Wiki Chatroom

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What is this page?

This page is for general wiki discussion. If you have ideas for improving the wiki or thoughts about its content or questions and are not sure where else to put them or how to implement them, this is a place to start. Jot them down here and someone will (hopefully) address them. Sewall 19:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Driving folks to the wiki

Frequent readers of the Boglehead forum will have noticed the same questions arise again and again, some of which are answered on the wiki. How can we get folks to find answers on the wiki instead of re-asking questions on the forum? One idea is to have a search box on the forum that searches the wiki. To the extent that folks do searches before posting questions, they may find the wiki answer first, reducing forum volume and saving time and effort. Sewall 19:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


A very good idea,Sewall. We will have to run it by Alex to see if it can be easily implemented, as an addition to a forum link to the wiki. Blbarnitz 04:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Update on a PiperWarrior Request

Meanwhile, we have yet to receive any feedback from a PiperWarrior request (to which I heartily agree} for the following:
Could somebody install what's called ParserFunctions extension? This allows a wiki page to use advanced templates that use #if and #switch statements. One such template can be found at the bottom of Sun. You can see "The Solar System" there. The installation seems fairly simple and is described here. The installation involves downloading five files in one directory and adding one line to LocalSettings.php.

This would allow us to tidy up the navigation boxes at the bottom of most wiki pages. Blbarnitz 04:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Can we change the sidebar navigation links?

Some of your navigation sidebar links seem to be misguided. I'd like to suggest the following:

  • Main Page - This should go to the Bogleheads.org main page. Instead, it brings me back to the Wiki main page.
    • Suggestion - Update the URL to http://www.bogleheads.org like this: Main Page
  • Add a Wiki Main page
    • Suggestion - Wiki Main Page with http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php like this: Wiki Main Page
  • Current Events - no changes
  • Recent Changes - no changes
  • Random Page - no changes
  • The Bogleheads Index - An index should go to a reference of topics. Instead, it goes to the forum.
    • Suggestion - Change the title to Wiki Index and update the URL to the Special:Categories page The Wiki Index
  • Add a blank line to delineate help from the above (easier to find)
  • Help - It's a Wiki help, not a forum help. Although this is the Wiki site, readers may be confused on the purpose here.
    • Suggestion - Change the title to Wiki Help

As for the logo at the top of the page. Myself and others have requested that this logo (and the one in the forum) redirect the URL to the http://www.bogleheads.org main page instead of the Wiki or forum main pages. It makes sense to do it this way - it's a standard interface to get back at root level from anywhere in the site. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31830

My first Wiki edit. (Blbarnitz: there was a missing '/' in your ending </blockquote> which indented my post. I fixed it.) --LadyGeek 03:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The first point we have to make is that none of the wiki editors have the capability of editing the left navigation bar. This can only be done by Alex, who, at present, has a new baby keeping him occupied. The main change we have requested is for the wiki to have a direct link on the forum, since:
  1. Many forum members access the forum directly and do not use the diehards. org site.(For a history of the site see The Bogleheads.
  2. We continue to hope that forum members will frequently use the wiki, linking wiki pages into responses to questions and contributing to the wiki when appropriate. This is more easily done if one can link to the wiki from the forum.

Many of your suggestions have merit and might be addressed when Alex next updates the forum platform. By the way, the wiki is barely out of infancy, as Ken Schwartz' account of the happenstance that led to the wiki's creation. - Blbarnitz 08:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't care for the bogleheads.org page, as it negates some of the best features of the forum software. However, LadyGeek's suggestion about linking to it is a good one. It does seem to serve as a good initiation point or linking portal for both the forum and the wiki. And without it as a sort of 'home base', the forum and the wiki don't seem to have much of a connection at all. So, if there is a consensus about improving the navigation links here at the wiki, let me know; I'll be glad to change them. We can actually change them without any need for platform tweaking by Alex. The navigation links are actually just another wiki page; you've just got to know the deep, dark, ancient secret of how to change them ;) --CyberBob 19:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, I felt like tweaking a bit, so hopefully I improved the sidebar. Based mainly on LadyGeek's suggestions, I split it into three sections, like so:
  • Navigation
Main wiki page
Current events
Recent changes
Random page
Wiki categories
  • Support
Wiki help
Bogleheads FAQ
  • Sites
Bogleheads.org
Bogleheads forum
I didn't change the upper-left logo link. LadyGeek's suggestion to make it go to a common root here and on the forum seems like a good way to be roll the three sites into one. However, while it's true that clicking on the main page logo is a standard way to get back to the root level anywhere on a site, doesn't it seem like it may be counter-intuitive and confusing to many people if it brings you back to a root level on what seems to be a completely different website? That's what I was thinking and why I added the 'sites' section to the sidebar instead. Thoughts? --CyberBob 20:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

--- Thank you. That's a huge improvement. I tested the links, all OK. Some comments:

  • Wiki categories

I try to view things from the perspective of someone who's not familiar with the terminology. Category is specific to the Wiki namespace. A normal user wouldn't know that. I didn't, until I read the help files. I used the term "Wiki Index" because the category page is the "index" to the Wiki "book". That's a more common terminology. Everything else happens behind the scenes, where the Wiki editors reside.

  • Upper left logo

There are 3 separate sites? Anything with the same domain (bogleheads.org) and the same logos is one site to me. The fact that there are at least 3 servers should be transparent to the user. Now I understand why the Wiki preferences didn't have my email address, but the forum does.

My perspective - I had no idea on the separation, it's all one site to me. I truly thought that something was broken when I couldn't find my way back to root level from the forum page (hence the thread in the admin forum to fix it). I understand that there is a rich history of why this came to be. But, moving forward, you need to attract traffic to your web site (and keep 'em coming) by making it easy to use. The expected behavior is to navigate to root level from anywhere and the logo is the expected place to do it.

LadyGeek 22:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Newbie Questions

  • I'm running gun-shy to touch anything because I never worked a community project before. Is editing a page as simple as just go ahead and do it (as opposed to asking the page owner's permission)? I assume it would be good practice to document what you did in the discussion page.
  • Can a page revert to a previous version if I make a mistake? Do I need an admin for this? I understand that page differences and changes are tracked. I don't know how hard it is to revert.
  • Is the Talk page the same as the Discussion page? I have a User:Talk page (FYI - just updated), but there are only Topic:Discussion pages.
  • I see that you have a chore called "Wikifying the Reference Library". Do you still want it done? Given my background, that might be a good place to start. I'll keep the status up-to-date. Questions will be posted in the forum. I also wanted to add a few definitions to the Glossary. Hope I didn't over-burden myself.

LadyGeek 22:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

  • You can edit any page you desire. Minor edits (typos, word choices, links etc.} usually do not require any comments (other than a brief note in the edit box). A note in the discussion page might be prudent if the edit is substantial, especially if there is a change in meaning.
  • You can always revert a page back to a prior version. The page's history tab will provide all the edits made to the page. You can preview an edited page before saving it, and if you have not saved your edits on a page you can hit the cancel button to return to the original page.
  • Talk and discussion pages are analoguous. Discussion pages are the medium for discussing wiki article pages.
  • We have wikified most of the Reference Library Pages; we have tackled most of the easy transcriptions. Feel free to continue.

-Blbarnitz 00:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't be gun-shy Ladygeek, be bold! Wikis are designed to be communal efforts and develop much faster when everybody helps to fix problems, correct grammar, add facts, make sure the wording is accurate, etc. So go ahead and add to, revise, and edit articles - the wiki format invites you to do it! And don't worry about ownership of pages, there isn't any; it's a communal thing. Even pages that I have written aren't perfect (hard to believe, I know), so edit away! Just do what seems sensible, it will usually be right, and if it's not right, don't worry. Even the worst mistakes are easy to correct: older versions of a page remain in the revision history and can be restored. One of the great things about a wiki is that every page can be changed and every page can also be changed back.

You can comment on the discussion (a.k.a. 'talk' pages) too, every article has one. It may be easier to see that something is not right, than to know exactly how to fixe it, so sometimes prior discussion may be warranted; but not usually. Commenting that an article is not correct can be the first step to getting it fixed. However, problems are more certain to be fixed, and will probably be fixed faster, if you are bold enough to just do it yourself.

There's no need to edit recklessly, of course, but if you just do what seems sensible and for the common good, it's probably going to turn out fine. And in the odd case where it doesn't, any changes you make that turn out badly can be reverted. But you can also just use the 'preview' option before committing to any change to a page.

And if you're not sure where to start, perhaps something on the Cleanup page may strike your fancy.

--CyberBob 16:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Templates vs. Template Messages vs. Navigation Templates

I'm working on some new templates for the Main Page, but it's very confusing on the difference between what's called a Template and a Navigation Template. It appears that the Navigation Template link really points to Category:Template, where the actual Navigation Templates are pages in this category. Further, the page called Templates looks like a generic mix of topics. Is it OK to:

  • Put the Navigation Templates into a category called Templates:Navbox (navigational) (that's what Wikipedia calls them)
  • The page Templates:Templates contains a mix of Bogleheads' books and flags. Should this be separated into distinct templates, note that some links will be broken if not done correctly? Or, just note at the top of the category page that Templates has the various Bogleheads' templates.
  • I added the templates to the (new) Development category, since editing is development. I also kept it under Administration since it's frequently accessed.

LadyGeek 04:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Templates, Template Messages, and Navigation Templates are essentially all the same as they are all templates. A template is simply something pre-defined that can be used repeatedly by just calling it by name on a page, with it's name between double-braces. Templates can be simple, such as in the template messages where they simply display something, or they can be more complex such as in the book-box template, where, when calling it, you also pass it some information to post. And they can even get more complicated with the usage of variables and if/then/else type syntax. But essentially they are all the same, a page that has a name in the format template:whatever.
The way they are categorized right now sort of just happened as they were created. The Template Messages are all together on one page because they are all the same and are just informative, so having them all on one page seemingly made it easy for people to see what messages where available. The more generic Templates page was simply created to show what slightly more complex templates did (i.e. those that did more than display a message and needed input past just calling them). But again, they are displayed on a single page just to showcase what they do all in one place. The actual templates all have their own separate Template:whatever page. If you think their categorization could be clarified, go for it. But in answer to your second question about separation into distinct templates, they already are. For example, the Quote Box template is demonstrated on the Templates page, but the code actually exists on the Template:Quote page. But ahhh, I think I see what you may have noticed, that the page with the actual code isn't categorized. Those pages could/should be categorized so that they show up on the page. Don't forget includeonly. --CyberBob 15:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I went according to MediaWiki structure and created a Templates/Navigation Templates sub-category. No problem to remember includeonly. However, I found a few templates that forgot /includeonly.LadyGeek 21:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Main Page Development

I've got a working(!) main page portal prototype up and running. Head over to the Development area and try out Portal:Main_Page_Development. Also in the is a Wiki Advanced Help. I tried to match the page color to the Bogleheads logo, while staying within the "Web-Safe" colors.

To start, I included the Welcome message and Current Events. This was the hardest step so far, I spent a few hours debugging a stray </div> tag. Haven't had that much fun since working in C.

I modified Current Events to allow the main page to transclude a subset of information for display inside the portal box. Next steps, arranging the boxes and figuring out how to do what the readers actually wanted in the first place (search, categories, etc.).

I designed the pages and templates for ease of editing and clarity. Edit the main page and view the comments. Just follow the links below the editing area. If you want to experiment with your own design, you only need to copy the main page - the headers, footers, and templates will still work. You will need a new header page if you want to change the box color (color could be made a parameter...). LadyGeek 21:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Equation Formats?

I've got a few equations in Investment Planning. Was wondering if there was a prefered style of format (template?) for equations. I looked around and didn't see one. If none exist I'm open to suggestions. This isn't critical but may signal a need. Sewall 01:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki has a built-in markup language to display formulas. If you're not comfortable with cryptic coding techniques, it might be difficult to figure out. There's an extension to make things easier, but I don't think it's installed. In order to use the TeX codes as shown, you need to create the math template. I did a quick in-line test and it seems to work. I can help you with the equations.
I'm keeping a cheat sheet of helpful references and just added the math formula. LadyGeek 03:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Investment Planning

While I'm here I'll make a comment about what I'm doing with the Investment Planning page. It seemed like there was a need for a page that stepped through some very basic planning ideas. The Investment Planning page does that (or will when I'm through). It links to other pages as needed, some of which aren't created yet. I hope to finish the first full draft by the end of the first week of March. Then I would be delighted for other folks to expand and improve it. I'll make an announcement in Bogleheads wiki forum when I've completed the draft. After the wiki editors take some whacks I figured I'd announce it to the full Boglehead forum. Sewall 01:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I retract much of what I wrote above. I will not be working on the Investment Planning page. I'll leave it for others to complete. Sewall 19:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
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