Bogleheads

[CountryBoy]

What do people think is the best way to protect from lightning?

My electrician says that:

-my grounding of my electricity lines to our well is good

-that if lightning decides to strike fully there is nothing I can do

-that he has a 'surge arrestor' on his box at home

The folks at Wikipedia have lots to say on the topic at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod

We live in Northern Westchester, one hour north of NYC. There is frequent hurricanes and some tornados.

What do you folks suggest?

cb

[stratton]

What does your local building code say?

That's the one that counts.

Paul
_________________
...and Buffy staked Edward. The end.

[Rob5TCP]

Ligthing rods seems to be the best option.

This article goes into some basics.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning7.htm

BTW - how often does Northern Westchester get hit with a hurricane. I can't remember more than a handful over many decades.

[rwwoods]

1) Install good surge strips on your electronic devices. Strips should have ports for cable for your TV and cable and phone ports for your PC. The Cyberpower 1080 is a good unit.
2) If you affort it take the next step by adding a whole house surge protector on your electrical mains. You may be able to lease one from your electrical company, but the one you install on the mains box is better. The Intermatic IG3240RC is a good unit. Ensure the cable and phone entry boxes have ground wires connected to the electrical grounding rod.
3) If you can afford it take the next step by adding a lighting protection system installed by a UL recognized installer. An installer will do all of the above steps for you or verify that you have the right equipment already properly installed.
http://www.lightning.org/defau....width=995#
http://www.lightningsafetyalliance.com/
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/p....rotection/
http://www.ulpa.org/index2.htm
_________________
"I'm not so much concerned about the return on my money as the return of my money" - Will Rogers

[LadyGeek]

[EmergDoc]

This seems to work well in the Tetons:

http://www.tetonat.com/2010/07..../#comments
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1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy
4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

[CountryBoy]

My thanks to rwwoods, LadyGeek, et. al. for the advice. It is a scary thing to see how very ignorant I have been on this topic.

Most appreciated.

country boy

[livesoft]

[555]

In the context of the boggleheads forum: incognito whole life insurance salesmen.

[rcasement]

I was professionally trained on power and grounding, and can tell you that many different sources of information are needed for anyone to protect your home, or business. Type of terrain, building material, type of soil, and many many other factors to each specific structure. The number of buildings is important, in that multiple buildings expose you to ground potential differences, if you have cabling between them. I've seen roofs with holes blow through them by lightning. On many occasions, I recommended a customer hire an Electrical engineer that specializes in building grounds. In Kansas we have a lot of limestone close to the surface of the ground and this effects the usefulness of ground rods. At times ground grids have to be installed and all utilities tied in at single common point of ground. In homes, electrical boxes, and phone network interfaces should be together on the outside of the home with a single point common ground. This in not the case many times, and cable and phone companies are very bad at using small three foot ground rods with in 6 inches of the home structure. This causes a reduced ground field of 180 degrees, and will cause spikes in voltage to find it's way through your home and it's electrical system to the good ground the power company has. This is what burns up many appliances.
Good luck in your quest.
_________________
“The past does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

[rcasement]

[rcasement]

[westom]

[quote="CountryBoy"]My thanks to rwwoods, LadyGeek, et. al. for the advice. It is a scary thing to see how very ignorant I have been on this topic.[/quote]
Appreciate why protection works and why so many protectors are only scams. Surges are energy that seeks earth ground. Either that energy dissipates outside the house (ie 'whole house' protector). Or that energy hunts for earth, destructively, inside the house. You make the choice. Energy dissipates harmlessly outside. Or energy hunts destructively inside. No unearthed protector averts the hunt.

Any protector that would magically make energy disappear or would somehow block a surge is a scam. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Call it a surge protector. Sell it for $25 or $150. It is only a profit center. Does no effective protection. Does not even claim to do protection in its numeric specs. And gets recommended by so many only because it is called a surge protector or because it has a massive profit (high price).

No protector does protection. Repeated because the concept it so difficult to understand once the advertising has so many entrenched in myths. No protector does protection. Either the protector makes a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. Or it does nothing. No plug-in protector had that always required and dedicated wire to connect to earth. Only one 'whole house' protector does protection - connects short to earth.

The lies are pervasive. For example, that HowStuffWorks citation is chock full of lies followed by myths. The number of errors just on the first page are so numerous as to fill long posts. HowStuffWorks is why completely ineffective power strip protectors get promoted. Why its profit margins are so massive.

The very first question every informed consumer asks, "Where does energy dissipate?" How do hundreds of joules (near-zero) inside a power strip absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? How does that silly little 2 centimeter part stop what three miles of sky could not? How does that protector do protection when its numeric specifications will not claim any protection?

So many know it must do protection because it is called a surge protector. An effective protector does no protection. Instead, an effective protector diverts. Connects that energy short (low impedance) to the only thing that does protection - single point earth ground.

[CountryBoy]

I certainly am reading what people are writing and as well spoke with my Town's electric code supervisor. He said that code required a grounding to the well casing but that a surge protector on the power panel in our house should help.

Actually at the end of the conversation he asked me what ideas I had for the the solution. Oh, and he doesn't like and is unable to use computers so if I want to contact him I need to call. (We are a pretty rural town in northern Westchester, seriously )

[westom]

[quote="CountryBoy"] I certainly am reading what people are writing and as well spoke with my Town's electric code supervisor. He said that code required a grounding to the well casing but that a surge protector on the power panel in our house should help. [/quote]
Code only addresses human safety. Surge protection means exceeding code for transistor safety.

For example, a ground wire (a bare, solid copper quarter inch wire) may go up over the foundation and down to earth. That meets code for human safety. And compromises earthing for surge protection. To exceed for - for surge protection - that wire better goes through the foundation and down to the dedicated earthing electrode. Eliminates sharp wire bends. Separated from other non-ground wires. Significantly shorter which means lower impedance.

Code defines earthing for human safety. Surge protection means earth ground must exceed code. For example, all incoming utility wires inside every cable connect short ('less than 10 feet') to that single point ground before entering the building.

Did you know all telephone lines already have a 'whole house' protector earthed for free? That is required by code. And that is even better surge protection for transistors IF your earthing exceeds code requirements.

[CountryBoy]

rnwoods URLs were most helpful:

among them the UL listing that had:

[westom]

[quote="CountryBoy"]Sounds pretty detailed.[/quote]
You are confusing lightning protection for a building (lightning rods) with lightning protection for appliances.

A lightning rod above the building connect lightning to earth on a path that does not pass through the building. That is what the companies inspector inspects.

Lightning to AC power wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to every appliance (powered on or off) in the house. That is what the electrician discussed with a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

In both cases, the rod and protector are only as effective as the earth ground they connect to. In both cases, similar solutions to protect completely different things.

[Dagwood]

[Watty]

[rwwoods]

Lightning does not have to hit your house to cause damage. It is more likely that you will suffer electrical damage due to a strike within a couple hundred feet of your home. Given the lighting strike density (strikes per sq kilometer per year) where I live, I calculated that I have a 10% chance over each 10 year period of having electrical damage.
http://www.lightningsafety.com....htning.pdf
_________________
"I'm not so much concerned about the return on my money as the return of my money" - Will Rogers

[westom]

[quote="rwwoods"]Lightning does not have to hit your house to cause damage. It is more likely that you will suffer electrical damage due to a strike within a couple hundred feet of your home. [/quote] Lightning struck the building lightning rod. A PC was only four feet away from that entire lightning bolt connected to earth. The PC did not even blink. Did not crash. Worked completely normally.

Damage from nearby strikes is a popular urban myth. If EM fields did damage then every car radio in the parking lot, every cell phone, and every nearby wrist watch would be destroyed. None damaged because those fields are so easily made irrelevant.

A nearby lightning strike induced maybe thousands of volts on a long wire antenna. And so the antenna lead was connected to an NE-2 neon glow lamp. That milliamp lamp that often makes wall switches glow at night. The NE-2 glow lamp conducting milliamps reduced that thousands of volts to tens. That is how easily nearby fields are made irrelevant. The NE-2 bulb conducted single digit milliamps reduced the EM field effect to nearly zero. To non-destructive levels.

Nearby EM fields are destructive when myths see those thousands of volts. And then forget how milliamps reduce those thousand of volts to near zero.

Damage is always a direct strike. Sometimes that direct strike current path is not obvious. But to have damage, a serious current must pass into and simultaneously out of the appliance. If both paths do not exist from a direct strike, then no damage results. And I repeat. Sometimes that direct strike current path is not obvious.

[Dan Moroboshi]

I don't have anything useful to add to this thread.

I love it, though, and others like it, in which people demonstrate a depth of knowledge in subject matters of which I am totally ignorant. It reminds me of the sheer scope of technology that our civilization has attained, and how difficult it would be to reconstitute it if some catastrophe were to occur in which much of that knowledge were lost.

I also enjoy comments by Wall Street titans that a financial apocalypse is coming, but that they have prepared well-defended Fortresses of Solitude in which they will survive the "Atlas Shrugged"-style end of the world as we know it, and emerge as the rightful masters of the shattered earth.

http://www.businessinsider.com....ers-2010-1

I hope those guys remembered to stock a few technical manuals along with their MREs, diesel, and ammo. Maybe a few "surge protectors" too, so they can continue to trade on a secure Internet connection from their bunkers.

[CountryBoy]

[CountryBoy]

There have been comments to the effect that this Westchester area does not get severe weather events. The meteorological events of the last 10 years suggest something far different.

For those not familiar with just one of many examples, feel free to jump to info on this 1992 weather event

[westom]

[quote="Dan Moroboshi"] I also enjoy comments by Wall Street titans that a financial apocalypse is coming, but that they have prepared well-defended Fortresses of Solitude in which they will survive the "Atlas Shrugged"-style end of the world as we know it, and emerge as the rightful masters of the shattered earth.[/quote]

On 1929 Wall Street, they said lightning never strikes twice.

[Imperabo]

[rwwoods]

westom, its not the EM fields that cause the damage - its the surge voltage on the mains. A close strike can cause the potential between the mains and the earth ground to rise to several thousand volts. Thats why you need a whole house surge protector and surge strips. Our fire chief has reported that the majority of lightning damage in our area has been caused by surge and not fire caused by direct strikes. We have several such occurances in our area each year.
_________________
"I'm not so much concerned about the return on my money as the return of my money" - Will Rogers

[CountryBoy]

Then of course 7 years later in 1999 there was Hurricane Floyd in NY.

[LadyGeek]

I felt bad about giving a rather harshly worded response on July 29 and then immediately going on vacation (returned Aug 11). However, when life safety is involved, I'll err on the side of caution.

I'm happy to find that the information was helpful and that there are other electrical experts in the forum. Great discussions.

As for surge protectors, I'm with westom. I've spent many hours trying to find a decent surge protector. They're all garbage unless you go with one of the more reputable commercial companies. You need to understand the limitations and differences between Transzorbs, MOVs, zener diodes, and other components. All dependent on a decent grounding system.

I think about grounding every time I go on vacation. Specifically, how attractive my carbon fishing rod is to a lightning strike when I'm out on the boat in open water. At the first hint of a thunderstorm, we head back to the cabin at full speed. (I can read weather signs rather well and even then there are still a few surprises.)

I've seen some impressive thunderstorms roll through the Catskills and Adirondack mountains (CountryBoy's neck of the woods). It looks really cool at night. However, no tornadoes.
_________________
Some say the glass half-full. Others say the glass is half-empty. To an engineer, it’s twice as big as it needs to be. Link to Wiki

[mainiac]

My mother's house was hit by lightning the summer that my husband and I were staying with her.

EVERY single electrical appliance in the house was ruined (stereo, microwave, radios, food processor, coffee pot, etc) EXCEPT her computer because it was plugged into a fancy surge protector. I don't recall the brand, but it was quite pricey. The company replaced the protector (which gave its life for the computer) free of charge.

My husband was delighted because the insurance company paid for a whole new stereo system for him!

Luckily, no one was home at the time and no other damage was done.

[westom]

[quote="mainiac"] EVERY single electrical appliance in the house was ruined (stereo, microwave, radios, food processor, coffee pot, etc) EXCEPT her computer because it was plugged into a fancy surge protector. [/quote]

Computers are required even by Intel ATX specs to be more robust. Therefore a surge that damaged those other items was either too small to also harm a computer. Or other appliances acted as protection for the computer.

So the washing machine was damaged? Every digital clock and clock radio? All dimmer switches destroyed? Furnace and air conditioner failed? All smoke detectors destroyed? Or were these protected by invisible protectors? According to your logic, only things that survived were protected by a protector. So what protected every GFCI in bathroom and kitchen? What protected the dishwasher and refrigerator? Invisible protectors? If not, the protector made no difference. If not, your logic simply ignored relevant data - those other undamaged appliances. People who recommend plug-in protector routinely make that mistakes. To claim the protector did anything, then every one of those above appliances must be destroyed.

Described is what happens with or without plug-in protectors. And demonstrated is what happens when - well every new style fluorescent light bulb must have failed.

Some things are damaged? Others are not? A surge chooses which appliances to obtain earth ground through regardless of protectors existing or not. OR invisible protectors must exist.

Either surge energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or appliances are damaged regardless of power strip protectors. That is obvious to the few here who have designed these things.

[Bernd]

My house was built in 1978, they must have used all applicable codes in respect to lightning protection. I have lived there since 1987, never noticed a lightning strike. My house has no metal lightning rod as I recall from houses in Germany.

But there are tall trees around my 2-story house. This spring an arborist told me after I requested that he cut back a maple next to my house, that it looks like lightning had hit it and the tree would recuperate on itself.

[CountryBoy]

Many thanks for people's continued commentary on the topic.

I never cease to be amazed that if an individual comes to this Forum with an honest question and in ignorance, that there are people who will take time to address the issue thoughtfully and knowledgeably. So thank you once again.

Some items that may be pertinent to this discussion.

-About 3 years ago, my well motor was struck by lightning and had to be replaced.

-My computer has an APC backup system that I bought:
http://www.apc.com/resource/in....ku=bk350ei
For the last 20 years, this has performed as anticipated.

Also, recent correspondence with people that provide lightning protection in my area includes the following information exchange:

[rcasement]

Country boy, once again, the best thing anyone can do to protect life and home from lightning is to make sure your grounding systems is the best it can be. It is the ground that carries away the strike if one should happen.
Without this path to ground, the strike goes throughout the structure looking for ground, and this is what does the damage. You want everything well connected to a single point ground on your electrical systems. GROUND, GROUND, GROUND, the 3 G's of lightning protection.
_________________
“The past does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

[rcasement]

Think about this: How do you ground an airplane, or submarine?
_________________
“The past does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

[CountryBoy]

rcasement

Thank you.

I sense there is a vast science out there as to the hows and wherefors of proper grounding technologies that I need to learn......

[crefwatch]

Interesting sidelight: When Verizon came to add a FIOS fiber drop to our house, the pleasant and well-trained mechanic told me that he was not permitted to connect the FIOS electronics box to anything except an earth ground. It seems that the cable company has been accusing Verizon (... pity the poor, virtuous utility run by an overpaid CEO who started as a cable splicer ... but I digress ...) of creating hazardous situations when they install their competition to the franchised cable company.

I left him doing the outside work to go to the local electric shop, bought a 10' ground rod, pounded it in, ran a #6 lead inside, and gave him a terminal block to connect to. Problem solved.

On the other hand, when I added an antenna to my home because I won't pay monthly for cable, I also put in a 10' rod for that. But I don't worry about getting qualified certification of the ground quality because I know the #10 aluminum grounding conductor I ran from the roof will melt long before it protects my home. I just tried to keep the antenna lower than many of the structures and trees (80', typically) in the immediate area.

I'm not saying that's a substitute for professional services. I'm just reporting a halfway measure.

Tim

[westom]

[quote="crefwatch"] I also put in a 10' rod for that. But I don't worry about getting qualified certification of the ground quality because I know the #10 aluminum grounding conductor I ran from the roof will melt long before it protects my home.[/quote]

All that grounding is required first for human safety. In one home, that ground was missing. A neutral wire failed inside a street transformer. So the house used gas lines as an electrical conductor - until a meter gasket failed and the house exploded. Currents conducted on a gas line because earthing was not installed.

That 10 AWG wire obvious would not melt. You must first learn facts and numbers. For example, an 18 AWG (lamp cord wire) for 10 amps will conduct 60 amps continuously. And as much as up to 60,000 amps of lightning. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps.

However a 10 AWG wire from the antenna is not sufficient. It should have been 6 AWG. And additional problems maybe created by connecting it to a copper clad ground rod.

Normal is to have lightning strike an antenna - and have no damage.

Scary is that a ten foot ground rod had to be earthed for Verizon. How dangerous is your home? That rod (or equivalent) must always exist for every home. And then upgraded to exceed post 1990 code for effective surge protection. Even a cold water pipe is no longer sufficient for earthing. This post should have many homeowners in the basement inspecting their earth ground system.

[westom]

[quote="CountryBoy"] I sense there is a vast science out there as to the hows and wherefors of proper grounding technologies that I need to learn......[/quote]

And most of it was known 50 and 100 years ago.

A mistake is to assume an electrician will understand this. Either surge energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or appliances are damaged regardless of power strip protectors. Not all electricians are taught principles necessary to understand how this must be wired.

View the ground wire from a breaker box, A bare copper quarter inch wire that any homeowner can inspect. That wire is often runs up over the foundation and down to earth. Sufficient for human safety - what electricians are taught. And compromises earthing for surge protection.

That ground wire is too long, has sharp wire bends going over the foundation, and is bundled with other non-grounding wires. Insufficient earthing. A ground wire must go through foundation and down to single point earth ground. All for something electricians typically do not understand – lower wire impedance.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Above paragraph is one example of how. Where does an APC have any earthing? It doesn't. It only has a safety ground. Hopes you will confuse that with earth ground. See those above requirements for earthing? The APC violates every one – sharp wire bends, bundled with non-grounding wires, etc - many times over. That APC is not earthed. Does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. Protection already inside an adjacent appliances often does better protection.

A protetor is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth ground - that APC - means no effective protection.

How many appliances, that are less robust and not protected by an APC, were damage? How many dishwashers, furnaces, dimmer switches, and clock radios were surge damaged? To know the APC does something also means other less robust appliances are damaged. How many GFCIs were destroyed? Or are those other appliances protected by an invisible surge protector? Why were so many less robust appliances not damaged?

Your concern is a surge that occurs maybe once every seven years. A surge than can overwhelm protection in appliances. So a 'whole house' protector makes a short connection to earth and is rated for 50,000 amps. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. A ‘whole house’ protector is sized to earth direct lightning strikes and remains undamaged.

A sales manager for Intermatic was in Ft Lauderdale when Andrew struck. A high voltage wire dropped on his power wire. No appliance was damaged by that high voltage. The Intermatic 'whole house' protector earthed that AC high voltage long enough for circuit breakers to trip. Another example of why earthing a 'whole house' protector is so effective. And why earthing is so critical to protection. That high voltage wires was hunting for earth. Found earth via the Intermatic protector. Did not go hunting for earth destructively via household appliances.

The Intermatic protected from another surge - which is why we only install protectors sufficient for lightning strikes. To make those destructive and also make less non-destructive transients irrelevant. Effective protector that costs maybe $1 per protected appliance means everything is protected.

Bernd - well over 95% of all lightning struck trees have no apparent damage. Trees may be functioning as lightning protection and you would not know it.

[CountryBoy]

So I have to know more than "an electrician" to solve my problems?

I have a problem Houston....

[westom]

[quote="CountryBoy"]So I have to know more than "an electrician" to solve my problems?[/quote]

Depends on the electrician. Everything posted here is easily understood by a layman. Anyone who can wire a wall receptacle or pop in a circuit breaker can install it. Therefore sold even in Lowes and Home Depot.

Or use this knowledge to learn which electrician knows this stuff. Or to get that electrician to install it correctly.

How hard can it be? A bare copper wire from protector (breaker box) to earth ground must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet') Any 13 year old can follow that wire. Every foot shorter means even better surge protection. If you cannot do that, then why even bother posting. Have your kid do it.

No way around reality. Either you earth a 'whole house' protector. Or you have ineffective protection even with 1000 plug-in protectors throughout the house.

As rcasement said, “GROUND, GROUND, GROUND, the 3 G's of lightning protection.” It is not that difficult. If it is new, then it takes at least three rereads. Everything new requires reading at least than many times. This is probably the first time you have heard of this well proven (100 year old) technology. That means multiple rereads.

You have no idea what is posted if you have not yet gone to Lowes and touched the Cutler-Hammer protector, ten foot ground rods, and 6 AWG bare copper wire. You cannot understand any of this without first touching the stuff. Strange but true.

[LadyGeek]