Search found 5057 matches

by bobcat2
Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:11 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Is my computer obsolete?
Replies: 55
Views: 3121

Re: Is my computer obsolete?

One thing I'm concerned about here is the security issues mentioned by several. I would use it for most of my financial transactions, plus the work I do for the church's finances. Windows 10 is more secure? I currently use my work computer for all of this, which has Windows 7, but also is supported...
by bobcat2
Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:23 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Is my computer obsolete?
Replies: 55
Views: 3121

Re: Is my computer obsolete?

You should be cautious about keeping financial information on a machine with a significantly outdated operating system, especially someone else's financial information. You should seriously consider upgrading to Windows 10 regardless of whether you like it better or not because it is generally ackn...
by bobcat2
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:15 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Do I have 3 different investment horizons when planning for retirement?
Replies: 32
Views: 2119

Re: Do I have 3 different investment horizons when planning for retirement?

Then I've got a 10-40 year horizon after I reach 70. Your chances of having a 40 year investment horizon at age 70 is far less than 1/10 of 1%. :wink: BobK Unless he has a special-needs child, a 20-year-old spouse, or some other post-death requirement... :happy Au contraire, GAAP. :wink: The OP was...
by bobcat2
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:45 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Do I have 3 different investment horizons when planning for retirement?
Replies: 32
Views: 2119

Re: Do I have 3 different investment horizons when planning for retirement?

dknightd wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:46 pm
Then I've got a 10-40 year horizon after I reach 70.
Your chances of having a 40 year investment horizon at age 70 is far less than 1/10 of 1%. :wink:

BobK
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:39 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds
Replies: 142
Views: 8656

Re: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds

And here's a quote from the Bogleheads Wiki on emerging market bonds. In the first edition (2006) of author Rick Ferri's book, All About Asset Allocation, the author included emerging market bonds as a potential portion of a widely diversified taxable bond allocation. The author suggested the follow...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds
Replies: 142
Views: 8656

Re: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds

I'm quoting from the first edition of All About Asset Allocation page 149. Check it at Amazon.

BobK
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:01 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds
Replies: 142
Views: 8656

Re: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds

I'm quoting from your book. The book you wrote. Are you making a distinction between emerging market debt and emerging market bonds?

Anybody can go to Amazon and search the book at page 149 and see the quote and the table.

BobK
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:54 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds
Replies: 142
Views: 8656

Re: I’m still not a fan of international bond funds

I’m still not a fan of international bond funds I’ve never been a big fan of international bond funds (see my “All About Asset Allocation” book and other posts I’ve made here in the past). Rick Ferri From All About Asset Allocation by Richard Ferri page 149, Chapter 8 Fixed Income Investments Table...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:41 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

But it is also possible that technological progress going forward will be disappointing, just as it has been over the last 50 years. Actually, doesn't this prove the opposite of the pessimistic point? If the last 50 years were indeed terrible for technological progress, yet we STILL got very good r...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:08 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

Too many of us are caught up in the moment and can't see the forest for the trees. I would add what I consider the biggest improvement in the last fifty years: computers and the internet.Yes, we don't travel around in jet hovercrafts or whatever the futuristic visions of the 1950s looked like. But ...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:05 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

While I agree that low profits and even stagnation is possible, the changes in technology we are facing in the next 30 years are pretty impressive. Robotics, automation, transportation, information, energy, genetics, health care, agriculture, and other technologies that aren't even thought of at pr...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:55 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

I didn't mean to say it was intentional on anyone's part, just why the numbers are different than the widely cited average of 7% . The way it just happened to work out was each set started at the beginning of a really bad bear and ended with a not so awesome bull market as far as gains go. The "wid...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

Picking the two worst dates is not representative. You don't need to pick the bottom of a bear to get about 7%, you just need to pick almost any other two points. Average returns are for long term investing anyways, not predicting medium or short term. I did not intentionally pick really bad dates....
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:32 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

Real returns on equities last 50 years (1968-2017) US 5.7% World 5.3% Real returns on equities for 18 years of 21st century (2000-2017) US 3.5% World 2.9% source: Credit Suisse Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2018 I can check the US returns from 2000-2017 at the following source. When I do the r...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:58 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

Historical real returns are something like 7% on equities Real returns on equities last 50 years (1968-2017) US 5.7% World 5.3% Real returns on equities for 18 years of 21st century (2000-2017) US 3.5% World 2.9% source: Credit Suisse Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2018 The first half of the 11...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:27 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

For example and with all due respect to Bob K, Bernstein, and others, in my opinion the concept of the LMP is not at all a solidly established strategy recommendation for retirement, ... Since I have been singled out, I want to respond. I do not recommend constructing a liability managed portfolio ...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:04 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

From the presentation. My Fidelity expert humorously described TIPS investors as “doomsday” people who: • Worry a lot • Build bunkers in case of nuclear war • Buy lots of gold • Distrust the government (which is comical, because TIPS are issued by the government. For even more humor in the presentat...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:24 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

On the Perspective 2 slide we get the following observation which is stated as a known fact, but rejected by many financial experts. Investors with large stock allocations do not need to buy TIPS because stocks are a good inflation hedge. We often hear this opinion - Is it true? The truth is stocks ...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:51 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

The presenter misunderstands how TIPS should be used by individual investors to hedge against inflation. Simply holding TIPS bonds or TIPS funds in a portfolio will not in any meaningful sense hedge the portfolio against inflation. Nor should the individual investor be interested in attempting to he...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:27 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

Here's another oddity in the presentation. While he neglects to mention using a TIPS bond ladder as a liability matching asset for retirement income, he does talk about bond ladders. In the section titled " Better (inflation) Hedge Alternatives " there is a discussion of using nominal bond ladders i...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:09 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’
Replies: 88
Views: 12346

Re: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’

Hi nedsaid,

I have a question. Have you checked your private messages in the last few days? :wink:

BobK
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:54 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

Right, Slide #6 says he wasn't going to make any recommendation. Though early on, he clearly states he won't buy tips for now. Uses red fonts only in "Arguments against TIPs" section and never in the "arguments for TIPs" section Provides 6 main arguments against TIPs and only 4 for arguments for TI...
by bobcat2
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:58 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?
Replies: 153
Views: 8368

Re: Why are expected returns so much lower than historical returns?

Historical real returns are something like 7% on equities Real returns on equities last 50 years (1968-2017) US 5.7% World 5.3% Real returns on equities for 18 years of 21st century (2000-2017) US 3.5% World 2.9% source: Credit Suisse Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2018 The first half of the 11...
by bobcat2
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)
Replies: 53
Views: 4674

Re: Introduction to Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS)

I think the presentation missed what I consider to be the best use for TIPS--that is for liability matching. As retirees withdrawing from our portfolio for living expenses, we are more concerned about predictable, real cash flow than income. As has been discussed on this board many times, nothing d...
by bobcat2
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:35 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’
Replies: 88
Views: 12346

Re: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’

I also firmly believe in what the bond market tells us. The bond analysts are by nature pessimistic and gloomy. When you see interest rates pick up, that tells you something. Clearly, when the 10 year treasury goes from 1.5% and approaches 3%, there is a message in there. That is higher economic an...
by bobcat2
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:40 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’
Replies: 88
Views: 12346

Re: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’

Hi Nedsaid, I am simply reporting some facts using data. Where's your data to support your claims? You claimed normal US economic growth over the last several years was about 1%. I pointed out that actually over the last 8 years average US economic growth was over twice that fast and there was no ye...
by bobcat2
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:39 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’
Replies: 88
Views: 12346

Re: Bogle on stock turbulence: ‘never seen a market this volatile to this extent in my career’

What is happening is that the underlying economic assumptions are changing and the market is adjusting. For one thing, the "new normal" of 1% economic growth with very low inflation if not a whiff of deflation and very low interest rates are over. The market knows that economic growth is accelerati...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:02 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

The basic point of this thread is the following. One person works 40 years and finances 20 years of retirement. Another person works the same 40 years and finances 30 years of retirement. It should be clear that if their economic resources are the same, the person financing an additional 10 years of...
by bobcat2
Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:49 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

I can't read this thread without thinking about Keynes' essay, "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren". It would appear that Keynes was significantly over optimistic in his predictions. What are the economic possibilities for our grandchildren? ... All this means in the long run that mankind...
by bobcat2
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:57 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

bb wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:49 am
Of all the things to worry about in the universe - worrying about your typical American saving too much money?
No. The worry is that people are not working long enough, given longer life expectancy at age 65.

BobK
by bobcat2
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:18 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

Merton is simply stating a hard fact. If I work for 40 years to age 65 followed by being retired for 10 years, I will have a higher standard of living over my lifetime than if I work for 40 years to age 65 followed by being retired for 30 years. This seems pretty obvious to me. The good news is that...
by bobcat2
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:07 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

Rethinking Retirement Basically, Merton says it boils down to this: “You either have to work longer or accept a lower standard of living. What you can’t do is work the same number of years as your parents, live longer and enjoy the same standard of living. That’s not feasible.” Link - http://www.re...
by bobcat2
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:45 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

When talking about macroeconomic productivity, to have measurable productivity increases, ultimately you have to have more output. In the agricultural revolution and then industrial revolution the increase in output is quite obvious. The net result was MORE production. In terms of Information Age, ...
by bobcat2
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:58 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

We're well on track to work fewer years than our parents and grandparents (none of whom received a pension of any sort) yet have a higher standard of living and a longer retirement. This is due to having a higher income than most, a much higher savings rate, and more aggressive investments (my in-l...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers
Replies: 118
Views: 17169

Re: Trying the Impossible - Financing 30-Year Retirements with 40-Year Careers

If you are going to keep the same standard of living you had obtained in the years leading up to retirement during retirement, you, and your children, are going to have to work longer than your parents did to keep the same relative standard of living. (Living standards in general do increase over ti...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bill Bernstein, new podcast
Replies: 56
Views: 5881

Re: Bill Bernstein, new podcast

How exactly are t-bills a risky asset long-term, when they historically have kept up with inflation? His first statement was the more correct one; they're close to a risk free asset, and I would add for any length of time. The risk free asset is the asset whose return is certain over the period of ...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:22 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bill Bernstein, new podcast
Replies: 56
Views: 5881

Re: Bill Bernstein, new podcast

BobK, am I correct to infer that you think DFA's target funds allow saving for retirement according to the Funded Ratio? Thank you. L.C. No, they cannot possibly be based on the funded ratio for that would require knowing the size of your portfolio, how much you intend to save between now and retir...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:33 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bill Bernstein, new podcast
Replies: 56
Views: 5881

Re: Bill Bernstein, new podcast

Victoria, My point about Bernstein is he appears to misunderstand the concept of consumption smoothing. He writes. The theory that he’s talking about is something called consumption smoothing. Maybe you even borrow money when you’re young so you can live in a nice house when you’re young and you can...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Bill Bernstein, new podcast
Replies: 56
Views: 5881

Re: Bill Bernstein, new podcast

I also enjoyed Bernstein's take on hedonic adaptation. He really makes a lot of sense. Overall I thought it was a good interview but the part about consumption smoothing and hedonic adaption made little sense. If you maintain an even standard of living from the time you’re 20 until the time you’re ...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:32 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Article on "Buckets" at Morningstar. How Does The Bucket Approach To Retirement Allocation apply to you?
Replies: 23
Views: 2365

Re: Article on "Buckets" at Morningstar. How Does The Bucket Approach To Retirement Allocation apply to you?

Here's an article by Dirk Cotton at The Retirement Cafe looking at bucket strategies. Note - Cotton in the article refers to bucket strategies as "time segmentation strategies". I'm crossing Time Segmentation (bucket strategies) off my list of sound retirement income strategies, not because it is fl...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:02 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Article on "Buckets" at Morningstar. How Does The Bucket Approach To Retirement Allocation apply to you?
Replies: 23
Views: 2365

Re: Article on "Buckets" at Morningstar. How Does The Bucket Approach To Retirement Allocation apply to you?

What advice and/or suggestions would you give others who are inquiring about "Bucket Strategies"? Don't do it. The most succinct article I'm aware of that discusses the foolishness of all bucket strategies is Can Buckets Bail-Out a Poor Sequence of Investment Returns? by Moshe A. Milevsky. Here is ...
by bobcat2
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:16 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 30 yr tips auction 2/15: 1.0% yield?
Replies: 172
Views: 15362

Re: 30 yr tips auction 2/15: 1.0% yield?

Where are all these fully inflation adjusted annuities? No commercial issuer that I have found wants to take on that risk, which tells me exactly how great the risks of inflation are, as viewed by the people who should know. A 3% limit is like buying a fire insurance policy with a $100k max on your...
by bobcat2
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:13 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Unanswered: Clements Highlights 4 Questions of Much Debate
Replies: 27
Views: 2373

Re: Unanswered: Clements Highlights 4 Questions of Much Debate

I would consider buying a deferred inflation-adjusted annuity where the payout amount is indexed to inflation both during the deferral period and during the payout period. I think the current products do not adjust for inflation during the deferral period but only during the payout period. That wou...
by bobcat2
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:39 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Unanswered: Clements Highlights 4 Questions of Much Debate
Replies: 27
Views: 2373

Re: Unanswered: Clements Highlights 4 Questions of Much Debate

On the annuity the problem is you really want a inflation adjusted (real) annuity. ...And there are no deferred inflation adjusted annuities. So i would say yes to the annuity but perhaps wait till you are in your early eighties. grok That's simply not true. Upon reading that I priced a deferred re...
by bobcat2
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:20 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Got a Question for the Experts Panel at the Bogleheads Conference?
Replies: 11
Views: 3455

Re: Got a Question for the Experts Panel at the Bogleheads Conference?

When helping people plan for retirement do you use the funded ratio to monitor their progress toward reaching their retirement income goal? Please talk about your reasons for using or not using the funded ratio in your work.

Thanks,
BobK
by bobcat2
Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:39 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: What Movie Have You Recently Watched?
Replies: 3502
Views: 987886

Re: What Movie Have You Recently Watched?

Saw "The Death of Stalin" earlier this week. There are a few slow spots and sometimes the near slapstick comedy doesn't quite work, but despite the flaws this is a really good movie. The combination of absurd comedy and deadly horrific actions keeps one totally engaged in this story. You don't know ...
by bobcat2
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:28 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning
Replies: 114
Views: 7579

Re: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning

Arbitrarily picks 50% allocation to TIPS at age 50 and increases that allocation to 61% at age 65. Criteria for this increase is not given. In reply So in the example I gave at age 50, the long-term tips portfolio was half funded as the person was halfway through her career. That doesn't make sense...
by bobcat2
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning
Replies: 114
Views: 7579

Re: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning

BobK, I am a small business owner that comes to this site to get ideas and insights. I have no formal education or affiliation with any financial institutions or any products that they may offer. I have read a number of your posts now and they appear to come from some form or experience or career e...
by bobcat2
Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:17 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning
Replies: 114
Views: 7579

Re: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning

The insurance companies don't think that rates will go up in the future. Instead they charge more (or offer less) becaue they think the future returns might be less. No. That is not the reason for the way insurance companies invest in bonds. They duration match bonds against annuity liabilities to ...
by bobcat2
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:24 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning
Replies: 114
Views: 7579

Re: Grok's LMP-4: The 3-legged stool approach to retirement planning

The LDI strategy early on with regard to the 401k consists of a US stock index fund, an international stock index fund, and a LT bond fund. I don’t think a 1-size-fits-all asset location mapping is going to be tax efficient for all retirement savers. You can add more stock funds if you want, but th...