Search found 71 matches

by 41fan
Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:27 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: How do you manage cash back rewards?
Replies: 26
Views: 2589

Re: How do you manage cash back rewards?

We have a 2% Fidelity cashback card and an Amazon 5% card. The Amazon card is my main one, but I usually only buy stuff on Amazon (5% back) or gas (gets 2% back towards Amazon purchases). My wife's main card is the Fidelity card which gives 2% back on every purchase. We try to put all non-Amazon spe...
by 41fan
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:36 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Induction Stoves?
Replies: 11
Views: 908

Re: Induction Stoves?

We're going to shopping for a house within the next 30 days due to relocation. I've had experience with electric burner stoves (hate them), gas stoves (prefer them), but never induction stoves. Are they any good? What are the pros and cons? If coming from gas is it a huge difference in how you cook...
by 41fan
Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:41 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Task management / organizing app
Replies: 52
Views: 2269

Re: Task management / organizing app

Check out the "Todoist" app. It is cloud based and multi platform. There is a free and a premium pay version. Are you using it , and if so, what is your experience with it ? I have just started using it a week or two ago. It has helped me jot down project tasks and sub-tasks, with due dates, etc. I...
by 41fan
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:32 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Task management / organizing app
Replies: 52
Views: 2269

Re: Task management / organizing app

Check out the "Todoist" app. It is cloud based and multi platform. There is a free and a premium pay version.
by 41fan
Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:56 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

We aren't considering gas for the oven, simply replacing the cooktop. Some developments since I last commented: I was leaning toward the induction electric cooktop, but have since found out that it requires a 40A minimum breaker and my current cooktop breaker is 30A. Not sure of the gauge wire that ...
by 41fan
Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:18 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

The fact that you don't have good ventilation screams go with induction to me. A $1000 induction cooktop will probably perform better than a cheapo $300 gas cooktop anyway. Do some research on induction cooktops, some of them only have 10 settings while others let you go in half steps for 20 (or ma...
by 41fan
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

Wow, thanks for all of the great comments and replies so far! I met with a plumber today and he quoted me $850 to run the gas line and connect to a gas cooktop. So between that and a $299 (on sale) gas cooktop from Lowe's, total installed gas cooktop cost would be ~$1200 after tax. Induction cooktop...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:42 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

Do you have cook-top and oven as separate units? That would be ideal for you, because gas is better for cook-top, and electric is better for oven. If you want to stick with electric, you might consider inductive cook-tops. I believe they are superior to regular electric and on par with gas. Yes, we...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:43 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

...$5k for a new cooktop, sink, and granite counters seems a bit optimistic. My granite was $5500, split approximately evenly between fabrication and the slab for ~35 square feet of counter. We went with a mid-upper grade slab but the lower grade slabs would have only knocked $1k off the price. My ...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:34 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

Look at induction for performance of gas with the convenience of using existing electric infrastructure. I am sure induction would work with my cast iron, but my wife doesn't like the weight of my skillets so she has her own stuff she cooks on which is much lighter. I don't know if its aluminum or ...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:15 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

I believe to a large extent this is a preference question. If looking for a new house, I would have a strong preference for a gas cooktop. This is because I like to cook, cook a great deal, and feel this gives me much better temperature adjustment and control. With an electric burner there is some ...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:09 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Re: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

Well we are kinda cashflowing our appliance upgrades from black to stainless. The cooktop is adjacent to the double oven, and the dryer is just on the other side of the oven in the laundry room, but it (oven) will be the last to get converted if ever. Furnace and water heater in attic are already on...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:50 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Do you buy phone outright or pay it off monthly...
Replies: 62
Views: 3814

Re: Do you buy phone outright or pay it off monthly...

I bought my last phone as part of my 2 year contract, but it's 6+ months out of contract now and I'm riding it as long as I can. I have a friend whose daughter lost her iPhone and they bought a preowned replacement phone online, I forgot which site but they only paid like $140 for the replacement an...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:47 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?
Replies: 72
Views: 4419

Getting a new cooktop, gas vs electric?

My wife received a small portion of her deceased grandfather's inheritance, and wants to replace countertops in the kitchen with granite. To do that, we discovered, we will also be updating sink/faucet and cooktop. Our current cooktop is a 15 year old electric coil cooktop, she first looked at a smo...
by 41fan
Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:05 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: What is your car's average cost ownership?
Replies: 70
Views: 5631

Re: What is your car's average cost ownership?

I don't know how to do the accounting, but in June 2015 I bought a 2006 Honda Ridgeline with 80k miles for $12,700. Since then I have paid $850 for a new timing belt/water pump as preventive maintenance, $940 for four new Michelin tires and an alignment, and normal fluid changes (some of which I do ...
by 41fan
Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:24 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Help with Guns in Estate [how to sell]
Replies: 56
Views: 5177

Re: Help with Guns in Estate [how to sell]

If you don't care about the price or what happens to the guns, see if there are any gun buyback programs going on in your area, where you walk in with the gun(s), hand it over to the police (or the government agency running the program), and walk out with cash money. I actually once happened across...
by 41fan
Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:37 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Help with Guns in Estate [how to sell]
Replies: 56
Views: 5177

Re: Help with Guns in Estate [how to sell]

I have instructed my wife that if I were to die suddenly, she is to consult with one of my trusted friends and fellow "gun nut" as to how to get the best prices for my modest collection. I know that he has used Gunbroker extensively, and he will work to get her the best market price for the items my...
by 41fan
Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:19 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

I just refurbished my Weber Genesis 3-burner yesterday: - Scraped off the crud from the grates - Scraped the fallen debris from the bottom, was probably a 1" thick layer - Cleaned burners with a wire brush - Installed new "flavorizer" bars, $39 from HD. The old ones had developed holes due to rust,...
by 41fan
Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:29 am
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

Don't use steel wool on it though! Use a non-scratch scour pad lightly! Bar Keeper's Friend will also help. Why no steel wool? I've used 0000 successfully to remove surface imperfections on stainless firearms before. I want to find a way to remove the slight rust and bought some stainless steel cle...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:30 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

Make sure to keep it clean. My E310 has been Pretty much junk. My parents have had Weber's for 10+ years but the quality has gone down hill. On my third set of flavorizers, second set of burners, second set of grill grates, and just had to buy a new propane line. It stays under a covered lanai, and...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:25 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

Have it preheating right now for grilling some burgers, hot dogs, and chicken breasts for dinner. The insides were pretty filthy when I bought it, but it's cleaned up pretty nicely so far.
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:17 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Need WIFI repeater or second router Advice
Replies: 45
Views: 3085

Re: Need WIFI repeater or second router Advice

I have since switched to the Google mesh network system with 2 pods, and it works flawlessly 100% of the time - the signal is so strong that I even get HD video signal in my garage now, whereas before I got zero bars, even with the repeater situated 2 walls away <15 feet away. I have looked at this...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:37 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

I second that. Plus, you've now got a Weber, which will last you many years, and have the satisfaction of re-using something perfectly good instead of landfill the old + buy new. :happy Yep, I have found that I get a special joy out of taking someone else's castoffs and cleaning them up, repairing ...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:31 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Re: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

Not crazy at all. I don't know why gifts have to be new. I asked for a backpack from Craigslist last year because new they were $250, and Craigslist they were $50. I felt bad having my wife waste the money. That's the way I felt. I buy used vehicles, why not a 2-year old grill? I saved 60% off of n...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:06 pm
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!
Replies: 26
Views: 2915

Happy Fathers Day - got me a used Weber grill!

I hope this story is kinda Boglehead-ish... Last weekend, I tried uncovering a "Charmglow" super duper whiz-bang stainless hand-me-down gas grill that my in-laws had given us a year or two ago and it was rusting to the point of falling apart. The heat shields were falling apart (one broke in two) an...
by 41fan
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.
Replies: 20
Views: 1896

Re: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.

Well for now I decided to buy two (didn't have enough in rewards to buy 3) shares of ITOT. Ha. This is my first foray into ETFs, I wanted to dip my toe into the ETF purchasing pool without risking too much money at once, and this is basically "free" money to try it with. Thanks everyone for the sugg...
by 41fan
Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:23 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.
Replies: 20
Views: 1896

Re: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. All of them sound better than just letting the money sit in cash management account until I accrued $2500 to invest. Since you're paying down debt anyway, why not use the rewards from the Fidelity card to pay down the debt? I use a different 2% cash back car...
by 41fan
Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:59 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.
Replies: 20
Views: 1896

Re: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.

Congratulations. I think that Fidelity Card is a lot better than Sky Miles. If you can't scrape up 2500 bucks for an index fund, where I put my credit card money then I would recommend trying to move a little money around, find something where you could get to the 2500 bucks. That Fidelity Total St...
by 41fan
Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:54 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.
Replies: 20
Views: 1896

Re: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.

I just invest mine in a mess of different no-fee ETFs, depending on what catches my interest that day. Basically a play-money account. I've invested in PFF, RING, FDRR and MUB, for example. Kinda fun to watch the numbers bob up and down (depending on your definition of fun I guess). http://etfdb.co...
by 41fan
Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:38 am
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.
Replies: 20
Views: 1896

Help me decide how my Fidelity 2% Cashback rewards should be invested plz.

Hi everyone, As my wife and I get started down the financial optimization path, we have opened a Fidelity credit card in her name to capture the 2% rewards placed into a Fidelity account. This account won't generate much, maybe $35-40 per month normally. However, we are using this card for most of o...
by 41fan
Thu May 04, 2017 2:58 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Capital One 360 $200 bonus (and now $300 checking bonus)
Replies: 217
Views: 26942

Re: Capital One 360 $200 bonus

How long are people waiting for their bonus? Chase seems to be much faster. April 21: Funded account with $20 April 25: P2P Deposit of $10K April 27: Withdrawal of $10K Still waiting on the $200 bonus as of 5/4 Edit I see someone else already got their bonus and had opened it after me. Called capit...
by 41fan
Wed May 03, 2017 3:05 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Capital One 360 $200 bonus (and now $300 checking bonus)
Replies: 217
Views: 26942

Re: Capital One 360 $200 bonus

I just opened a Capital One 360 account and am sending $10k over from an old Deutsche Bank money market account that had been earning about 0.05% while costing about 0.35% in e/r. Thanks to the OP for bringing this offer to my attention. So hopefully this is another step, with the 1% interest rate ...
by 41fan
Wed May 03, 2017 1:51 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Question about withdrawing Roth contributions
Replies: 7
Views: 424

Re: Question about withdrawing Roth contributions

Vanguard doesn't know--how would they? It's up to you. Did you always contribute the max to your Roth? If so, you could use the contributions limits for the years you contributed to figure it out. Kevin My Roth was started by my father for me, when I was in college and working part-time. I was not ...
by 41fan
Wed May 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Question about withdrawing Roth contributions
Replies: 7
Views: 424

Question about withdrawing Roth contributions

I have a Roth IRA that was started 20 years ago, and contributed to for a few years. Then it was left untouched until a year ago, when we started making contributions to it again. Earlier this year, when I found this site, I realized what a bad fund it was in, and had the Roth transferred from Victo...
by 41fan
Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:31 pm
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: New to all of this, need a consult/reassurance please.
Replies: 30
Views: 2030

Re: New to all of this, need a consult/reassurance please.

OK, a few months have passed, and I wanted to give everyone who participated in this thread a follow-up report. My Roth IRA and both of my previous 401(k) accounts have all been transferred to Vanguard. My wife's Roth IRA has been transferred to Schwab (for a little diversification, and also for the...
by 41fan
Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Capital One 360 $200 bonus (and now $300 checking bonus)
Replies: 217
Views: 26942

Re: Capital One 360 $200 bonus

Definitely sounds like a good move. We opened 2 accounts, bonus transferred in quickly, funds were available within a few days. Closed both accounts and transferred the full balances back to Ally all in one motion. Easy-peasy $400. Good to hear that these bonuses come easily and transferring out is...
by 41fan
Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:17 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Capital One 360 $200 bonus (and now $300 checking bonus)
Replies: 217
Views: 26942

Re: Capital One 360 $200 bonus

I just opened a Capital One 360 account and am sending $10k over from an old Deutsche Bank money market account that had been earning about 0.05% while costing about 0.35% in e/r. Thanks to the OP for bringing this offer to my attention. So hopefully this is another step, with the 1% interest rate i...
by 41fan
Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:57 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Turbo Tax self employed free or purchase offers???
Replies: 4
Views: 521

Re: Turbo Tax self employed free or purchase offers???

You can start a return for free online - you don't pay until you file. So you can run scenarios to your hearts content. This. I started my taxes this year using TaxAct online and didn't like the resulting tax bill (had a lot of life changes last year). So I tried TurboTax online (got a slightly dif...
by 41fan
Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:06 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Kindle Specials on Four Pillars and If You Can
Replies: 22
Views: 3546

Re: Kindle Specials on Four Pillars and If You Can

Thank you sir, from a new Boglehead.

I have read the If You Can PDF, and made my wife read it too, but I went ahead and bought the Kindle version as well.

I will look forward to buying the Four Pillars on April 7 as well.

:sharebeer
by 41fan
Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:19 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!
Replies: 67
Views: 5611

Re: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!

Update from the OP: Well I finally called Victory Funds today and asked them what, specifically, I needed to do to transfer my Roth IRA to another custodian. The lady on the phone said they would need to receive transfer papers from the other custodian. Me: "Transfer papers from the other cust...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:32 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?
Replies: 21
Views: 2346

Re: Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?

Seems like I read somewhere that it is important not to co-mingle "rolled over" funds with new IRA contributions, maybe in case I ever wanted to roll the Rollover IRA back into a new 401(k)? Is that correct? If so, why? Wouldn't my new contributions become "tax-deferred" the sam...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:10 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?
Replies: 21
Views: 2346

Re: Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?

I found this on Vanguard's website: Once I roll over my retirement plan assets into a Vanguard IRA, can I make additional contributions to my account? Yes, you can make contributions to your IRA, subject to the IRS annual contribution limits ($5,500 for the 2016 and 2017 tax years, $6,500 if you're ...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:30 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?
Replies: 21
Views: 2346

Is there any difference between a Rollover IRA and a Traditional IRA?

I had two 401(k)s that I recently rolled over into a single IRA at Vanguard. In reading these boards, I have picked up on snippets of advice here and there, basically stating "You won't want to make additional contributions to the rollover IRA", or "keep the rollover IRA separate from...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Cars - possible recession indicator?
Replies: 21
Views: 3619

Re: Cars - possible recession indicator?

I noticed this recently as well. There is a Nissan manufacturing plant about 45 minutes from my town, and this past weekend I noticed a fenced industrial lot with hundreds of new Nissans on it. This lot is across from my son's school, so I pass by it fairly frequently and there hadn't been all of th...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:54 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?
Replies: 9
Views: 1304

Re: Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?

avalpert wrote:It is counted towards your contribution limit - and you have to have other earned income to qualify for the contribution.


No worries there, I'm not anywhere near being able to retire yet. :(
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:49 pm
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?
Replies: 9
Views: 1304

Re: Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?

You have to remember -- money is fungible. It might help to separate in your mind the cash back reward from the Roth IRA contribution. So... Credit card rewards are non-taxable. CC rewards are also "unearned" income, thus not (in and of themselves) qualifying for a Roth IRA contribution -...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:17 pm
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!
Replies: 67
Views: 5611

Re: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!

..... in addition to the cheaper e/r on the Total Market Index fund. Don't let this be part of your decision. The difference is probably a few cups of fancy coffee a year. That wouldn't be the deciding factor, but the $100 bonus that Schwab has for my portfolio size would be nice. Fidelity doesn't ...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:56 am
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?
Replies: 9
Views: 1304

Is a Fidelity VISA 2% cashback contribution to a Roth IRA tax-free?

Hey everyone, I am considering transferring my Roth IRA to Fidelity, in conjunction with opening a Fidelity 2% rewards Visa card. If I get a 2% cashback bonus applied to my Roth IRA, when (if ever) is the tax paid on that cashback bonus? I just did my taxes so IRA contributions and taxes are heavy o...
by 41fan
Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:31 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!
Replies: 67
Views: 5611

Re: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!

I am kind of rethinking rolling my Roth (~$14k) to Vanguard given the Medallion signature business. I am now thinking I'll roll it somewhere else to leverage a bonus, if the other places can make a transfer happen without the Medallion BS. If I roll this Roth to Schwab, it looks like I would be elig...
by 41fan
Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:30 am
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!
Replies: 67
Views: 5611

Re: Trying to transfer a Roth IRA and this Medallion Signature requirement is driving me nuts!

Let us know how it works out. Well I mailed off my transfer paperwork to Vanguard on 3/20 without a Medallion signature, as suggested above. This morning, I got a Vanguard "can we help you?" email, so I called and asked about the status of my transfer. The Vanguard guy said that the other...