the clear crystal ball to see what might happen, if anything, in the near future I am beginning to think about the timing of my RMDs. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to taking them while the market evaluations are high o...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: What to look out for, when selling an after-tax mutual fund
Replies: 19
Views: 815

Re: What to look out for, when selling an after-tax mutual fund

My marginal tax rate was barely inside of 28% last year, with many deductions going down in the coming years I could jump to the next higher tax bracket. But, does this matter at all. As most of this will be LTCG, it will be taxed at 15%, only negligible amounts in short term capital gains. I have ...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.
Replies: 12
Views: 952

Re: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.

Watty and others, Yes, Phase out and ATM all happening. Also, I am paying 20 percent cap gain rate due to income level I got bumped into. At this tax rate, you are paying 23.8% federal tax on qualified dividends and capital gains (including ACA surtax), plus NJ tax which is not deductible from fede...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:59 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Adjust Withholdings through W4 Based on Maxed Retirement Contributions?
Replies: 8
Views: 658

Re: Adjust Withholdings through W4 Based on Maxed Retirement Contributions?

Cool, thanks for pointing me toward the calculator. When I put in our numbers it suggested that I change withholdings to 20 allowances because I have already paid more federal income tax up until now in 2016 than the total estimated tax bill will be for the year. So, effectively my employer will wi...
by grabiner
Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:55 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.
Replies: 12
Views: 952

Re: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.

Hmmm...municipal bond fund is a possibility. As for EST payments, CPA assured me I do not have to pay the taxes owed until April 15 of 2107. Something about Safe Harbor and it being a onetime merger of the company I had stock in. The safe harbor rule applies if withholding covers 100% or 110% of la...
by grabiner
Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:38 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: making VWINX (Wellesley inc) portfolio out of vanguard funds
Replies: 40
Views: 2559

Re: making VWINX (Wellesley inc) portfolio out of vanguard funds

Wellesley scores a "1" (out of 100) on tax efficiency % rank in category for 10-yr returns at morningstar. In other words, for its category, it is lights-out tax efficient. You only have one way to go from there.... that'd be down. That is after-tax returns, not tax efficiency. Wellesley ...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:12 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: My Two Favorite Tax Free Bond Funds
Replies: 7
Views: 1429

Re: My Two Favorite Tax Free Bond Funds

The Georgia fund is more than 4x as expensive as the national Vanguard fund. You might want to do the math on this one; any tax savings could be eaten my the fund's higher ER. And to make a fair comparison,you should compare the yield you would get on a Vanguard fund holding bonds of the same yield...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:01 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: VMBS vs BND
Replies: 10
Views: 829

Re: VMBS vs BND

What kind of loan obligations have a super positive convexity? Positive convexity = beneficial in rising interest? Negative convexity = detrimental in rising interest? Given two bonds of equal yield, the bond with positive convexity will have higher returns whether rates rise or fall, and equal ret...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:50 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Fund allocation between tax-deferred & tax-free accounts.
Replies: 6
Views: 570

Re: Fund allocation between tax-deferred & tax-free accounts.

There is no tax reason to put a particular fund in tax-deferred (traditional 401(k)/IRA/etc) or tax-free (Roth 401(k)/IRA/etc). Tax efficiency is irrelevant in either account, because distributions made by the fund are not taxed. One way to see this is to view your investments as though the IRS owns...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:06 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.
Replies: 12
Views: 952

Re: Large Cap Gain in Cash and AA has to be redone.

If you invest the money, you will owe even more in taxes, but you also probably have more money to pay the taxes. Even if you owe a penalty for not paying enough estimated tax, the penalty will be much less than the tax owed. (And you can reduce that penalty by paying the estimated tax quickly. If t...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: making VWINX (Wellesley inc) portfolio out of vanguard funds
Replies: 40
Views: 2559

Re: making VWINX (Wellesley inc) portfolio out of vanguard funds

I would like to make a Wellesley income fund (VWINX) equivalent out of vanguard ETF's or mutual funds to make it more tax efficient in a taxable account. (everyone on the board seems to agree that this fund is not tax efficient and bad for taxable accounts) But when I calculate the after-tax return...
by grabiner
Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:46 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help. The next step a taxable account.
Replies: 27
Views: 2543

Re: Help. The next step a taxable account.

The mantra of not having bonds in taxable is not as set in stone as it used to be, so you could use tsm and total bond fund ( or a muni fund if in more than 25% tax bracket). http://whitecoatinvestor.com/asset-location-bonds-go-in-taxable/ However, you should still use separate funds if you hold bo...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:01 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: 401k vs mortgage
Replies: 26
Views: 2157

Re: 401k vs mortgage

I agree with the decision to reduce your 401(k) contributions. However, you should treat this as borrowing from future contributions. Once you have refinanced your mortgage, make only the minimum mortgage payments, and contribute the extra money, including the savings from the lower interest rates, ...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:58 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Whether to put 20% or 10% down on house
Replies: 20
Views: 2304

Re: Whether to put 20% or 10% down on house

It's probably a far better deal to put down 20% instead of 10%. The reason for this is that a loan with only 10% down will typically have a higher interest rate which affects a far larger balance than the difference in down payment. Take this example. NFCU also offers loans with 10% down and no PMI...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:54 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Switching to muni bonds in taxable
Replies: 5
Views: 1056

Re: Switching to muni bonds in taxable

SInce you are in CA in a high federal and state tax bracket, munis are particularly attractive for your taxable account. You pay no more taxes on CA munis (zero) than any other investor does, but you pay higher taxes on qualified dividends and long-term capital gains than most other investors. At cu...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:40 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: How much i can withdraw from the account and the account to continue to grow ?
Replies: 24
Views: 1778

Re: How much i can withdraw from the account and the account to continue to grow ?

Hello I have some disputes with friends,about How much a investor can withdraw from the account and account to continue to grow ? For example,if he has a portfolio of 1 mil euro/USD/GBR and every year increase with 10 %(including expanses),how is the maximum % of the account that you can withdraw a...
by grabiner
Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:32 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Converting 1/2 of an IRA to Roth this year and 1/2 next year?
Replies: 20
Views: 1022

Re: Converting 1/2 of an IRA to Roth this year and 1/2 next year?

for a $300,000+ IRA, would it make sense to convert $150,000 to a Roth in 2016 and $150,000 in 2017 to lower the tax burden? it's the only IRA and all money is "pre-tax" from a 401(k) rollover. other income: $24k social security $12k pension $10k RMDs from the IRA Taxation of Social Secur...
by grabiner
Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:12 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: How to adjust asset placement
Replies: 4
Views: 328

Re: How to adjust asset placement

See Tax-adjusted asset allocation on the wiki. You are comparing holding an equal dollar amount of bonds in a 401(k) or a Roth IRA. This isn't actually a fair comparison, as holding bonds in the Roth IRA gives lower risk as well as lower expected return. If you withdraw the money in a 25% tax bracke...
by grabiner
Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:04 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: convert mutual fund to index fund
Replies: 29
Views: 1892

Re: convert mutual fund to index fund

Sorry if I sound kind of ignorant I do not know all to much about investing and what I am dealing with in regards to Merrill Lynch. As of right now I have unrealized gains of about 8 percent since March. I am unaware of any 1% or so fee from Merrill Lynch in addition to the mutual fund fees and bro...
by grabiner
Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:34 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Which sub-asset class in stocks would I move into bonds as I age?
Replies: 7
Views: 503

Re: Which sub-asset class in stocks would I move into bonds as I age?

If you are paying down a mortgage in retirement, that is the only new "investment" you are making and it is real estate, so it would make sense to cut down on the REITS first (since I am not crazy about REITS anyway). Next, I would reduce the foreign investments, 2:1 seems high. The last ...
by grabiner
Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: $500,000 in cash in retirement account. Now what?
Replies: 29
Views: 4282

Re: $500,000 in cash in retirement account. Now what?

The reason I don't recommend dollar-cost averaging in this situation is that your money was already in stock. You have been through stock-market swings already, so you have some idea of your risk tolerance. If you are putting the same amount into stock that you had before (say, replacing a 60%-stock...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:23 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TSP Loan Question
Replies: 14
Views: 755

Re: TSP Loan Question

Thanks for all of the replies! What about the theory of requesting a TSP loan when stocks are at an all time high? I'm about 85% stocks/15% bonds, so the majority of the funds would pull from stocks while they're worth the most. Is this theory flawed? Split the decision into two: 1. Should you take...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:06 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: EVLMC [active muni ETF] vs VTEB [Vanguard muni ETF]
Replies: 1
Views: 155

Re: EVLMC [active muni ETF] vs VTEB [Vanguard muni ETF]

Interest-rate risk affects the price of all bonds, whether they are sold or not. The ladder structure doesn't change that. In fact, a bond fund behaves like a ladder. An intermediate-term bond might hold bonds 5-10 years from maturity. Every year, it sells 5-year bonds and buys new 10-year bonds to ...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:03 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Info only: VG calculates cost basis during fund to ETF conversion
Replies: 1
Views: 227

Re: Info only: VG calculates cost basis during fund to ETF conversion

If you have non-covered shares, Vanguard has only an average-cost basis, and converts that basis over to the ETF conversion. However, you can correct this manually; Vanguard lets you edit basis information for non-covered shares. I had to do this when I converted Vanguard Tax-Managed International t...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:58 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: TSP Loan Question
Replies: 14
Views: 755

Re: TSP Loan Question

If you take a loan from your TSP, you could change your TSP allocation so that you still have the same stock holding as before taking out the loan. Doing this effectively means that you are taking a loan at just over the G fund rate, which is a good deal if you need a loan. For simplicity, assume yo...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:49 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: NO bonds in my taxable account, really?
Replies: 38
Views: 3433

Re: NO bonds in my taxable account, really?

I have read in both The Finance Buff and The White Coat Investor that bonds go in taxable. They had some math to back it up, but I don't remember whether their assumptions matched all investing circumstances or which ones. I have not seen math to justify bonds in tax sheltered. The math depends on ...
by grabiner
Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:35 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Installment Loans to help FICO?
Replies: 22
Views: 1059

Re: Installment Loans to help FICO?

He told me to do exactly what you folks said - utilize <10% of credit limits on each card and pay off all but a couple bucks when the statement is made, that way the score can grow a bit. I was under the impression that having the card and paying it off would help. I'm sure it did, but having a sma...
by grabiner
Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:59 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Fund in taxable account and too good to be true?
Replies: 13
Views: 1563

Re: Fund in taxable account and too good to be true?

1. Does Vanguard Tax-Managed Balanced Admiral - VTMFX belong in a taxable account? If you hold it, then it belongs in a taxable account. It holds municipal bonds which are exempt from state taxes, and selects its stocks to lower dividend yields and thus reduce dividend taxes; neither of these is of...
by grabiner
Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:37 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Installment Loans to help FICO?
Replies: 22
Views: 1059

Re: Installment Loans to help FICO?

Some steps that you can take for improving your credit score in the mean time would be: - never let a statement be cut, for any credit card that you use, for a balance of more than 2% of the credit limit. This would mean using the credit card much like cash; make a purchase, come home and pay off t...
by grabiner
Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Refinance, make bigger payments, invest in taxable, or do nothing?
Replies: 7
Views: 730

Re: Refinance, make bigger payments, invest in taxable, or do nothing?

If you are considering making extra payments on the mortgage, then you should refinance for 15 years. This allows you to make extra payments and get a bigger benefit, as you pay less in interest.
by grabiner
Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Taxable vs Tax-Deferred for withdrawal?
Replies: 3
Views: 381

Re: Taxable vs Tax-Deferred for withdrawal?

The advantage of withdrawing from a taxable account is that it isn't all taxed. If you withdraw $10,000 from a taxable stock fund and pay 15% tax on your capital gains, you may pay only $750 in tax if you have a $5000 basis. In addition, you get rid of future taxes on dividends. Note that even in th...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:17 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Long term bond funds
Replies: 26
Views: 2233

Re: Long term bond funds

If you are a long way from retirement, you can buy long-term bonds. However, since long-term bonds are particularly attractive to insurance companies and pension funds, you may not be adequately rewarded for the risk; this is why intermediate-term bonds tend to be more common recommendations. I am ...
by grabiner
Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:58 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Long term bond funds
Replies: 26
Views: 2233

Re: Long term bond funds

The advice I've seen is to buy bonds, or bond funds, according to your holding period. It is recommended that the duration of a fund should be shorter than the time you can keep the bond. For example, if you plan to use the money to buy a house in 8 years, you can invest in a bond that matures in 8...

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