Search found 798 matches

by SeeMoe
Wed May 24, 2017 3:51 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: American Funds beat out Vanguard Index over lifetime?
Replies: 63
Views: 6951

Re: American Funds beat out Vanguard Index over lifetime?

I really don't care what they say regards beating the other guy by a few points with skewed statistics. When a salesman mentioned American funds to me years ago, after just getting out of other load funds and a broker who liked to " churn" my folio, I saw the load and hung up fast! Vanguar...
by SeeMoe
Tue May 23, 2017 7:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Adding money to my 3 fund retirement account
Replies: 4
Views: 811

Re: Adding money to my 3 fund retirement account

Why not rollover the 457b plan into a T-IRA account with Vanguard? That's what I did 21 years ago and I gradually reduced the stock portion until the TIRA is 100% bond funds now that we are taking RMD' s the end of each year.

SeeMoe.. :?
by SeeMoe
Mon May 22, 2017 8:30 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "Stocks, Bonds and Future Returns" by Prof. Jeremy Siegel
Replies: 65
Views: 5232

Re: "Stocks, Bonds and Future Returns" by Prof. Jeremy Siegel

Japan is a good example of situations that have made it difficult for U.S. investors to " stay the course " with an international allocation. :wink: The Japanese version of John Bogle would have said back in 1989 that the large Japanese Multi-National companies derive a lot of their reven...
by SeeMoe
Fri May 19, 2017 1:43 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: I'm hearing conflicting advice on putting bonds in tax-protected accounts....?
Replies: 20
Views: 2419

Re: I'm hearing conflicting advice on putting bonds in tax-protected accounts....?

The idea of having 100% bond funds in a DCP is to significantly reduce volatility. Especially during the distribution phase of life. Or so the experts contend, and I , reluctantly at first, agree. Experts say stocks are 4 times more volatile than bonds.

SeeMoe.. :moneybag
by SeeMoe
Thu May 18, 2017 1:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: International: Where's the benefit?
Replies: 63
Views: 4811

Re: International: Where's the benefit?

If I can rephrase your question a bit - "hey it seems that international is not highly correlated to US, so what is the benefit?" Answer - some folks like diversification. :beer Good point per stock diversification, but can the same be said for, say, the total international bond index mar...
by SeeMoe
Sun May 14, 2017 3:36 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Newly Disabled and Need Good Advice
Replies: 16
Views: 1664

Re: Newly Disabled and Need Good Advice

<snip> The lawyers will get a chunk of your eventual SSDI claim " for life,...!" Generally, that is not correct. The lawyers (assuming a successful claim) can get up to $6K of back benefits paid to them for their services. There may be additional up front costs related to record gathering...
by SeeMoe
Sat May 13, 2017 1:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Newly Disabled and Need Good Advice
Replies: 16
Views: 1664

Re: Newly Disabled and Need Good Advice

It's a real shame that a legitimately injured worker has to hire a lawyer to mouthpiece his Claim thru the SS disability process! The lawyers will get a chunk of your eventual SSDI claim " for life,...!" The evident reason for the backlog is because so many deadbeats, especially younger on...
by SeeMoe
Fri May 12, 2017 6:18 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Retirees, what is your marginal tax rate?
Replies: 33
Views: 2888

Re: Retirees, what is your marginal tax rate?

A better question would be: "how much do you receive from all pension income, and what is your marginal tax rate?" We clear over $200k with all benefits included and have been retired more than 21 years. Still, our CPA keeps our taxes down to the 15% margin thus far. Of course a lot of the...
by SeeMoe
Thu May 11, 2017 1:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Anyone use Python to analyze their finances?
Replies: 40
Views: 5680

Re: Anyone use Python to analyze their finances?

I use Python to get market cap, sector, industry, price quote, and after-hours price quote for tickers from the Yahoo! earning calendar and to put that data into a sortable Web form in an attempt to find stocks to invest in. So far, I haven't invested in anything turned up by the program, but I've ...
by SeeMoe
Tue May 09, 2017 7:37 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Most Common Financial Mistakes
Replies: 108
Views: 13718

Re: Most Common Financial Mistakes

Not understanding how to get a grip and control FEAR and GREED emotions. Especially Fear when the bottom falls out of the markets and panic becomes palpable and appears to be all consuming! I have kept records of my reactions to Fear since the early 1980's and my reaction to 4 or 5 of the biggest do...
by SeeMoe
Mon May 08, 2017 4:41 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Buying second home in Georgia- tax implications
Replies: 9
Views: 917

Re: Buying second home in Georgia- tax implications

The preceding posts appear to answer your questions. My thoughts concern maintaining two properties. We did that for 15 years before finally retiring to the vacation property 2 hours upstate. We spent a lot of bucks fixing up one and maintaining the other. Always concerned about the one or the other...
by SeeMoe
Mon May 08, 2017 4:25 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Why save so much for when you're old?
Replies: 163
Views: 18191

Re: Why save so much for when you're old?

We did it , at first, for the nice tax deferrals that we received on our 2 IRA plans and then our 2 457b plans. Flollowing Vanguard advice we also began short term and intermediate term (taxable accounts)investment plans. This allowed us to take (normal)retirement in our early 50's and we were "...
by SeeMoe
Sun May 07, 2017 7:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: How Do You Like My New 'Doo
Replies: 48
Views: 11616

Re: How Do You Like My New 'Doo

I wish now that I'd of bought in to VISA when it went public a couple of years ago as I really like this company. It has done well since then too. Facebook is one that astonishes me, and I kind of wanted to buy in but still think it could go South quick as it has gone up! So I just stick to my Index...
by SeeMoe
Sat May 06, 2017 5:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Increasing correlation between US and international equities
Replies: 66
Views: 4247

Re: Increasing correlation between US and international equities

Can the same be said for total bond index and total international bond index funds being so similar that they are basically the same? I don't think so. As for stocks, I continue to have about 25% invested in the Total International Stock fund. And a lot more in the tax Managed Capital Appreciation f...
by SeeMoe
Sat May 06, 2017 5:04 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "Ten Commandments" by Jonathan Clements
Replies: 24
Views: 3267

Re: "Ten Commandments" by Jonathan Clements

It's worth reading the comments--there's a good dialogue on traditional vs. Roth IRA/401k between commenters and Mr. Clements. Indeed. I like Clements' statement regarding the traditional vs. Roth issue. "I'm a big fan of the Roth, especially for those who have retirement savings they'll proba...
by SeeMoe
Sat May 06, 2017 4:54 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "Ten Commandments" by Jonathan Clements
Replies: 24
Views: 3267

Re: "Ten Commandments" by Jonathan Clements

Just sent copies to the in-laws whom we can't seem to discuss finances with as the conversation always reverts to " it's to hard, go to a money manager".....Thanks for the 10 Commandments. Let them (inlaws) argue wth those olde truths!

SeeMoe: :beer
by SeeMoe
Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:51 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Reasons to Hold Corporate Bonds vs. Munis, given equal after-tax yield?
Replies: 7
Views: 778

Re: Reasons to Hold Corporate Bonds vs. Munis, given equal after-tax yield?

Our DCP folios are 100% taxable bond funds while our joint taxable account holds the stock index funds and tax deferred. Plus some total bond index that doesn't rock the tax rate..

SeeMoe.. :mrgreen:
by SeeMoe
Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:32 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: [Should I get an advisor?]
Replies: 14
Views: 1154

Re: [Should I get an advisor?]

Why not try a money manager for a year or so and then decide if you still need one, or can manage the portfolio that has been selected by you and the manager? Talk it over with Vanguard and then a couple of free lancers who don't also sell investment products. Maybe do a one time advisory with repor...
by SeeMoe
Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:49 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Torn on whether to close 3rd oldest credit card
Replies: 12
Views: 939

Re: Torn on whether to close 3rd oldest credit card

For the past 44 years I have had just one credit card from my credit union that gives me a 30 days grace period before charging the (hated!) interest. As I recall, that gave me the incentive to only charge as much each month that I could payoff without incurring interest charges! The savings ech mon...
by SeeMoe
Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:34 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Advice on Investment plan needed
Replies: 12
Views: 1070

Re: Advice on Investment plan needed

Best to talk it over with a trusted Vanguard Group advisor. Then go from there! My 60/40 AA would be tax Managed Capital Appreciation fund. A large Cap growth fund and a value fund. Then tax exempt Limited, intermediate and a long term state tax exempt fund. Maybe some total bond index too if your t...
by SeeMoe
Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:16 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Why invest in International Index Fund?
Replies: 39
Views: 3564

Re: Why invest in International Index Fund?

You didn't mention Total International Bond Index funds which are not currently offering more than 1% in dividends last I looked. Vanguard says it does offer some diversity, but others say it isn't enough to justify the costs of hedging and currency exchange...The International Stock Index fund thou...
by SeeMoe
Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Delaying SS (or not) and the tax torpedo
Replies: 41
Views: 4504

Re: Delaying SS (or not) and the tax torpedo

Have a bird in hand (SS),.. grab it soon as you can before the hacks Change the rules! It (SS) reduces payouts to new members due to financial instability. Etc....Pay the taxes and, if you are fortunate to have good sources of other income, invest the SS payments in Index funds. SeeMoe.. :shock: Fe...
by SeeMoe
Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Delaying SS (or not) and the tax torpedo
Replies: 41
Views: 4504

Re: Delaying SS (or not) and the tax torpedo

Have a bird in hand (SS),.. grab it soon as you can before the hacks Change the rules! It (SS) reduces payouts to new members due to financial instability. Etc....Pay the taxes and, if you are fortunate to have good sources of other income, invest the SS payments in Index funds.

SeeMoe.. :shock:
by SeeMoe
Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:28 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Jack Bogle, CNBC 10:am-
Replies: 0
Views: 396

Jack Bogle, CNBC 10:am-

It is always fascinating watching Master Bogle and CNBC seems mesmerized by him by the number of times he has appeared on their morning show. Today's take regards Index funds taking in over $1.2 Trillions recently while managed funds lost $1.2 trillion dollars. ETF's churn about 45% of market trades...
by SeeMoe
Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:21 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: What online bank do you use?
Replies: 68
Views: 5699

Re: What online bank do you use?

Past 44 years I/we have used just ONE source for our banking needs and that is PSECU= Pennsylvania State Employees Credit Union. No minimums and they Pay me to bank there in checking and the money market accounts. Use their VISA service with 30 day zero interest which I pay off the End of the month....
by SeeMoe
Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:23 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: 10 Year Note Goes Up, Taxable Bonds Go Down "Except:"
Replies: 4
Views: 586

Re: 10 Year Note Goes Up, Taxable Bonds Go Down "Except:"

Did the price of a previously-issued 10 year note go up, or did the yield on a 10 year note go up? "Bond prices fall as yields rise" -- every WSJ article about bonds, ever. I suspect the point about tax-exempt is due to shifts in perception of credit quality. It's really the only mathemat...
by SeeMoe
Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:47 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Low-earners- What is your profession?
Replies: 262
Views: 24428

Re: Low-earners- What is your profession?

I graduated from high school 2 years before my peers by joining the Marines at age 16 ( inked out a 5 to a 3 on my birth certificate and forged Moms name on the paperwork.) and passing the GED test while stationed on Okinawa back in the day. Later became a police officer , and later yet a sergeant w...
by SeeMoe
Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:32 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: 10 Year Note Goes Up, Taxable Bonds Go Down "Except:"
Replies: 4
Views: 586

10 Year Note Goes Up, Taxable Bonds Go Down "Except:"

....the tax exempt bond funds which either stay static, or increase a penny or two. Why? Today our Core bond fund lost .4 cents, total bond index .3 cents and the short term investment grade bond .1 cent in the T-IRA accounts. Conversely in the taxable account the Limited tax exempt was up .1 cent a...
by SeeMoe
Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:57 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:
Replies: 58
Views: 5937

Re: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:

Core bond's largest holding ($490 million) is "Japan Treasury Discount Bill". That's 74 percent of Core Bond's total assets. What does this mean about the character of Core Bond's portfolio? Oh, oh! Didn't know that. Somebody at Vanguard's Bond Dept. Evidently likes Japanese bonds as I sa...
by SeeMoe
Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:34 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:
Replies: 58
Views: 5937

Re: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:

Thanks to Ruraavalon, LAck-key, and Taylor and his references to master Bogle, R. Ferri, Etc. Who all avoid international bonds, it appears. I decided to dump my international bond index Admiral fund for the core bond Admiral fund. Not hard to do although Vanguard makes me feel a bit guilty doing so...
by SeeMoe
Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:52 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Prime Money Market Fund vs. Federal Money Market Fund
Replies: 36
Views: 4725

Re: Prime Money Market Fund vs. Federal Money Market Fund

What happens in October that would affect my PRime MM account? I use Prime mm to hold RMD MONIES and dividends, plus as a conduit between Vanguard and our bank. Plus periodic ACH payments to other entities. So how would those products be affected in October 2017, please? SeeMoe.. :?: It's already h...
by SeeMoe
Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Prime Money Market Fund vs. Federal Money Market Fund
Replies: 36
Views: 4725

Re: Prime Money Market Fund vs. Federal Money Market Fund

What happens in October that would affect my PRime MM account? I use Prime mm to hold RMD MONIES and dividends, plus as a conduit between Vanguard and our bank. Plus periodic ACH payments to other entities. So how would those products be affected in October 2017, please?

SeeMoe.. :?:
by SeeMoe
Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:
Replies: 58
Views: 5937

Re: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:

The argument against active management seems less convincing to me when applied to bonds. But that being said, considering that this is an actively managed fund, I'd like to see a longer track record compared to benchmarks before I would invest in it. It's only 60% bonds, but why not just go with W...
by SeeMoe
Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:49 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:
Replies: 58
Views: 5937

Vanguard Core Bond Fund (VCORX) One Year on:

Looking at posts about this fund here one year ago, I wonder how Bogleheads feel about this Managed bond fund today? Articles on this fund appear to think it 's a winner. Even Morningstar has taken the unusual step of listing it says Newsweek, although it is relatively new vs established funds. I'm ...
by SeeMoe
Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:51 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: RMD in 2018
Replies: 49
Views: 3318

Re: RMD in 2018

A CFP Advised me a while back to have our T-IRA accounts in 100% bonds, and take the RMDs at the end of the year in one lump sum which automatically goes to our taxable Vanguard account in the Prime MM. Our AA is 40/60 now, so most all of the RMD monies are reinvested in tax exempt bonds of the same...
by SeeMoe
Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:13 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Hussman doesn't view me an a true investor
Replies: 20
Views: 1856

Re: Hussman doesn't view me an a true investor

Mr. Hussman owes it to his long term fund investors ,in his annual newsletter , to publish the astounding chart that Nisiprius has submitted. But then those same long term investors would just shrug and think " maybe so, but maybe the master is right and this time around we will be the winners ...
by SeeMoe
Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Inlaw Suddenly Wants Financial Security in 60's..
Replies: 31
Views: 5569

Re: Inlaw Suddenly Wants Financial Security in 60's..

My wife is in touch with this woman in question quite frequently and she has been sharing the above comments with her, and just talking things over, her sudden chronic illness flaring up , the panic and realization it is time to stop working even though she loves her administrative job at a hospital...
by SeeMoe
Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)
Replies: 51
Views: 4891

Re: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)

That would be fair to say per indexing. Still can't see the point of moving from one index fund to another if the fees are similar? It's a headache too transferring in and out of investment companies on an ( apparent) whim... It isn't really a whim, as part of my financial overhaul I'm just questio...
by SeeMoe
Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:45 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Inlaw Suddenly Wants Financial Security in 60's..
Replies: 31
Views: 5569

Inlaw Suddenly Wants Financial Security in 60's..

She has a few hundred thousand in IRA's/403 , husband passed on, and about $75k sitting in a Money Market account. Still works, but is ready to retire at 69 due to physical issues and wants to invest the $75k now, and the DCP's later. An employee at work advised her to visit a CFP for a $600 dollar ...
by SeeMoe
Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:56 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)
Replies: 51
Views: 4891

Re: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)

Don't jump ship without thinking real hard about where you will land, sailor! Go to Reuters News Service and google the explosive article concerning the Johnson Family who Own Fidelity, and their $20+ billion dollar empire. Guess who helped finance that gravy train,...? SeeMoe.. :oops: This seems u...
by SeeMoe
Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:07 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)
Replies: 51
Views: 4891

Re: Moving from Vanguard to Fidelity (probably)

Don't jump ship without thinking real hard about where you will land, sailor! Go to Reuters News Service and google the explosive article concerning the Johnson Family who Own Fidelity, and their $20+ billion dollar empire. Guess who helped finance that gravy train,...?

SeeMoe.. :oops:
by SeeMoe
Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:04 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Tax Efficient Conservative Portfolio
Replies: 18
Views: 1781

Re: Tax Efficient Conservative Portfolio

68 years old, 15% Fed Tax Rate, 3% PA state tax rate. We are retired with a 40/60 AA. 100% bond funds in the T-IRA with a one x year RMD payout. Taxable acount is: tax Managed Capital Appreciation, Total International Stock Index, Exended Market Index, Limited/Intermediate/Pennsylvania tax exempt b...
by SeeMoe
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:05 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Which Vanguard Tax-Exempt fund?
Replies: 22
Views: 2406

Re: Which Vanguard Tax-Exempt fund?

For us it's the Limited/Intermediate/Pennsylvania tax exempt funds in our taxable account. Plus some total bond index and a Prime MM . Working out well for us in retirement...with 40/60 folio that needs lots of bonds.

SeeMoe.. :dollar
by SeeMoe
Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:59 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: About to retire and need to realize 5%/year to live on.
Replies: 71
Views: 7432

Re: About to retire and need to realize 5%/year to live on.

Better keep working until you can collect SS and Medicare. Look into The Vanguard Equity Income fund, total bond index, intermediate term and high yield corporate bond funds for income. Doubt if you will squeeze 5% out of them though. Looks like you have to spend down a little of the principle thoug...
by SeeMoe
Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:35 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Traveling to Japan
Replies: 37
Views: 3725

Re: Traveling to Japan

You would like Mount Fuji and the surrounding countryside and villages. I visited there in the 1950's when the exchange rate was 360 Yen to the Dollar. We traveled by train from Tokyo, and the train is the way to go. If you have time, then head up North. Never got sick eating the food or drinking th...
by SeeMoe
Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:50 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Asset Placement Turned Upside Down, Bonds in Taxable?
Replies: 51
Views: 4133

Re: Asset Placement Turned Upside Down, Bonds in Taxable?

Despite being in a 15% tax margin , I invest in laddered tax exempt Limited/Intermediate/Pa. Municipal bonds. But I also have a portion in the total bond index fund and PriME MM as well. Just enough taxable so as not to push us into a higher tax bracket...

SeeMe.. :D
by SeeMoe
Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:11 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Vanguard and bond recomendations
Replies: 18
Views: 1955

Re: Vanguard and bond recomendations

Not to derail OP's inquiry but, shouldn't majority of investors out there, invest in Vanguard's bond guideline of subtracting your age from 110 to determine amount of bond exposure regardless of market conditions? Do Bogleheads adhere to this recommendation or is it generally ignored? We do, and be...
by SeeMoe
Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:44 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?
Replies: 8
Views: 868

Re: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?

I expect to be in the 15% bracket. The municipal fund that made the most sense to me was Vanguard's High Yield Municipal Fund (VWAHX/VWALX), as I will not be impacted by alternative minimum tax, which keeps the riff-raff out. I will be splitting this equally with treasuries, which backtests as near...
by SeeMoe
Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:50 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?
Replies: 8
Views: 868

Re: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?

What's going on with your conversions to Roth IRAs? It also seems that you don't need such a conservative asset allocation, so you don't need as much in bond funds in a taxable account anyways. Oops, I didn't answer your question: So if you are doing Roth conversions, then sure have tax-exempt bond...
by SeeMoe
Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:48 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?
Replies: 8
Views: 868

Re: 15% Tax Margin and Munis in Taxable Account an Oxymoron?

What's going on with your conversions to Roth IRAs? It also seems that you don't need such a conservative asset allocation, so you don't need as much in bond funds in a taxable account anyways. Oops, I didn't answer your question: So if you are doing Roth conversions, then sure have tax-exempt bond...

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